Is this article racist?

[Tars Tarkas]

i got into an argument on another cite over whether this article is racist or not, and i want to hear what the people here think.

Sister can you lend an ear by Julie Oh.



I am of the opinion that it is racist and seperatist, part of the dividing of America into Us and Them groups that solves none of the real problems. Plus she seems to dismiss candidly footbinding and dismisses other things committed by asian males, but drags out crimes committed by white males from over a hundred years ago. She seems to want Asian women to fight for equality, accept when that equality is the right to date outside their race, then they are traitors. I think the article was ment to be a plea for asian women to not abandon asian men out of stereotypes but was ruined with all the hate rhetoric.

Or am i reading this totally wrong?

[China Guy]

Her quote that kinds sums up the entire arguement for me goes like this:

I recently heard an Asian male say that activist Asian women who date or marry white men are not helping the cause. Many Asian females involved in interracial relationships will argue that who they date is a personal matter, and that it does not take away from their contribution to the community. I disagree.

The minute someone starts saying who you should or should not date along racial, ethnic, gender lines is offensively racist. It is also quite personal as my wife is Chinese, and the implication being that my wife is a whore and/or I'm a domineering loser. Neither of which happen to be remotely true.

She may even have some valid points in that rant about gender relationships and Asian men, but to say the only way to combat racism is for Asians to exclusively date/marry/breed with other Asians completely negates any other message. (Okay, I am inferring the breeding part.)

[kgriffey79]

How is "me so horny" racist? It's an accurate depiction of what happened during the Vietnam War. Have you ever been to a country in southeast Asia? Well, I'll tell ya, that's nothing compared to the real behavior of Asian women to White males.

[Monty]

kg: I'll answer that stunningly ignorant comment with this:

It's racist because it portrays, as you just did, an entire group based on the actions of a few.

[kgriffey79]

Originally posted by Monty
kg: I'll answer that stunningly ignorant comment with this:

It's racist because it portrays, as you just did, an entire group based on the actions of a few.

Did you even read what I wrote? Or did you assume what I meant? Did I ever say that all Asian females are whores? No I didn't. There is nothing wrong with including the "me so horny" line in FMJ. Absolutely nothing. It is truth. That is what happens. Go to Pattaya, Thailand and find out for yourself. I never ever said anything about all Asian women. I just said that, in SE Asian countries, that is what any white male will encounter period. And that was what the movie was showing.

[Monty]

Out of idle curiosity, I checked your proile, kg. It says you're 16 years old. I've been to Korea, Japan, Singapore, Philippines, Thailand, and a few other countries in Asia--all after reaching my adult years.

Let me relate a story about Person A & Person B to you. Pay attention 'cause it might do you some good.

• Person A: Hey, B! How're you doing?
  Person B: Hiya, A! Fine, just fine. By the way, I didn't see you in church last week. Everything okay?
  Person A: Oh, yeah. I just got tired of the church. Most of the folks there, not you of course, were pretty bad.
  Person B: Really? Didn't you just join our church not so long ago?
  Person A: Yep. I got tired of the one I attened before that. Folks there were kind of bad, too. Pretty unwelcoming. And the place I attended before that one wasn't much too friendly either.
  Person B: Ever think it might not be the church?

So, kg: Ever think it might not be the church?

On preview I see the snide comment of yours:

Did you even read what I wrote?

Sure did. You clearly made the behaviour out to be that of the entire group. That's bigotry. Go fetch a dictionary to see what that word means when used by us adults.

Or did you assume what I meant?

Didn't have to assume jack, young'un. You clearly said "the real behavior of Asian women to White males."

Did I ever say that all Asian females are whores?

And exaclty where the dickens did I say you said "whore?" Retract that lie now.

No I didn't.

Nor did I say you did.

There is nothing wrong with including the "me so horny" line in FMJ. Absolutely nothing. It is truth. That is what happens.

As I said, there is something wrong with what you said. That's because it's stereotyping. Go fetch that dictionary referred to above for the definition of that word, also.

Go to Pattaya, Thailand and find out for yourself.

Been there more than once. I've managed to see that there are plenty of people (the majority of the city, actually) who aren't involved in treating White males in any particular manner.

I never ever said anything about all Asian women.

In polite society, this is what's referred to as a lie. You said "real behavior of Asian women to White males." Did you say "some Asian women?" Did you say "a few Asian women?" NO! You said "Asian women." Now, folks who are familiar with the intricacies of the English language are aware that such a construction means the entirety of the group presented (Asian women).

I just said that, in SE Asian countries, that is what any white male will encounter period.

And that's still not all Asian women's behaviour towards all White males.

And that was what the movie was showing.

Still doesn't excuse your racist, sterotypical, stunningly ignorant, and incorrect comments.

[errata]

I don't agree with her but I don't think she's really racist though.

I think she's merely rationalizing her own innate preferences. She said if asians weren't facing oppression then it would be just fine to date who you want. She doesn't criticize white men for dating Asian women, she's trying to convince asian women to give asian men a fair shake. Apparently there is a phonomenon of asian feminists prefering white men that she is addressing.

Ultimately though, I see intermarriage (and dating) as one of the best ways to overcome racism. I don't see how you could see someone for a significant length of time and still consider them a stereotype.

I think she's kind of a whiner. She's more worried about appearing hypocritical than explaining what if any damage interacial dating can cause.

[kgriffey79]

Wow, Monty! I'm sorry I haven't updated my profile in quite a while now. I'm actually 17 and will be 18 in a month and two days.

Thank you so much for educated me Monty. A person of your age and wisdom is so hard to come by. You have certainly helped me out. You taught me the meaning of the word bigotry. And thank you for introducing me to "polite" society.

Thank you for saving me. I don't know how I would enter "adulthood" without your guidance. I would have gone on with my mysogonistic and racist attitudes because I was such a terrible person. Thank you for saving me from the fires of hell. You are my savior.

[you with the face]

In my experience, when members of a racial/ethnic minorty rail against the tide of interracial relationships within their race they are not protesting the actual relationships but rather the motivation (either real or imagined) behind the relationships. But even when love is cited as the motivation, they often chose not to accept that.

I'm not Asian so I'm not aware of how it is to be in that group, but I do empathize with some points the author makes. If an Asian woman's motivation for being with a white man is because he represents things that an Asian man can not, then I could see why that would be an issue. Black people have been battling the same kind of thing, too. Black men-white women relationships are scrutinized by other blacks in part because for decades the white standard of beauty has dominated the media, subliminally telling men that light is right and dark is ugly. So when a significant chunk of the male population gravitates away from that female population, red flags go up. And understandably so, IMO. The Asian perspective may be similar.

But regardless, it's wrong to condemn IRs out of hand. One can not know what goes on in another person's heart and so it is wrong to invalidate normal human feelings by portraying the whole thing as "us vs them". Sometimes people just need to admit that folks are going to shack up with whomever they want to, and it's not necessarily a good or bad thing. It just is.

[Zoe]

From the article:

If we lived in a perfect world where no one group had power over another, no one would have the right to criticize another's dating choice.

As much as I hate busy-bodies who feel that should tell me how wrong I am in my choices, I guess that in the U.S. she does have the right to criticize anything she chooses. But in so doing, she has made racist comments.

I hate stereotypes and generalizations!

[Monty]

You know, kg, your snide comments do you no favours whatsoever. They reflect very badly on you.

That being said, what I was obviously taking issue to was your sweeping generalizations as you stated them. Perhaps you didn't mean to apply that generalization to the entire group; however, your wording certainly shows that intent. If that's not your intent, word it differently--along the lines of "some folks do" or the like.

But from your postings in this thread, especially your smart-aleck last one, I tend to think that I'm right about your stereotyping folks.

[RexDart]

First of all: monty get off kg's tail on this one. He merely asserted that such things do happen. That's not even close to the same thing as saying that everyone participates. You overreacted. If I go to New York and encounter prostitutes, then recount that experience here on SDMB, do I really have to include a frickin' proviso that "of course those women represented a minority of New York's total female population"? C'mon, lighten up a bit. It may very well be a true statement, that such behaviour is encountered there. As that's all he asserted, I don't see the problem.

As for the article, methinks this lady and feistymongol would get along fine. Especialy since she seems so willing to make excuses for the behaviour of people like him.

This quote is telling:

I have heard several progressivist Asian women say they have a problem being described by Asian men as "our women" because it connotates ownership. This mentality has roots in white feminist theory. I have probed many Asian men on their usage of the term "our," and their explanation is that "our" is used as a term to express kinship, and not ownership.

She is clearly identifying race as a factor for making serious life decisions (such as whom to marry/date/etc), on the basis of some allegedly shared "kinship." Go ask a Vietnamese person, a Korean person, a Japanese person, and a Chinese person how much they think they share a kinship, I think you'll find the Asian "race" is an illusion.

And she's hungup on the perceived "emasculation" of Asian men, nevermind that the majority of stereotypes of Asian men is that they're a) brilliant, b) successful, c) studious, d) dedicated. Those are powerful associations, those characteristics are associated with strength and control. I hardly think there's such racism against Asians as demands some sort of racial identity movement among them akin to the people over at stormfront.org. Lest we forget, mixed dating relationships are topica numero uno over there, with much the same attitude taken as this woman takes.

And finally, I have a little distaste for someone who's willing to sell out their gender for their race. Gender is largely a shared experience, and I feel kin to all men on this planet in a way that race can't put barriers into.

Well, at least she didn't start claiming that I shouldn't be allowed to watch Jackie Chan movies because of negative stereotypes...if some woman starts attacking martial arts cinema, she better be ready to fight it out, because I ain't givin' that up!

[SLASH]

Originally posted by China Guy
She may even have some valid points in that rant about gender relationships and Asian men, but to say the only way to combat racism is for Asians to exclusively date/marry/breed with other Asians completely negates any other message. (Okay, I am inferring the breeding part.)

He summed it up rather well.

[Monty]

Drop it yourself, Rex. I've yet to see you say "New York Women are prostitutes." kg did assert that the entirety of Asian women act in a certain manner.

[SLASH]

Maybe he's saying just the women that the soldiers encountered? Either way, I doubt every woman actually did that.

[kgriffey79]

My snide comments do me no good? Look at your second post. You have your share of snide comments. Now granted, I started it, but you are the adult here, right? So I guess that justifies them. Anyway, look, as you probably know because you have been to SE Asia, prostitution is a very different concept. It is accepted and embraced. When the US marines come in to town, port cities boom. Girls from the country come into towns to make money. Things quiet down after the marines leave. Now not all of the prostitutes are of the 'me so horny' kind, but a great deal are. And what do you mean that people in Thailand didn't treat white males in any particular way? Come on now. How politically correct are you trying to be? People jump all over you(which probably has nothign to do with the SE asia, its just the 3rd world). People would yell at you "hey man, hey dude". Spitting out the english they get from movies to sell you something. The Sope men that chase you and give you those cards (I don't know how to spell Sope, or if you know what one it). Or the barmaidens on Beach Road that scream at you when you walk by(you say you've been to pattaya, im talkin about beach road before walking street, where the entire side of the street is just bars). That's just the way it is.
If there were a 'me so horny' attitude, it would have nothign to do with being Asian racially (since this is what the post is about before it got sidetracked). I know plenty of Asian people and not a single one is like that (well except for one, but her daddy probly touched her ). Anyway, the point is, well shit, what is the point.
Racism is defined as The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. by dictinary.com But I dont really like that definition because it makes me a racist. I mean shit, I think Asian people are generally smarter than white folks. And black people are more athletic. It's just the way it is. But who really cares? Jealousy is the cause of prejuicide, we should focus on ourself and our own abilities.

[occ]

The article has little of value in it. Everyone's read countless uninformed-college-activist papers with the same content. She says that one reason she dates Asian men is for "political reasons" (uh, I bet your boyfriend would love hearing that he was chosen to advance your political agenda). She paints mild slights (lyrics in a Bloodhound Gang song? Sheesh.) as "oppression". She uses awkward, elitist-intellectual phrasing like "The emasculated demonized Asian man is but the flip side to the same racist coin that portrays Asian women as helpless exotic sexually adroit lotus blossums.". She refers to "fighting the system". She repeatedly states that whites have "privileges and power over Asians" (er..uh..I guess I was unaware that I posessed such power. Can I use it to have sex with these exotic sexually adroit lotus blossoms?). She states that the "phenomenon" of Asian-Female / White-Male couplings "supports an oppressive system that places white men above Asian men." (uh, how, exactly? I love non-sequiters.). She refers to chastity belts, the use of which was largely a tittilating myth. She throws out the tired feminist rhetoric that the oppressive male culture forces women to wear sexually alluring outfits and accessories. I'm only about halfway down, and most every line is either a tired cliche, a logical error, or a statement that belies an ignorance of history.

Crappy article. Dubious premise. Preaching to the choir.

Racist? Ehh, who knows. It's a stupid term, and little more than name-calling in this day and age.

[erislover]

I certainly didn't infer an "all" quantification in his post. YMMV.

The article clearly wants us to make decisions based on race. Can't get much more racist than that.

[Monty]

Originally posted by kgriffey79
My snide comments do me no good? Look at your second post. You have your share of snide comments. Now granted, I started it, but you are the adult here, right? So I guess that justifies them.

Actually, mine wasn't a snide comment. You prove that you had no justification.

Anyway, look, as you probably know because you have been to SE Asia, prostitution is a very different concept. It is accepted and embraced.

Yes, I've been there. I also know that it's not accepted and embraced by the population as a necessity. Some parts of the society accept it and those are the folks who are exploiting the prostitutes.

When the US marines come in to town, port cities boom. Girls from the country come into towns to make money. Things quiet down after the marines leave.

Thanks for implying that the Marines are whoremongers. Yes, some Servicemembers frequent prostitutes and that still, in the world of Logic & Reality, doesn't mean that all Servicemembers do. At any rate, there are other ways to make money off of the folks arriving via ship.

Now not all of the prostitutes are of the 'me so horny' kind, but a great deal are.

I'm about fed up with you hoisting this canard. That's not what I was talking about when I made the comment I made to you. I was making the comment about, and this time I'll put it in quotes, italics, and even bold it for you so just maybe this time you'll realize what bigoted comment of yours I'm talking about:

Well, I'll tell ya, that's nothing compared to the real behavior of Asian women to White males.

And what do you mean that people in Thailand didn't treat white males in any particular way? Come on now.

You really should try reading for comprehension on occasion. Here's your first reading comprension test: Did I say that "people in Thailand didn't treat white males in any particular way" or did I actually say "I've managed to see that there are plenty of people (the majority of the city, actually) who aren't involved in treating White males in any particular manner." There is a world of difference in what you pretend I say and what I actually did say.

How politically correct are you trying to be?

Not at all. What I'm trying to do is point out to you your lies about what you say I said.

People jump all over you(which probably has nothign to do with the SE asia, its just the 3rd world). People would yell at you "hey man, hey dude". Spitting out the english they get from movies to sell you something. The Sope men that chase you and give you those cards (I don't know how to spell Sope, or if you know what one it). Or the barmaidens on Beach Road that scream at you when you walk by(you say you've been to pattaya, im talkin about beach road before walking street, where the entire side of the street is just bars). That's just the way it is.
If there were a 'me so horny' attitude, it would have nothign to do with being Asian racially (since this is what the post is about before it got sidetracked). I know plenty of Asian people and not a single one is like that (well except for one, but her daddy probly touched her ). Anyway, the point is, well shit, what is the point.

Good question: what is your point? Do you actually have one?

Look, the whore houses are populated by whores. Who would've thought? The majority of Pattaya Beach is not a whorehouse. As I've said, I've been there and I even got to see some of the city and some of the countryside.

Racism is defined as The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. by dictinary.com But I dont really like that definition because it makes me a racist.

Just because you don't like the fact that you're a racist doesn't make you not a racist. If you don't want to be a racist, cease being one.

I mean shit, I think Asian people are generally smarter than white folks.

Care to provide an honest citation for this absurd comment?

And black people are more athletic.

Or this one?

It's just the way it is.

Really? Prove it.

But who really cares?

Why, those of us who aren't impressed by falsehoods and ignorance, of course.

Jealousy is the cause of prejuicide, we should focus on ourself and our own abilities.

Silly me, I always thought ignorance was the cause of prejudice.

Rex: Still think I'm overreacting?

[Tars Tarkas]

I'm going to side with Monty on this catfight, despite the fact that he has the same nickname as a crazy stalker ex-girlfriend and i usually avoid him (no offense). Especially with that last ejaculation. kgriffey79, have you been to Asia?

Thanks to all of you for your input.

[Leaper]

As a person of Asian descent, I would like to assure kgriffey79 that Asians certainly are NOT generally more intelligent than any other person of any other race. I could hold up plenty of examples, including myself and many of the people I associated with in school back in the halcyon days of my childhood. Sure, many Asian immigrants, wanting to give the best life possible for their children, lives they did not have in their home country, push their children in academic matters harder than many American parents. But then, this phenomenon is not limited to Asians, is it?

As for blacks being more athletic, that line of bull has been addressed many times here. Suffice it to say that this stereotype is more blatantly harmful than the previous, since deep belief in it limits options.

At any rate, this forum has already addressed how any stereotype, "positive" or not, is insulting. I'll see if I can't dig one such thread up...

[Monty]

Tars: May I ask what you mean by "that last ejaculation?"

[Tars Tarkas]

i meant that last spewing of dialouge. I've been reading ERB again, he uses that term alot.

[Monty]

So now I have to ask: What do you mean by "that last spewing of dialogue?" Plus: Who's ERB?

[Super Gnat]

ERB = Edgar Rice Burroughs. Wrote Tarzan, among other things.

[Monty]

Thanks, Super Gnat. For a moment there (well, a couple of days, what with the SDMB being down), I was afraid that Tars was reading burps.

[Tars Tarkas]

this:

I think Asian people are generally smarter than white folks. And black people are more athletic. It's just the way it is. But who really cares? Jealousy is the cause of prejuicide, we should focus on ourself and our own abilities.

And ERB also wrote a little series invovling John Carter on Mars, where he met a guy named Tars Tarkas....

[jeevmon]

Originally posted by RexDart
And she's hungup on the perceived "emasculation" of Asian men, nevermind that the majority of stereotypes of Asian men is that they're a) brilliant, b) successful, c) studious, d) dedicated. Those are powerful associations, those characteristics are associated with strength and control. I hardly think there's such racism against Asians as demands some sort of racial identity movement among them akin to the people over at stormfront.org. Lest we forget, mixed dating relationships are topica numero uno over there, with much the same attitude taken as this woman takes.

OK, speaking as an Asian man (family from India), I think some points are worth making with respect to the "emasculation" of Asian men.

I grew up in a smallish university town with a fairly substantial Indian population. The university was the main reason for that - it was the largest employer in town, and also had a high proportion of employees whose jobs (whether academic or professional) required a higher level of education. So, there was a substantial Indian population, as well as Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese, etc. For now, I'm just going to focus on the Indian population.

I grew up with a number of Indian women in my age group, or near enough. The community was substantial, but was not so big that people didn't mostly know each other. So I pretty much knew all of the Indian girls in my age group in my community.

To date, not one of them has married an Indian man. Zero, zilch, nada. Not a single one. Also, to date, the young Indian men that I went to school with are mostly unmarried, but the few who did marry tended to marry in their race. (Full disclosure - I am happily dating a white woman, so I'm the exception. I'm nevertheless pretty familiar with the rule.)

The reality that Indian men certainly face (and, to read the postings on other boards, Asian men generally) is that Indian women tend to date and marry outside their race at a far greater rate than Indian men. (And, again, Asian men generally. See the study cited here for background). Indeed, there is a sizeable portion of Indian women (and, again, Asian women generally) who have no desire to date and marry Indian men (and, again, Asian men generally). As an anecdotal example, there are exactly two ads in this week's Chicago Reader Matches for Women Seeking Men placed by women who self-identify as Asian. Both invite responses from single white men.

Now, the reasons for this are obviously a complex pastiche. Some critics hold that Asian women are simply seeking status and assimilation by dating and marrying outside their race. If the critic is forgiving, they may try to lay the blame on patriarchal Asian societies that deny women autonomy, and marriage outside the race being a means of escaping that bondage. This belief is especially true with Indian women because of the ongoing practice of arranging marriages, which is still viewed from the outside as a restriction on the woman's rights, not the man's. Some blame the men (who tend to be white men) for having "yellow fever" or "Asian woman fetish." Some blame white women for failing to meet the needs of white men. (More on this below.)

But the bigger question becomes - why don't the numbers flow the other way? Why aren't Asian men outmarrying at rates comparable to Asian women? Again, complex web of reasons. Some would say that Asian men are conditioned by their parents or their culture to focus on studies at the expense of athletic or social activities. (The former of which can help build sex appeal, and the latter of which can help build social skills useful for meeting and interacting with people). There's some truth to that. But the bottom line is that Asian men do not draw the same level of attention from non-Asian women as Asian women attract from non-Asian men. (Again, the personals are a good anecdotal example, as they are replete with ads from women who self-identify as white and who invite responses from single white men.)

But ignoring the roles of media portrayals would be a mistake. Asian women tend to be much more visible in the mainstream media and entertainment industries than Asian men. (examples- Lucy Liu, Lisa Ling, Lauren Tom, Connie Chung, Amy Tan, Ming-Na Wen). Asian men, by comparison, are relatively invisible. When they are shown, they are either shown as nerdy, horny guys (Eddie Chin in the "American Pie" movies, Mickey Rooney's Mr. Yunioshi in "Breakfast at Tiffany's"), sexless martial arts masters (Jackie Chan), as villains (e.g. Dr. Fu-Manchu, Oddjob), or as sidekicks or comic relief (the Indian doctor in the "Short Circuit" movies and the Indian programmer in "Office Space" come to mind). Some are slowly starting to cross over (e.g. Chow Yun-Fat), but it's still a rare phenomenon. More importantly, Asian men are not typically shown in sexual roles, except to the extent that they are the geeky guys who want sex but never get it. Jackie Chan may kick a lot of ass, but in his American movies at least, he doesn't get much of it.

Moreover, Asian female-white male relationships are portrayed in the media as acceptable and normal. Connie Chung and Amy Tan both have Caucasian husbands, Lucy Liu rose to prominence in a role where she dated a white lawyer (on Ally McBeal), and she has since been in a movie (and its forthcoming sequel) in which she is dating a white man (Matt Le Blanc, "Charlie's Angels"). Lauren Tom had a prominent role on "Friends" in which she was dating Ross, a white man. Kristin Kreuk (who is half-Chinese in real life) dated an all-American white football jock on her show, and is now pining for all-American hero Clark Kent.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Asian female- white male relationships are bad or are something that should be condemned or should be the subject of "very special episodes" every time they occur. But . . . the instances in the media in which an Asian man is shown dating, marrying, or even screwing a white woman are virtually nil. I'm not going to say it never happens, but it's certainly less high-profile than the examples I've cited.

There are also more pernicious, lingering stereotypes of both Asian women and Asian men that play into this. Asian women, for example, are still viewed by many as submissive, sexually adept, and less choosy than their Caucasian counterparts. (There is an observable phenomenon of geeky white guys with gorgeous Asian girlfriends, so I'm sure there are geeky white guys who believe they have a better chance with Asian women than women of their own race.) Asian men are viewed as unromantic, overly studious, nerdy, perpetually horny, and as having small penises. (Yes, you do hear that last one.)

Even though a lot of us think we're better than that, our view of the world is shaped by the media, and often times our education as to "what is sexy" comes from the media. For a number of Asian men, therefore, there is a double-screwage that goes on. First, Asian women, with whom we share a common cultural heritage, are more predisposed to outmarry. They exist in a culture where this is considered normal and where the mainstream media supports this as normal. So they are cut off from a good chunk of women that would be potential partners. But then they also do not get the same leve of interest from non-Asian women as their female counterparts get from non-Asian men. And they (Asian men) exist in a culture where the mainstream media . . . barely shows them at all, certainly not in a sexual light.

RexDart cites stereotypes of Asian men as hardworking, industrious, dedicated, etc. Assuming those stereotypes do exist, they're still not all that helpful. First off, there is no comparable stereotype of white men as not being any of those things. (this is a contrast with African-American and Latino men, where there are such stereotypes). Second, "hardworking", "industrious" etc. are hardly attributes that set the bed afire. Those are qualities that are admired, but are still not generally viewed as "sexy" qualities. Desirable yes, but sexy, not so much.

Now, I'd be the last person to suggest that interracial dating is bad or should be condemned. (Three major relationships - only one with an Asian). But, at the very least, I think the article cited in the OP challenges those Asian women who refuse to date Asian men (and they do exist and are fairly numerous) to take a look at themselves and ask themselves why they make those choices. Are they harboring stereotypes that are unfair and perpetuate the continued invisibility and marginalization of Asian men from the romantic and sexual spheres? Should they perhaps broaden their horizons?

It's always a touchy issue when the issue of Asian female- white male relationships come up, and often times Asian men come off sounding like racists when they voice frustration at the prevalence of these relationships. But there are legitimate gripes not so much with the relationships, but with the stereotypes and media portrayals that play into them, and the kinds of visibility that Asian men do not enjoy.

[cuauhtemoc]

The linked article is one of those shrill, annoying calls to revolution that uses tired rhetoric to agitate people. If I were the type to get offended by things I read on the internet, I definitely would be offended by it.

jeevmon's post makes a lot of the same points as the article, but acknowledges the complexity of the phenomena in question.

Isn't it funny how the words you choose to make a point can be either harsh and offensive or thoughtful and insightful? It depends on one's motivation, I guess. The article is basically agit-prop, while jeevmon's post is analytical and intelligent. It seems like he cares about understanding the issue, while Julia Oh thinks she already understands everything, couldn't possibly understand it any better, and wants to browbeat people into thinking and behaving like herself.

[irishgirl]

maybe i'm being really "out there" with this, but here goes.

from some friends of mine.

Case 1.
asian guy, parents keep sending him photos of indian girls so that they can arrange his marriage.
his response is always that he wants to be with a girl who is not afraid to stand up for herself, will be his equal, and won't expect him to be "the man". so he dates white girls, not exclusively, but mostly.

Case 2
asian girl, recently broke up with her white boyfriend.
reason being " i thought he's treat me as an equal, but he expected me to be totally submissive, i'm not".

Case 3
asian girl. dates guys, no racial preferences.
she says that she'll go out with the "modern" asian guys, but wouldn't touch the "traditional" ones, likewise she's staying far away from the sexist white guys.

surely race is unimportant if the couple have a loving relationship based on respect and equality?

or am i being stupid?

[you with the face]

jeevmon, excellent job at telling things from an Indian male perspective. I think many people aren't attuned enough to see the kinds of things you talked about (especially the different ways Asian men and women are portrayed and stereotyped), and are therefore likely to scoff at the notion that anything other than innocent romance plays a role in some of these IRs.

But the bigger question becomes - why don't the numbers flow the other way? Why aren't Asian men outmarrying at rates comparable to Asian women? Again, complex web of reasons. Some would say that Asian men are conditioned by their parents or their culture to focus on studies at the expense of athletic or social activities. (The former of which can help build sex appeal, and the latter of which can help build social skills useful for meeting and interacting with people). There's some truth to that. But the bottom line is that Asian men do not draw the same level of attention from non-Asian women as Asian women attract from non-Asian men. (Again, the personals are a good anecdotal example, as they are replete with ads from women who self-identify as white and who invite responses from single white men.)

I see this too in my own racial group, except the imbalance goes the other way. You make very good points.

[jeevmon]

Originally posted by irishgirl
maybe i'm being really "out there" with this, but here goes.

from some friends of mine.

Case 1.
asian guy, parents keep sending him photos of indian girls so that they can arrange his marriage.
his response is always that he wants to be with a girl who is not afraid to stand up for herself, will be his equal, and won't expect him to be "the man". so he dates white girls, not exclusively, but mostly.

Case 2
asian girl, recently broke up with her white boyfriend.
reason being " i thought he's treat me as an equal, but he expected me to be totally submissive, i'm not".

Case 3
asian girl. dates guys, no racial preferences.
she says that she'll go out with the "modern" asian guys, but wouldn't touch the "traditional" ones, likewise she's staying far away from the sexist white guys.

surely race is unimportant if the couple have a loving relationship based on respect and equality?

or am i being stupid?

No, you're not. If a relationship is based on love, trust, respect, equality, etc., then it is solid and should not be condemned simply because the people involved happen to be of different races.

I am going to take a stab that with a handle like "irishgirl", you did not have the joy of growing up male and Asian in late 20th century America. So you probably have not had the experience of having women of your own cultural background reject you simply because you are of your own cultural background. It does happen. It happens quite a bit. I would say most Asian men at one point in their lives have encountered Asian women (yes, plural) who only to date white men or who refuse to date Asian men. And the reasons given often reflect embedded stereotypes about Asian men (they're too nerdy, they're sexist, they're not romantic, they're not endowed, they're mama's boys, etc., etc.)

To take your case studies:

Case 1 seems to be a case of stereotyping about both Indian women and white women, namely, that Indian women are submissive and don't stand up for themselves. (and I have to say - where was he raised? Seriously. Pretty much every Indian household I've been in, including my own, is strongly matriarchal. But maybe that's a phenomenon associated with education and income.) And that white women do. His list of criteria is not faulty, but maybe he's building in some stereotypes.

Case 2 seems to be the case of the white guy having Asian woman fetish and wanting a submissive girl. He probably is a serial Asian-dater. Can't draw too many conclusions about your friend, though, because it's not clear if she only dates white guys or not.

Case 3 seems to be the most healthy because she's looking for a certain set of values and recognizes that there are Asian guys out there (the "modern" ones) who share those values.

[Eva Luna]

Well, jeevmon, here’s one (more or less; don’t Jews count as a minority group anymore?) white girl checking in who would have absolutely no problem dating an Asian guy, at least in principle, stereotypes be damned. In fact, I guess that with one half-Japanese guy in my somewhat non-extensive dating history, Asian guys are overrepresented in terms of their share of the Chicago-area population. Hell, I also went out with a nice Chinese guy last Saturday, and will probably go out with him again once he’s back in town. And FWIW, if Chow-Yun Fat asked me out, I’d sure as hell give it a try! (Then again, two of my major turnons are brains and prominent cheekbones, which may tend to skew my dating sample somewhat according to your analysis, at least about the brains part.)

I would, however, when dating ANYONE from a background dissimilar to mine, keep my eyes wide open for any indication of whether he would be less likely to take the relationship seriously because of potential cultural conflicts, particularly if his family was very against the idea of him being seriously involved with someone of a different background.

And on that subject, may I just mention how sick I am of certain elements in my family (Mom and Grandmom, are you out there?) telling me how I should make a bigger effort to date Jewish guys, because they are good providers and considerate and egalitarian? Not that I would automatically reject a Jewish guy, but the ones I’ve dated have been all over the map in terms of consideration and common values. Whatever happened to judging people as individuals?

As to the OP: it's reminiscent of those African-American women who think that any African-American man who dates a white woman is a traitor to his race. (I'm a little sensitive on that one, because I think the last time my sister dated a white guy was in high school.) In short, I can understand their concerns, but in the end I think it's just as racist, albeit in a somewhat more subtle and convoluted way.

[jeevmon]

Eva Luna, I'm not saying that there aren't white women who would date Asian men. Heck, you of all people should know that I can't plausibly make that kind of statement.

And the idea that being in an interracial relationship destroys any right to advocate on behalf of your race is a pernicious one.

But I don't think it's at all racist to suggest that those who refuse to date within their race should examine why they do that and whether that decision is based on stereotypes from which we should be moving away. As the OP suggested, this appeared to be where the Oh article was trying to go, but it got kind of lost in a lot of rhetoric about pride and struggle.

[Eva Luna]

jeevmon, believe me, I'm in no position to argue against your thesis in any kind of comprehensive way; I was just trying to reassure y'all that it isn't hopeless! (Well, that, and if you've been holding out on fixing me up with some nice Asian friend of yours because you somehow think I'm holding out for a Nice Jewish Boy, you don't have to anymore.)

And well, there are certainly those who think my sister is discriminating against Jewish, or even white, guys because she's dated exclusively African-American guys for the last 10+ years. (OK, I wish the specific individuals she's picked were less jerkish, but that has nothin to do with their race.) And there are those who think I can't speak for Jewish pride because I most recently dated a couple of Catholic guys, or who think I have no pride in my heritage because I had a serious relationship with a Muslim. Needless to say, there are all sorts of complex issues mixed up in romantic attraction, but I think they should be judged on the individual level, not the macro-level.

[cuauhtemoc]

Originally posted by jeevmon
But I don't think it's at all racist to suggest that those who refuse to date within their race should examine why they do that and whether that decision is based on stereotypes from which we should be moving away.

I agree. I had a roommate who was Korean, and he used to say that he was absolutely not attracted to Asian women in the least. Not only that, but the only women he was attracted to were blonde, blue-eyed Barbie types. Was this just his aesthetic preference, or was his psyche marbled with misogyny and self-loathing? It's not my place to make that judgement, but he could probably benefit from a little critical thinking about his preferences. Of course, he could probably have benefited from a little critical thinking about a lot of other aspects of his personality as well. So could we all, I suppose, but some of us more than others.

[Tars Tarkas]

i enjoyed your response jeevmon, i think cuauhtemoc summed up what you said rather nicely vs. the linked article. I grew up in an interacial home, faced prejudice and severed family ties because of it, and now have become more sensitive when people bring up interracial dating and start carting out the old "traitor to their race" argument.

[Eva Luna]

Originally posted by cuauhtemoc
I agree. I had a roommate who was Korean, and he used to say that he was absolutely not attracted to Asian women in the least. Not only that, but the only women he was attracted to were blonde, blue-eyed Barbie types. Was this just his aesthetic preference, or was his psyche marbled with misogyny and self-loathing? It's not my place to make that judgement, but he could probably benefit from a little critical thinking about his preferences. Of course, he could probably have benefited from a little critical thinking about a lot of other aspects of his personality as well. So could we all, I suppose, but some of us more than others.

Come to think of it, the same was true of the half-Asian guy I dated briefly. I may have even been the lone brunette he ever dated (I've known him since high school; we dated briefly one summer while I was in college). He ended up marrying a very nice, but rather ditzy blonde woman (he is smart as hell, and I could never understand how he could marry someone who wasn't even close to being his intellectual equal). I met her a couple of times, and while there was, shall we say, an obvious physical attraction, all of our old group of friends predicted it wouldn't last. (It didn't; last I heard, they were in divorce proceedings after less than a year of marriage).

Well, I hope he sorts out all his issues eventually; he is a really nice guy.

[Dragon Ash]

jeevmon's post was fascinating, because I can't honestly remember ever seeing a mixed marriage/couple where the male or female was Indian.

KG's points are perhaps true - to an extent that it would only be even remotely relevant to the small portion of the populations in Asia that interacted/interacts with the military and/or tourists. Especially military guys. No, I don't think military guys are whoremongers. I do think, however, that a) when it is mostly guys visiting, b) the country in question is quite a bit poorer than the country the guys are from, and c) said guys have been fighting and without female companionship for days/weeks/months on end, yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if a booming prostitution business was the end result.

Sadly, and unfortunately, in many countries prostitution is seen (both by the woman, or her family) as a way out of poverty. It is fairly easy to see how horny, hormone-challenged kids in the military years ago took home the stereotype of sex-crazed Asian nymphs after being surrounded by pretty young things willing to do the horizontal bop. Compared to their girls back home - probably sexually uptight from the Christian upbringing that said 'sex was bad/evil/dirty', they guys probably felt like they were in heaven.

The problem, of course, is equating 'willing' with 'eager' - by and large, the girls weren't horny, they were poor and hungry. I know, however, that males want to believe that the prostitutes they meet or the women in porn the watch, are horny, eager participants. I guess it makes it easier on the conscience.

I don't think I am being racist here, I am just trying to describe how I think the modern stereotype evolved.

Anyway - I did have another point here somewhere ah, yes. Asian women. Hong Kong women, Korean women, Japanese women - all COMPLETELY different. Lumping them together under one big "Asian" umbrella is just stupid.

Now, these are only my personal experiences, and in no way am I certain that they are 100% accurate representations of the country(ies) as a whole. That said, conversations with friends, etc. confirms at least for me that white guys do indeed seem to have similiar experiences. And while I have lived with women from Japan and the US, I have never lived with women from Hong Kong or elsewhere, so unfortunately I can really talk about and make comparisons based on my experiences dating.

First - yes, it has been my experience that Japanese women are much more willing to have sex. Not necessarily because they are 'hornier'. Or sluttier. But because they have fewer hang-ups about it. Interestingly enough, Western guys are not the only ones to believe that Japanese women are horny babes willing to put out anytime, any place - my Chinese friends in Hong Kong were almost as annoying in pleading with me to introduce them to Japanese women. In fact, many of my Chinese co-workers knew Japanese porn stars by name. (I didn't, and still don't - not because I am so pure of heart, no doubt, but because I am simply bad with names

Unfortunately, Westerners (especially Americans) are so uptight about sex that I think they equate "no hang upgs" with "being a slut". And nothing could be further from the truth. I met one wonderful woman many years ago, we had sex about four hours after we met. We dated for almost four years after that. Was she 'easy'? Or a 'slut'? Hardly. One of my roommates in uni spent six months chasing a (white) girl, eventually slept with her, and dumped her the next week. But maybe that's another post.

My impression was that Hong Kong women were far 'harder' to get into bed - and that may be one reason why Japanese women were so popular with Hong Kong guys

Now that I think about it - maybe one reason Japanese women are 'easier' to score: by and large, Japanese women can drink. And they like going out. Most Hong Kong women (and men, for that matter) couldn't drink.

But after 15 years in Japan, I would have to say that in general, a white or black guy in Japan will find it easier to get laid than in the US. Doesn't mean Japanese women are sluts. Doesn't mean they are hornier. Just means they have fewer hang-ups. KG's posts were wrong and offensive because he saw only half the equation, and automatically gave it completely different, offensive overtones.

And it certainly doesn't mean that Japanese women will have sex with anybody, anytime, anywhere. In other words - guys asking to be introduced to a Japanese girl because he obviously wants a quick lay - that ticks me off. You still have to get her to like you, treat her with respect, etc. - quite frankly, Japanese women can be very feminine, but can still chew you up and turn you into mincemeat in a hurry - anyone wanting the 'typical, shy, passive, Japanese girl' is in for a very rude awakening when he gets her home. She still has to LIKE you, and last time I checked, what girls like in guys is pretty universal.

How can I explain it? Let me put it this way - in the states, I think girls meet lots of guys that they would like to have sex with, but for a variety of reasons - religion, health, parents told them sex was dirty, whatever - they are hesitant. In Japan, they generally don't have the former or latter (certainly the health factor is very much a concern). So where the US woman may reject a physical relationship, the Japanese woman may be more comfortable with it. Simple as that.

I hope I have made my point without pissing any people off.

I should also note that before I came back to NY, I thought I had a 'thing' for Asian women. Interestingly, after coming back to NY, I find that no, I have a thing for women, period Although since finding the LOML, I am not interested in even looking at any other menus

[Dragon Ash]

I realize that my last post may give out the wrong idea - jeevmon's post was fascinating, period - not just because I hadn't seen an Indian mixed couple.

Intelligent, lucid, thoughtful and thought-provoking - one of the best-written posts I have seen in a long while.

[aahala]

IMO, the cited article is not best described as racist, but a personal rant. The author seems to have some chip on her shoulder, perhaps due to some personal experience that turned bad, which she has rightly or wrongly attributed to race.

Some of her comments were good and some bad, but when someone pitches a fit like that, you shouldn't try to over analysis each word or sentence.

[Dragon Ash]

Originally posted by jeevmon
Case 2 seems to be the case of the white guy having Asian woman fetish and wanting a submissive girl. He probably is a serial Asian-dater.

Why does this have to be a 'fetish'? If a white guy only dates blonde white girls, does he have a blonde white woman fetish? Is he a 'serial White dater?

I have never understood why liking certain characteristics that mean you date in your race are 'preferences', but liking certain characteristics that take you out of your race are suddenly 'fetishes'.

When I was in high school and through early uni, I loved girls with short hair. Don't know why. Just did. So most of my girl friends had short or medium-length hair. Doesn't mean that was the only condition I wanted filled before dating someone. Doesnt' mean that non-short haired girls weren't up for consideration <g>. I didn't consider it a 'short hair fetish'.

Nowadays I find myself rather partial to long hair. So of course the LOML cut her hair really short about a month before we actually met

[jeevmon]

Originally posted by Dragon Ash
Why does this have to be a 'fetish'? If a white guy only dates blonde white girls, does he have a blonde white woman fetish? Is he a 'serial White dater?

I have never understood why liking certain characteristics that mean you date in your race are 'preferences', but liking certain characteristics that take you out of your race are suddenly 'fetishes'.

This may be semantics as to what we consider a fetish, but here's why I made the comments I did:

The Asian girl's criticism - "he wanted someone who was totally submissive" - suggested that he is seeking out and desires submissive women. Asian women have frequently been stereotyped as submissive and docile, a characteristic not usually associated with females of other ethnic groups. The guy is white, and there are white men who actively seek out and date only Asian women for a variety of reasons, many of them having to do with fairly offensive but pervasive stereotypes about Asian women (submissive, wild in bed, etc.) We call those "serial Asian daters." (There are other, more perjorative terms, but that's neither here nor there.)

A white guy who associates certain characteristics (e.g. low intelligence, promiscuity) with blondes and seeks out blonde women as a result has the same kinds of issues as the guy who exclusively seeks out Asian women because he views them as submissive. I would view our blonde dater as a serial blonde dater and as having blonde woman fetish. There's no real difference between our blonde dater and our Asian dater except . . . that a white man who exclusively dates blonde white women is not seen as meaningfully reducing the dating opportunities for other white men, whereas a white man who only dates Asian women is seen as reducing the dating opportunities for Asian men. (A feeling that is not entirely unjustified given the relative outmarriage rates.)

The lingo comes up less in relationships where both parties are of the same race or ethnic background because those relationships are generally accepted.

[JThunder]

Originally posted by you with the face
jeevmon, excellent job at telling things from an Indian male perspective. I think many people aren't attuned enough to see the kinds of things you talked about (especially the different ways Asian men and women are portrayed and stereotyped), and are therefore likely to scoff at the notion that anything other than innocent romance plays a role in some of these IRs.

Isn't that the truth!

I've occasionally commented that Asian men are at a severe romantic disadvantage in today's society. I've said that Asian women are in great demand among non-Asians, but very few non-Asian women are willing to date Asian men. People usually react with, "Really? I didn't notice" or "That can't be true, can it?"

On one occasion, I heard someone respond, "I can't believe you said that. Asian men are every bit as popular as non-Asian men." Obviously, this guy had no clue.

I even heard one woman say, "Oh, no, no! You're wrong. There are plenty of interracial marriages," after which she rattled off a list of interracial pairings that she knew. After listening to her rattle on, I interjected and said, "Wait a minute. Listen to yourself. Every single one of those couples you mentioned involves an Asian female. Not a single one involves an Asian male."

So yes, I think that most people don't notice how Asian men are marginalized in terms of romance.

[Eva Luna]

Some food for thought:

In Asian-American households of various flavors, how is the desireability of cultural assimilation of boys viewed differently from that of girls?
(Or is it?)

Would your "average" (and I know, it's hard to define "average" in any meaningful way here) set of Asian parents be more upset at their son marrying a white woman, or at their daughter marrying a white man?

[irishgirl]

jeevmon, you kinda said what i was trying to say, the building on stereotypes thing wasn't helpful to anyone, and the third girl has it about right.

and no, i'm not asian and male, but i'm not "white" either.
being somewhat racially ambiguous i've got a fair amont of the "gook bitch", "me so horny" comments in my time, so i can at least empathise.

[cherry]

most of the southasian males I have known in America had the opposite experience of jeevmon and had only dated white females.. some cited it as a matter of location and others said it was their preference (something about blondes being more desirable to them) but never did they complain about not being able to date asian girls, if they wanted any one of them could of had an arranged marriage to an asian girl whenever they wanted.., but I guess there was a cultural expectation that they should but it was not really enforced because they were guys and could get away with dating whomever they wanted.

[RexDart]

Just a thought, even if it might be controversial....

I think we should make it clear that there's nothing wrong with wanting a submissive girl, any more than there is with wanting a take-charge sort of girl, or with wanting a roughly equal partner. I see no reason why any of those three styles of relationships won't work, as long as they aren't abusive. Some people like to lead, others like to follow. As long as the followers don't feel coerced into following and are free to speak their own interests and desires when they choose to do so even though they may prefer not to do that usually, if submissiveness is just an attribute of their own nature, there's no problem with it.

That being said, I think there's a certain practical reason for looking to date within or without a particular race. If in your experience the type of girls you are looking for tend to be of a particular race, it's only expedient to give a little more attention to people of that race in seeking a relationship. Race is of course not a determining factor in the absolute sense, but you can theoretically play the percentages and guess that a person of a certain race is more likely to have grown up in a certain environment or with certain cultural attitudes shaping their youth, and those things are somewhat legitimate predictors of a person's nature. Not foolproof or absolute, but a predictor. You will of course find that not all women of that race, even if you guess right about cultural upbringing, have the qualities you're looking for (unless it's physical attraction, nothing wrong with finding some attributes more attractive than others, and that would justify dating one race exclusively, as someone said it's just like dating only blonds.)

Race is no hard and fast rule for predicting a person's attributes other than the physical ones. Still, if you've found that women of race A tend to have the qualities you're looking for and women of race B tend not to, it only makes sense to at least focus more attention on race A. There's only so much time in the day, after all, and there are alot of girls you could put your attention towards, and most of them are going to turn out to be unavailable or otherwise unwilling to pursue a relationship. It's simply impossible to ascertain the true nature of every single person you meet. Racial features are an easy characteristic to identify for the most part, you can narrow the subset of women in any group you encounter to those of that race with relative ease and thus increase your chances of finding a woman who will be what you want. You may very well miss out on a more perfect woman by doing so, but you would be playing the percentages. You are trying to minimize the likelihood that you will spend a couple months dating someone and then realize they are incompatible with you. It will still happen, but considering the percentages it will happen less often.

In short, I think the motive behind choosing a particular race to date is what's important. If the motive for excluding a race is the belief that people of that race are, in the entirety, inferior to others, that's a bad motive. If the motice for dating only those within your own race is "racial purity" or "racial pride" or the desire to avoid "betraying" one's race, that too is a bad motive. If it's just a benign choice based on an accurate formulation of possibilities, I see nothing wrong with it. It's recognizing a correlation in a certain percentage of cases, which is not the same as racist reasoning which identifies race as a cause and therefore universal. We have decided as a society that we can't let corporations play the percentage game with race in their hiring, because everyone deserves a fair shot to prove their worth. With dating, nobody deserves a chance in the same fundamental way, the only person potentially hurt by your act of overlooking somebody on basis of their race is you yourself. You're just gambling to achieve an objective. It may not be the method I would adopt, but I don't begrudge anybody else his privilege to do that.

[Harborwolf]

I think the article in question was racist. As an admittedly white (oh so white) male, I have absolutely no experience with racism or not having women date me because I was white. My lack of experience in this matter does not change the fact that this women argued for (though she danced around it) race segregation if only in the romantic sense. She also made some broad generalisations about a group of people based on the behavior of a few.

Speaking personally, neither myself or any of my white male friends have done anything to keep any race or gender down (excepting the filthy irish, but nobody likes them ). What I find mildly disturbing is the fact that this has become a debate. If a white man wrote this article, it would be racist without question. Since it is an asian woman.....

My thought is that by paying such extraordinarily close attention to something like this, we give it power. Maybe if we stopped paying attention to what color is dating what color, we wouldn't have to deal with crap like this.

Thank you everyone. This may be the most mature board that I have participated on. Very thought provoking

[China Guy]

Sammy and Rosie Get Laid http://www.killermovies.com/s/sammyandrosiegetlaid/ was released in the 1980's and the backdrop was an Indian male and white female who were both English.

Just wondering if what is being discussed here is largely an American phenomenom? Would the same hold true in England or France?

In my close to 20 years in Asia, certainly the majority of inter-racial pairings are white men/Asian women. There are enough that fall the other way so that I don't think them the exception, but certainly it's probably 80-90% white male/Asian female. There are some ladies on this board married to Asians and living in Asia.

I'm not sure if there are Asian women in the US that simply say absolutely they will never date an Asian men. I personally believe that the majority that fall into the white male attraction camp would say their preference is for white males, but that it is not an exclusive condition.

My gut feel is that the experience may be different for first generation asians growing up in the US versus second, third or fourth generation.