Does the female orgasm have an evolutionary purpose?

[Sarah23]

I know many will say no, but what if the female orgasm is more than just a "side effect" and it's true purpose is to keep the woman coming back for more babies (or something else)? Does anyone know if there are any books/theories on this or care to share any personal beliefs?

[bouv]

I think I saw a program on TLC, or Discovery channel a while back that stated that upon insertion of a small camer to view it from the inside, they could see that certain musle contractions inside the vagina hepl move the semen along, thus increasing the chances of conception.

I might be mistaken, someone with more knowledge should stop on by.

[Sarah23]

Yes, I saw that same show...I guess that could explain why it takes a woman <i>longer</i> (on average) to orgasm than men. (If she did it first it wouldn't increase chances of conception.)

[randwill]

If sex wasn't pleasurable, would people do it?

[Sarah23]

Right, but there must be a reason why women are designed to just randomly orgasm (unlike our male counterparts who are designed to orgasm every time). Most women orgasm from the clitoris, yet plain vanilla intercourse doesn't provide the stimulation it needs to get there. Puzzling.

[randwill]

Women orgasm only randomly?

Not MY women!

"With the screaming, and the yelling and the KLAVEN!"

[Sarah23]

Hmm. I've heard that one before :P Anyhoo, with just plain ol' vanilla intercourse it's unlikely for women to orgasm every time. I always hear men speak of internal "g-spots" and whatnot but I'm a lady and ladies talk to other ladies and I've never heard of such a thing. Not that it doesn't exist, but it doesn't seem to be very common.

[Q.E.D.]

This question needs empirical research!

[alterego]

Originally posted by Sarah23
Hmm. I've heard that one before :P Anyhoo, with just plain ol' vanilla intercourse it's unlikely for women to orgasm every time. I always hear men speak of internal "g-spots" and whatnot but I'm a lady and ladies talk to other ladies and I've never heard of such a thing. Not that it doesn't exist, but it doesn't seem to be very common.

Your a woman and you have never heard of a g-spot?

I'm baffled....You should probably go talk to your doctor for guidance on this one....

[Sarah23]

LOL..."it's for research, Honey."

[xash]

Truly random orgasms are discussed here:

Can some people have orgasms without genital stimulation?

And here's an article on the G-Spot:

What's the deal with the Grafenberg spot?

[Rune]

Steven J. Gould argued (Male Nipples and Clitoral Ripples) that female orgasm has not in itself been selected for, rather that females have a clitoris because males have a penis – much the same way that males have nipples because females do. This has a name which I can’t remember right now. E.g. male orgasm has been selected for, female orgasm is a simply a by-product of common ancestry at the embryo stage. Who said nature gives no free lunch clearly hadn’t heard about that theory.
Also I don’t think I agree, but I’m not such a big hotshot as Gould so whadd’ya gonna do?

- Rune

[Sarah23]

I have heard of Gould's argument before. So, if we decide for a second that the "g-spot" does exist, it must not serve and evolutionary purpose since it's so hard to find. Also, the percentage of women that claim to have found their "g-spots" seems to be low, which doesn't mesh with why do many men claim that all the women they've been with are orgasming like mad.

I also wonder how much of it has to do with a woman's particluar anatomy. The female reproductive organs are not a cookie cutter system, same for everyone. I've been told that I am "special" because of the way my uterus and cervix are positioned and the idea of any rough internal stimulation (looking for the "g-spot") makes me go "ouch". I've also read and heard similar sentiments about the same thing from other women.

[Blake]

I tend to agree heavily with Gould on this one. The idea of female orgasm being linked to fertility is is full of holes that it's unworkable. The first problem is that other female mammals can be induced to orgasm through manual simulation, and yet almost none ever achieve orgasm during normal intercourse. Evolution isn't going to produce and hold onto a redundant system just on the off chance that primates evove at some point on the future that can use it.

The next probelm is that most women experience orgasm either during foreplay or coitus, before any semen is present. While research has shown a slight increase in sperm counts in the uterus if orgasm occurs after ejaculation it shows a marked decline in sperm counts if orgasm occurs prior to ejacualtion. Oragsm during coitus or forplay drags alkaline material into the uterus and reduces the chance of conception. That's some system for improving fertility whenin most women it decreases the spem count.

This has led some scientists and quite a few feminsists to theorise that women are predisposed to masturbation after sex and in this way they can have sex with multiple partners but select the one they want to get pregnanat too. Not very convincing when most women report that they are more likely to orgasm with a partner they are highly attracted to and feel comfortable with. The system actually selects against the preferred partner. This is countered by the highly spurious and totally baseless hypothesis that women are driven to subconsciously select for the best father and are subconsciously driven to masturbate after sex with that partner. Aside from being baseless htis requires the rather complicated and redundant system of genetically programming a woman to select desirable features in mates and then superimpose another and entirely subconscipus set of features that select for post coital masturbation potential.

In reality, although their are differences in sperm numbers associated with orgasm, the sperm production in the human male is so over the top, probabaly because of our upright posture, that it has no discernable effect in fertility. Most sperm drain out of the reproductive canal in humans anyway, so a few more lost to orgasm is of little difference. Instead of a few thousand sperm making it to the ova you only get 1500. Since half a dozen is more than enough it's overkill either way.

Gould's hypothesis that female orgasm is an atavism that may or may not play some role in pair bonding and encouraging mating is far more elegant, plausible and supported by evidence.

[Blake]

I tend to agree heavily with Gould on this one. The idea of female orgasm being linked to fertility is is full of holes that it's unworkable. The first problem is that other female mammals can be induced to orgasm through manual simulation, and yet almost none ever achieve orgasm during normal intercourse. Evolution isn't going to produce and hold onto a redundant system just on the off chance that primates evove at some point on the future that can use it.

The next probelm is that most women experience orgasm either during foreplay or coitus, before any semen is present. While research has shown a slight increase in sperm counts in the uterus if orgasm occurs after ejaculation it shows a marked decline in sperm counts if orgasm occurs prior to ejacualtion. Oragsm during coitus or forplay drags alkaline material into the uterus and reduces the chance of conception. That's some system for improving fertility whenin most women it decreases the spem count.

This has led some scientists and quite a few feminsists to theorise that women are predisposed to masturbation after sex and in this way they can have sex with multiple partners but select the one they want to get pregnanat too. Not very convincing when most women report that they are more likely to orgasm with a partner they are highly attracted to and feel comfortable with. The system actually selects against the preferred partner. This is countered by the highly spurious and totally baseless hypothesis that women are driven to subconsciously select for the best father and are subconsciously driven to masturbate after sex with that partner. Aside from being baseless htis requires the rather complicated and redundant system of genetically programming a woman to select desirable features in mates and then superimpose another and entirely subconscipus set of features that select for post coital masturbation potential.

In reality, although their are differences in sperm numbers associated with orgasm, the sperm production in the human male is so over the top, probabaly because of our upright posture, that it has no discernable effect in fertility. Most sperm drain out of the reproductive canal in humans anyway, so a few more lost to orgasm is of little difference. Instead of a few thousand sperm making it to the ova you only get 1500. Since half a dozen is more than enough it's overkill either way.

Gould's hypothesis that female orgasm is an atavism that may or may not play some role in pair bonding and encouraging mating is far more elegant, plausible and supported by evidence.

[Blake]

I tend to agree heavily with Gould on this one. The idea of female orgasm being linked to fertility is is full of holes that it's unworkable. The first problem is that other female mammals can be induced to orgasm through manual simulation, and yet almost none ever achieve orgasm during normal intercourse. Evolution isn't going to produce and hold onto a redundant system just on the off chance that primates evove at some point on the future that can use it.

The next probelm is that most women experience orgasm either during foreplay or coitus, before any semen is present. While research has shown a slight increase in sperm counts in the uterus if orgasm occurs after ejaculation it shows a marked decline in sperm counts if orgasm occurs prior to ejacualtion. Oragsm during coitus or forplay drags alkaline material into the uterus and reduces the chance of conception. That's some system for improving fertility whenin most women it decreases the spem count.

This has led some scientists and quite a few feminsists to theorise that women are predisposed to masturbation after sex and in this way they can have sex with multiple partners but select the one they want to get pregnanat too. Not very convincing when most women report that they are more likely to orgasm with a partner they are highly attracted to and feel comfortable with. The system actually selects against the preferred partner. This is countered by the highly spurious and totally baseless hypothesis that women are driven to subconsciously select for the best father and are subconsciously driven to masturbate after sex with that partner. Aside from being baseless htis requires the rather complicated and redundant system of genetically programming a woman to select desirable features in mates and then superimpose another and entirely subconscipus set of features that select for post coital masturbation potential.

In reality, although their are differences in sperm numbers associated with orgasm, the sperm production in the human male is so over the top, probabaly because of our upright posture, that it has no discernable effect in fertility. Most sperm drain out of the reproductive canal in humans anyway, so a few more lost to orgasm is of little difference. Instead of a few thousand sperm making it to the ova you only get 1500. Since half a dozen is more than enough it's overkill either way.

Gould's hypothesis that female orgasm is an atavism that may or may not play some role in pair bonding and encouraging mating is far more elegant, plausible and supported by evidence.

[Blake]

Sorry for the multiple posts. The were timing out, and every time I hit refresh on the GQ front page it showed no new resposnse, so i assumed it had failed to go through. I notice that now 5 hours later it still doesn't show my reply as the last post in this thread.

Wierd.

[scm1001]

Originally posted by Blake
The first problem is that other female mammals can be induced to orgasm through manual simulation, and yet almost none ever achieve orgasm during normal intercourse.

who did that research and how did they get funding for it????

[shijinn]

IMHO females have it harder so that they might be more selective over who they mate with. males have it easier so that they might sow their seeds more often.

[Marley23]

Right, but there must be a reason why women are designed to just randomly orgasm (unlike our male counterparts who are designed to orgasm every time). Most women orgasm from the clitoris, yet plain vanilla intercourse doesn't provide the stimulation it needs to get there. Puzzling.

When it's done by amateurs, perhaps. There's nothing *random* about the orgasm anyway.

By the way, Sarah23 and I are not related.

[Blake]

who did that research and how did they get funding for it????

I don't know and I'm not sure I want to. Imagine advertising for the position though!

Wanted
Person to diddle barnyard animals to orgasm. Must be highly dextrous and sensitive.

[Rune]

Well just imagine putting it on your CV aftrewards.

yap yap yap. Can make a sheep come in less than two minutes. Extensive experience at tickling [not licking I hope! ] cow clitoris. Know the exact g-spot position of a pig. Yap yap yap

- Rune

[Sarah23]

Originally posted by Marley23
When it's done by amateurs, perhaps. There's nothing *random* about the orgasm anyway.

By the way, Sarah23 and I are not related.

Cute.

V. informative responses from Blake (and others). Thanks!

[Sarah23]

Also, again I see the assumption that men who aren't making women orgasm during intercourse don't know what they're doing. There's a whole myriad of different factors that come (no pun intended) into play during intercourse, not to mention that every woman is different...just because Joe made Ann, Mary and Sally orgasm in college doesn't mean he can make the whole world come. And some women spend time learning their bodies and what they like and then teach their partners (in which case she gets the credit, not her man). A man doesn't have to do any such thing...he sticks it in there--bam--it feels good.

[coffeecat]

Originally posted by Blake
I don't know and I'm not sure I want to. Imagine advertising for the position though!

Wanted
Person to diddle barnyard animals to orgasm. Must be highly dextrous and sensitive.

Eh, just tell the grad student to do it. That's what they're for.

[Sarah23]

Originally posted by alterego
Your a woman and you have never heard of a g-spot?

I'm baffled....You should probably go talk to your doctor for guidance on this one....

Of course I've heard of it lol. Heather Graham told a g-spot joke to Jay Leno once:

"What's the difference between a golf ball and a g-spot?"

"What?"

"A man will spend 20 minutes looking for a golf ball."

Anyway, I don't go around interviewing my female friends about their g-spots, but ironically the subject always seems to come up even though it's not usually a very open subject matter for me. I don't know a single female that has one/knows where hers is. One very open friend of mine even shared with me that she's spent lots of time looking for it...found what she was supposed to be looking for and it only made her pee. Nothing sexual at all about it.

Maybe the g-spot is similar to the rectum...some people are totally turned on by anal stimulation, for others it's not anything remotely sexual.

[RickJay]

Boy, I've known a few ladies who could certainly have orgasms through plain vanilla intercourse. Of course, some do have trouble with it.

I suspect that female orgasms might be one of those physiological phenomena that has a variety of potential benefits in different invididuals. While it may not ALWAYS help in fertilization, there is evidence it does sometimes. While it may not be a great motivator for sex in all individuals, it obviously is in most. There may be other health benefits too.

[Sarah23]

Originally posted by RickJay
Boy, I've known a few ladies who could certainly have orgasms through plain vanilla intercourse. Of course, some do have trouble with it.

I suspect that female orgasms might be one of those physiological phenomena that has a variety of potential benefits in different invididuals. While it may not ALWAYS help in fertilization, there is evidence it does sometimes. While it may not be a great motivator for sex in all individuals, it obviously is in most. There may be other health benefits too.

I never said a woman couldn't orgasm through regular intercourse--only that it's not the easiest way to achieve orgasm and if you took your average woman and your average man, and let them only have missionary position sex with no foreplay, no toys, etc., the woman would probably not orgasm very often.

[TheLadyLion]

At the back of the vagina is an area often referred to as "the seminal pool." When the male ejaculates, the semen is deposited mostly into the seminal pool. If and when the female has her orgasm, the cervix rhythmically dips into the seminal pool, thus making it easier for the sperm to find their way into the uterus. Of course, non-orgasmic females DO get pregnant. I will never forget a brief conversation I had with a young coworker concerning her sex life with her icky, scummy boyfriend who was 7 years her senior. "Oh, he's making sure I don't get pregnant," she cooed. "He just won't let me have an orgasm." I told her to run like hell and never look back.

[Acsenray]

In Sperm Wars, Robin Baker proposes that the female orgasm plays a role in sperm competition. He says that a female orgasm prior to insemination tends to inhibit conception; whereas, a female orgasm concurrent with or following insemination tends to promote conception. So a woman with multiple partners can (unconsciously) try to influence which man's sperm succeeds.

[Mister Rik]

Well... we can always dismiss evolutionary aspects and consider that when God created us he intended that both men and women should enjoy sex (contrary to what Christianity and other religions have done over the centuries to suggest that women shouldn't enjoy it...)

[Acsenray]

In that case, you're dismissing the OP.

[Matchka]

When we were ... younger ... I would accidentally smack a spot in my girlfriend (at the time) that would make her cringe in pain. Years later I actively seek the spot in my wife--same gal (I can feel some sort of protrusion in there--it's WAY in there and at a difficult angle) cuz it's her button. I'm sure it's the same spot, except now it's an instant O for her.

I suppose if we knew why women had orgasm in the first place this mystery might be solved for my wife & me as well. I've not found such a gizmo in any other woman (and have since had a moratorium on further research).

My take on the Female O is that, when properly done, it's quite an exertion which disposes said female to remain prone for a longer period of time. As upright walkers we do have drainage issues and this might help to keep the semen nearer the cervix.

[Marley23]

Well... we can always dismiss evolutionary aspects and consider that when God created us he intended that both men and women should enjoy sex

We could, but why the hell would we? Sarah23 asked a fact-based question, and we're attempting to answer it with the facts as we know them. Which, granted, is somewhat muddled...

The whole g-spot thing remains a great Mystery of the Universe. If the evidence suggests that they don't exist, then I can buy that that. But my girlfriend sure seems to have one, so what is it really?

[alimarx]

Originally posted by acsenray
So a woman with multiple partners can (unconsciously) try to influence which man's sperm succeeds.

Hmmm, an unconscious woman with multiple partners.... Sound like gang rape to me....

[jack@ss]

From my anatomy class and personal experience, I have found that there is more variety to vaginas than there is to faces.

Where the clitoris may be obvious due to its size and position in some women, it is so small in others that it is not visible but can only be found by palpation or oral exploration, it is still located in the same area.

In some women the vagina is tilted to a degree and the G-spot so large that the G-spot is impossible to miss via missionary position intercourse. In others, it is almost impossible to find. Great care and diligence must be maintained when searching the dark confines of the vagina for this fabled and mysterious area! Locating this place is always rewarding to the seeker, unless he make the mistake of exploring the vagina of a woman who gets on his nerves, in which case the explorer has much growing up to do. God help the man who arouses insatiable lust and ardor in a woman to whom he is poorly suited!


It is partly because of its mysterious nature that the vagina is considered by many to be "the final frontier". Many men will invest much time, money and emotional resources to its exploration and study. I know that I myself have put aside eating, drinking, sleep and sometimes even my job to investigate the vagina's inner secrets! I have neglected my house, my yard, my friends and even my dog to pursue the female orgasm!

So, it may be surmised that there is so much to know about the vagina and the female orgasm that in spite of standard academic training and extensive personal research, I can only claim that the more I study them, the more I realize just how little I truly know about them. I gotta say though, that in general vaginas & female orgasms are both Good Things®.

[SlackerInc]

My impression is similar to that of the Lady Lion (and is, I think, based on the same interiour camera angle others mentioned early on, that was on TLC). I also recall (from that program or perhaps from elsewhere) that women orgasm more easily when their partner is symmetrical; and also when they are ovulating.

Women do sure seem different in this regard. Some really do orgasm from intercourse, no problem, almost every time. Others require clitoral stimulation. Now, as for the "g spot"--I don't know what that is, necessarily, but some women clearly get highly stimulated and can orgasm from their cervix being "manhandled".

[Blake]

Originally posted by RickJay
While it may not ALWAYS help in fertilization, there is evidence it does sometimes.

Is there? Can we see this evidence? There is evidence that post ejaculatory orgasm may increase sperm counts in utero but no one has suggested that such a small increase could influence fertility.

Originally posted by acsenray
He says that a female orgasm prior to insemination tends to inhibit conception; whereas, a female orgasm concurrent with or following insemination tends to promote conception. So a woman with multiple partners can (unconsciously) try to influence which man's sperm succeeds.

This is what I was talking about above. The trouble is that the hypothesis requires that a woman be less likely to orgasm with a partner she finds desirable, which we know isn’t true for the majority of women. It also requires that the difference in sperm quantities be significant enough to influence fertility at all. All the investigations have shown that the difference is insignificant. In all the hypothesis smacks of ad hoc reasoning which should be dismissed by the judicious use of Occam’s razor.

[Blake]

Originally posted by RickJay
While it may not ALWAYS help in fertilization, there is evidence it does sometimes.

Is there? Can we see this evidence? There is evidence that post ejaculatory orgasm may increase sperm counts in utero but no one has suggested that such a small increase could influence fertility.

Originally posted by acsenray
He says that a female orgasm prior to insemination tends to inhibit conception; whereas, a female orgasm concurrent with or following insemination tends to promote conception. So a woman with multiple partners can (unconsciously) try to influence which man's sperm succeeds.

This is what I was talking about above. The trouble is that the hypothesis requires that a woman be less likely to orgasm with a partner she finds desirable, which we know isn’t true for the majority of women. It also requires that the difference in sperm quantities be significant enough to influence fertility at all. All the investigations have shown that the difference is insignificant. In all the hypothesis smacks of ad hoc reasoning which should be dismissed by the judicious use of Occam’s razor.

Originally posted by SlackerInc
I also recall (from that program or perhaps from elsewhere) that women orgasm more easily when their partner is symmetrical; and also when they are ovulating.

All apparently true, which is exactly what should not be happening. Most women orgasm during foreplay or coitus, both of which decrease the sperm counts within the uterus. What we have is a situation where the most geneticaly desirable partners are being selected against. If the hypothesis held water what we should find is exactly the opposite. Women should be prone to rapid and prolonged orgasms with men they did not find at all attractive to minimise the chances of conception as well as minimising the desire for masturbation post coitus. Orgasm should be particularly desirable during rape. With men who are attractive women should find sex incredibly frustrating so that orgasm can not occur and so that the woman is inclined towards masturbation/post play after her partner has ejaculated.

[Sarah23]

Maybe the orgasming during ovulation is the motivation to have sex during that time of fertility in the first place.

[Blake]

That doesn't seem plausible though Sarah. Orgasm occurs after a sexual enconter is initiated. Once the encounter is initiated the male is going to ejaculate no matter what so female pleasure is rather pointless form a reproductive point of view. Feeling horny during ovulation makes sense since it promotes copulation, but orgasm after copulation is initiated is not likely to promote more copulation. The only was that could work is if you are suggesting that women know that their chances of orgasm on any given day even before even foreplay is initiated and seek out encounters just for te pleasure. That has not been my experience.

I suspect that the truth is that women do feel more horny when they are ovulating, and horny women are more likely to orgasm. The orgasm is an effect of the driver, not he driver itself.

[Sarah23]

You dont think a woman would be likely to repeat sexual intercourse after orgasming the first time she initiates sex during that "horny" period of ovulation?

[Matchka]

But who here has ever noticed that coincidence? Not me (Not I? oops, that's another post).

Although the O appears to stimulate sperm-slaying conditions I recon them to be negligible given the simple fact that the female orgasm has not been "selected against." This and the evidence to the contrary supported by that way-cool video of the head-banging cervix (suggesting greater uptake of sperm in the presence of orgasm) seems to indicate that the two results oppose each other. Why this would be the case is a mystery--could be that a hostile environment kills off weaker sperm or sperm that is poorly matched to the genes of the receiver (I dunno, maybe Neanderthal sperm couldn't abide the habitat at all); while the bobbing cervix "appologizes" for the chemical insult by picking up more of the survivors and thus neutralizing the initial assault.

From a practical standpoint, given the choice between two mates who are equal in other regards, who here will bet on the genes of the guy who lacks jack@ss' dedication to satisfaction?

As for whether or not the orgasm assists with conception when it occurs before ejaculation, I suppose we would need to know how long that bobbing thing goes on. The phenomena of "multiple orgasm" and "the 30 minute" orgasm (maybe it was 3 minutes...) supports the argument that her O is important irrespective of when Tarzan gets around to it.

jack@ss , I want you to do some field research on this and report your results by this time tomorrow. We'll need at least 10 separate experiments to draw any conclusive proof.

[Blake]

You dont think a woman would be likely to repeat sexual intercourse after orgasming the first time she initiates sex during that "horny" period of ovulation?

I can’t see why. If a woman is feeling inclined towards sexual activity then she is inclined towards sexual activity. I don’t understand why orgasm would have any influence at all. It obviously varies between individuals, but at least some women are less likely to initiate additional intercourse after a satisfying encounter than they would be if they were ‘unfulfilled’ as Barabara Cartland would have said.
I can accept that orgasm is a reward system to encourage copulation, no problem. The problem I’m having is with the need for a woman to realise that she is more prone to orgasm at the time of ovulation even before copulation is initiated.

Matchka, it’s not in any dispute that any influence of orgasm on fertility is insignificant.

Your speculation on the effect of prolonged orgasm that begins pre-ejaculation and finishes in February is interesting but flawed. Firstly such prolonged orgasm is incredibly rare. Even in women capable of such things it is not ‘standard’.

Secondly if orgasm occurs pr-ejaculation it draws vaginal fluid into the uterus. That reduces the survival probability of spermatozoa. It doesn’t matter how long it lasts. If the orgasm then continues afterwards then it still won’t counterbalance its own negative impact because the detrimental effect on sperm is greater than the beneficial effect. It’s a net loss and sperm counts in utero would be higher without any orgasm at all even if the orgasm does last for months. That puts us right back where we started. Women should be more prone to anorgasmia and frustrating sexual encounters with men they find attractive. Maybe prolonged orgasms could be invoked as a mechanism to counteract the negative effects of orgasm, but it doesn’t explain the origin of orgasm to begin with.