Does capsaicin INJURE (not cause pain to) mammals?

[toadspittle]

We know birds can eat chile peppers without injury, thanks to this mailbag report:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mchili.html

But one thing I've never gotten straight: Can mammals receive actual chemical burns from capsaicin? We know it fools pain receptors into registering pain, but does it cause tissue damage? I ask because I have often heard about people not washing their hands properly after dicing spicy peppers, and then doing something like, say, removing their contacts ( = capsaicin in the eye = ouch), and people commenting that the individual got a terrible "chemical burn."

What's the straight dope? True damage, or only illusion?

[toadspittle]

Anyone? SDSAB?

[Philster]

It is actually used to treat skin conditions, and when there is a feeling of a 'burn', it is just that: a feeling. It tricks the nerve receptors. It's not causing harm that the nerve receptors are signalling, it's just creating that same burning feeling, without the burning. Well, that goes for the very diluted stuff that is used.


But reading this new piece, it claims that pure capsaicin will blister the skin:

"...A single milligram of pure capsaicin (the equivalent of about 10 grains of salt) placed on the palm of an ungloved hand would feel like a burning spike and would blister the skin..."

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issue..._feature4.html

[Philster]

And this fairly scientific look at the molecue states that concentrated amounts of capsaicin does indeed kill cells, and calls it toxic:

"High concentrations are toxic. Exposure is painful and even incapacitating. Capsaicin prevents nerve cells from communicating with each other by blocking the production of certain neurotransmitters; at high concentrations it destroys the cells!"

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/se...apsaicin.shtml

There are references to 11 different studies on the subject by universities, etc.

[violet9]

That's very interesting. Looking through my garden catalogs every spring, I've wondered if all the hybridizing in the quest for the firiest, flaming, explosive pepper would eventually produce a genuinely "killer chili."

[kinoons]

Its a bit of a strech, but here we go...

Mace contains capsaican, and is used to help subdue roudy people by the police and security personel. It is possible for that mace to trigger asthma attacks in some people. If severe enough, that could cause death...

[keintabak]

I put cayenne powder paste and jalapeno juice in my EYEBALL all the time, and it has never permanently damaged my eye nor my eyesight. I do infact have cayenne residue in my eyelid and eyeball right this moment and also on my head. Let me explain...

I heard a story from a coworker some months ago about a natural hair growth remedy that involved jalapenos. The coworker, whom I will for convenience's sake and to protect his identity as "Juanito", claimed that his late (late as in "the dude's dead") brother-in-law had a very bad case of premature male pattern balding, but regrew a full mane of luxuriate black hair by using a "Jalapeno Shampoo", for 1 month. Naturally, I immediately dismissed the idea, because it sounded like just the sort of "high technology" you'd expect from a backward equatorial stone-aged culture. The fact that Juanito hailed from Mexico City made me further assume that he'd spent most of his time huffing spray paint and such.

However, I was mostly right but was wrong about the Jalapenos. MY balding situation was desperate enough that I spent some time in google-researching the idea, which shed some light on the subject.

I came across quite a number of traditional hair remedies involving capsaicin, which is the "hot" active ingredient in all of the hot peppers. I learned that capsaicin is used as a topical analgesic, used topically as well as internally for ant-inflammatory, antioxidant, blood pressure regulation, anti-viral, etc., and finally in hair regrowth. And these were results from both 'folk' anecdotal evidence but also clinical studies and in medicines already on the market. I was focusing on hair regrowth, so eventually I came across a youtube video instructing how to make a Jalapeno hair tonic and I used it myself, eventually modifying and concentrating the formulation. I shaved my hair very close (a 3mm guard) to make sure the paste would make the best contact with my scalp, then every night before bed for the next 2 weeks I 1.) washed my head thoroughly with shampoo and isopropyl alcohol to remove any oily build-up 2.) put on a goofy head band to keep any capsaicin from running into my eyes 3.) applied the capsaicin ointment to the balding areas and covered with the smallest showercap I could arrange, and 4.) tried my best to go to bed through the haze of pain.

And the pain was excruciating. Delectable, I might even describe it. It literally felt like my scalp had been doused with napalm and ignited. The amount of time before the pain really kicked in to its peak was usually around 30 minutes and lasting anywhere from 2 hours to 8 hours. The huge time variation was due to variations in both the oil or build up on my scalp and also in the potency of the particular batch of jalapenos I'd last used (as in humans, not all jalapenos are born equal). After a time, I became tolerant to the pain. The pain receptors of a certain neural pathway can become overloaded such that the pain for that particular type of pain is no longer registered in the brain for that area. So it got to the point that I was no longer certain if a capsaicin ointment on my scalp was still working, because my scalp was basically becoming numbed to the capsaicin pain. You may be thinking, "Well, that dumbass obviously damaged his damn nerves", and my response would be, "You're stupid," and I'd be right. The pain is truly "all in your mind," and CAN NOT cause tissue damage. The truth is, the pain experienced by mammals when exposed to capsaicin is completely illusory, though there are some autonomic responses to the exposure of capsaicin, such as capillary dilation (thus the pain-relieving and vascular effects), but a reaction not as strong as a histamine response (unless you are actually allergic to it or some component of the pepper). The horrible/wonderful sensation of immolation is designed to near-perfectly mimic the sensation of a real burn, so that weak-minded people have no choice but to believe the illusion. As far as I know, the pain receptors responsible for the capsaicin "burn" belong to mammals alone; thus avians, reptiles, insects, etc, can all enjoy eating capsaicin-laden peppers without pain.

Back to the story, I used the jalapeno on my scalp for about 2 weeks straight and I was amazed to see an undeniable improvement in the folicles of my balding area. The only reason I didn't bring the experiment to completion was due to Holiday-related disruptions. Naturally, at some point the jalapeno juice did eventually get into my eyes and other places. In the first eye+capsaicin incident I experienced a level of pain I hadn't enjoyed for many past months, when I suffered a 3rd degree boiling water burn to my right ankle. In fact, though the ankle burn was far more intense initially, the capsaicin-in-my-eye pain was far more enduring. Seeing through only one eye, I immediately began a frantic internet search to determine whether my eye may be in real physical danger. Naturally, I came across a lot of BS and complaints but very little real information. Eventually, I came across a post from someone who really seemed to know what they were talking about, while coincidentally the pain was beginning to abate on it's own and became able to open and see with the "burned" eye.

Amazingly, I also saw several people advocating a folk remedy that involved a capsaicin eye wash! So, when the pain the pain ultimately subsided and discovered that DID NOT suffer any damage to my eye, I slowly and hesitantly began putting diluted capsaicin, in the form of: pureed jalapeno+olive oil+isopropyl alcohol, on and in my eyelid and eventually directly onto my eyeball. I started my experiments using my right eye only for 2 reasons: 1.) the right eye was already weak and degenerating, so if I destroyed it I'd be less devastated, and 2.) the right eye poor vision issue and right-side sinus problems may actually be improved by this treatment, so I wanted to attack the issues head-on. I did determine that a number of things from this experience.

First of all, I actually became somewhat addicted to the pain, and found myself over-doing the capsaicin and putting more and more of it into my eyes just for the thrill of it. Secondly, the pain is, as I suspected, completely illusory, temporary, and non-destructive. Finally, I found that capsaicin in the eyes is the quickest and surest was to clean my eyes and sinuses and that it DOES improve my ability to focus my bad eye, somewhat mitigated my nearsightedness.

As a final insane and and frightening test to make certain that capsaicin pain is ONLY in the mind, I also put my newly-formulated-and-much-improved capsaicin solution DIRECTLY and THOROUGHLY and COMPLETELY entirely doused it all over my genitalia. That's right, In The Name Of Science and more than a little masochism, I purposefully ladled copious amounts of highly potent hot pepper solution all over my genitals. This was without a doubt the worst time I've spent by myself in recent memory, and I did it not just once but twice. In both cases the pain was so horrific that I was (almost) willing to forsake my dignity and call 911 to have my shattered genitals delivered to the emergency room in an ambulance, and even suffered a few minor panic attacks and briefly considered self dismemberment (like I said, briefly). Thankfully, the pain was so overwhelmingly powerful that the receptors topped out and stopped hurting after only 40 minutes or so, leaving only a warm, pleasant sensation that lasted about 2 hours. I also noticed that the skin of this area was red and even a little purplish though NOT chemically burned, and this was due to increased blood circulation. And naturally, my junk is still perfectly fine and fully functional

I have to cut this fascinating (lol) story short, because I didn't mean to spend this much time on the topic. So once again, please listen me and believe me when I say that capsaicin in itself will NOT and can NOT permanently damage your body, though the extremely-to-horrifyingly painful experience may drive you to damage your body or mind, if you can't control yourself. There have been recent reports of jalapenos tainted with salmonella, but I don't even worry about that because I formulate my pastes with enough isopropyl alcohol to kill ANY bacteria in the stuff. So, take it from someone who has fearlessly plumbed the depths hot-pepper-hell and returned unscathed. I have long since graduated from jalapenos (where I started) to cayenne (where I am now) to finally habaneros tomorrow, and I will certainly report my results of experimenting with habanero eye-washes and habanero hair tonics very soon, and entirely on/against myself.

[toofs]

Pepper spray can injure, usually if it penetrates the eyeball when sprayed at too close a range. Normally, it simply hurts like a motherfucker and basically overloads your senses. It is a highly effective way of getting the upper hand on a non-compliant or agressive person.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by keintabak

This was without a doubt the worst time I've spent by myself in recent memory, and I did it not just once but twice.

This post raises a lot of questions, but I think the big one is why you did it the second time. And what the reaction in the ER was like the second time.

[Crazyhorse]

Originally Posted by keintabak

So once again, please listen me and believe me when I say that capsaicin in itself will NOT and can NOT permanently damage your body

Bad news: Topical use of Capsaicin has been linked to skin cancer. Of course those researchers might not have had the depth of clinical experience that you and Juanito have under your belts <cough> .

[Autolycus]

Originally Posted by keintabak

I put cayenne powder paste and jalapeno juice in my EYEBALL all the time

Have you by any chance been shopping for watermelons lately?

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

The neurotoxic effects of capsaicin have been documented for decades.

http://www.citeulike.org/user/Okachi...rticle/1140259

Doesn't stop me from eating hot stuff, though.

[Ferret Herder]

I'm fairly certain that applying isopropyl alcohol to the surface of the eye isn't healthy for it, either, much less the paste of hot peppers that he intended to "decontaminate" with it.

Assuming this isn't just an ever-so hilarious joke, I have to say: I am not a doctor or nurse, but I do work in Ophthalmology, and in my semi-professional opinion, you are risking serious damage to your eye through this practice.

[heavyarms553]

So you are the one putting chili powder in your eye, and we are the stupid ones?

I learned that capsaicin is used as a topical analgesic, used topically as well as internally for ant-inflammatory, antioxidant, blood pressure regulation, anti-viral, etc., and finally in hair regrowth.

I guess you missed the memo that let everyone else know that if a product's health claims are all encompassing, they are all most likely false.

Seriously, you need help. While your self-injurious behavior isn't outright blinding you, there is no evidence that suggests it has any health benefits. Show me a double blind, placebo controlled study that shows that capsaicin has a clinically significant influence on a disease, and I'll believe you.

The one and only medically feasible use of capsaicin is for the treatment of shingles. When applied regularly, it depletes substance P from presynaptic vesicles and inhibits nociception. It does not speed recovery, but merely acts as a natural analgesic.

As a final insane and and frightening test to make certain that capsaicin pain is ONLY in the mind, I also put my newly-formulated-and-much-improved capsaicin solution DIRECTLY and THOROUGHLY and COMPLETELY entirely doused it all over my genitalia. That's right, In The Name Of Science and more than a little masochism, I purposefully ladled copious amounts of highly potent hot pepper solution all over my genitals. This was without a doubt the worst time I've spent by myself in recent memory, and I did it not just once but twice. In both cases the pain was so horrific that I was (almost) willing to forsake my dignity and call 911 to have my shattered genitals delivered to the emergency room in an ambulance, and even suffered a few minor panic attacks and briefly considered self dismemberment (like I said, briefly). Thankfully, the pain was so overwhelmingly powerful that the receptors topped out and stopped hurting after only 40 minutes or so, leaving only a warm, pleasant sensation that lasted about 2 hours. I also noticed that the skin of this area was red and even a little purplish though NOT chemically burned, and this was due to increased blood circulation. And naturally, my junk is still perfectly fine and fully functional

So your final proof is that you somehow managed to not lose you genitals? You sir, are a true scientist.

[Methyl Ethyl Death]

Can you spot the looney in this thread?

[keintabak]

@toofs: You're a moron. You're saying it injures by hurting. I don;t know how to explain to you that the pain mimics an injury, so I'll just reiterate that you're a moron.

@Marley23: I don't think there's any need for "a lot of questions" about capsaicin+genitals twice. I did it to see if I could handle the pain, what the difference between the two experiences may be, etc. If you are capable of acknowledging that the pain is imaginary, then you'll get it.

@Crazyhorse: I get sarcasm; it's cheap and easy, so it's a favorite of fat, lazy idiots. As far as capsaicin causing cancer, if you CHOOSE to search for any particular food or chemical you can find some wacky study proving a link to cancer. Using your own BS method, i have determined that Broccoli and Aspirin cause cancer. I'd be thrilled to find that sarcasm causes cancer in douchebags, thus the Universe will one day be minus one douchebag.

@Autolycus: "Shopping for watermelons"? Clearly a stereotypical african-american joke, so the fact that your random comment is irrelevant AND racist doesn't even matter. You're also clearly a passive-aggressive coward, because if you had even ONE testical, you'd just save time and call me a Nigger.

@Qadgop the Mercotan: A study in 10-day old rats? You're REALLY reaching here, huh? If you'd eved read your own cut-n'-posted link, you'd see that the study failed to determine a permanent neuronal damage, and that the adult rats who were systematically literally bathed in pure capsaicin for months ended up being capsaicin-insensitive, and this data is clearly absolutely irrelevant. The only think that you're comment seems to really prove is that you don't know what you're talking about.

@Ferret Herder: Yes, you would be correct in suspecting this is a joke. However, I work so damn hard at my humor that I actually, truly did these things to myself. I hope that it's also real doesn't detract from the "humor value" of my post. I am so absolutely certain that capsaicin is not "permanently" damaging that I really did put it in my eyes and on my balls (twice), and my non-scientific testing proved that though it was very, very painful, I did NOT suffer "permanent" damage. I don't recommend it for your sanity, because obviously it's very stressful, but the insanity of purposefully doing this does put a smile on my face.

@heavyarms553: Yes, I can still say that you're a complete idiot, even after purposefully putting jalapeno juice on my precious balls (twice). I never claimed capsaicin as a panacea (you idiot), and I clearly stated that I pout it on sensitive areas of my body strictly for thrills. Determining the long-term efficacy of capsaicin as a hair-growth in a scientific study would take more funding, time, and staff than I'm willing to devote. For all I know, it may be the olive oil or the alcohol cleaning my hair follicles responsible for the hair growth I've experienced. It could also be something environmental, dietary, some unknown property of the shower cap, how I've been sleeping, what I watched on TV, whether or not I've been driving with the window rolled down and getting rush-hour daily commute pollution on my hair, on and on and on ad-nauseum. I'm not a scientist any more than you are (yeah, your search-and-peck google-style research and cut-n'-paste skeelz about biochemistry are as amazingly unimpressive as they are transparent). One clear difference between us is that YOU are nothing but a heckler, and I have the balls to mine on the line (pun intended), for the sake of humor and boredom more than science.

@Methyl Ethyl Death: There's no doubt that I'm insane. But there's also nothing untrue about my post.

If you take nothing from this post, it should be this: the pain you feel from hot peppers is entirely imaginary and entirely temporary, meaning yes it hurts like fire but no you are not being burned in any way. So if capsaicin on your follicles works for you personally and you can stand the pain, there is absolutely nothing to fear and you may actually get some improvement in your hair. That's really all I wanted to explain in all of this.

Now, I still have a lot of other looney stuff to do today, so have a nice day and if you have time, please use a sheetrock saw to slit your own throats

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by keintabak

Now, I still have a lot of other looney stuff to do today, so have a nice day and if you have time, please use a sheetrock saw to slit your own throats

I have a better idea. Hold still, this might sting a bit.

[slaphead]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I have a better idea. Hold still, this might sting a bit.

Ah, mod sauce. Perfect for those occasions when normal hot sauce simply won't do.

[cochrane]

Well. Somebody obviously hasn't been lurking a bit to get a feel for the boards' culture, has he, now?

[Methyl Ethyl Death]

At least he didn't insult me. Maybe it was because I used the

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Guy sure didn't like science much, did he?

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Guy sure didn't like science much, did he?

Pfff. What do you know anyway?

[Wheelz]

Wow, that was.... um... What was that?

I kept waiting for the link to www. miraclecapsaicincureall .com or something, but wondered if insulting people was a good marketing strategy.

[kenobi 65]

I miss him already.

[postcards]

I'd just like to say, on behalf of the members, in light of keintabak's joining (at full price) and banning a mere three posts later, "Thanks for the $14.95!"

[Dogzilla]

Obligatory, "I burned my vagina" story.

[heavyarms553]

I feel somewhat honored that I got the longest rage paragraph. The jokes on him though, I'm published. That (sort of) makes me a scientist.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by keintabak

@Autolycus: "Shopping for watermelons"? Clearly a stereotypical african-american joke,

Actually, to set the record straight on this comment for casual perusers of this thread and board, it's a reference to a current GQ thread about someone finding an "eyeball" in his watermelon, so not "clearly a stereotypical african-american joke"

[Methyl Ethyl Death]

At least yours was accidental, Dogzilla. He proudly boasted he did it to his family jewels TWICE! ...and shit.

Speaking of loonies, is the "and shit" guy still around? What was his name again?

[Any Other Name]

Is in and banned in three posts a record? For paid membership? Disregarding obvious bots, trolls, sock puppets, etc? Any interesting user names worth searching?

[runner pat]

Originally Posted by Methyl Ethyl Death

At least yours was accidental, Dogzilla. He proudly boasted he did it to his family jewels TWICE! ...and shit.

Speaking of loonies, is the "and shit" guy still around? What was his name again?

Super Kapowzler. He's still around.



And shit.

[Dogzilla]

Originally Posted by Methyl Ethyl Death

At least yours was accidental, Dogzilla. He proudly boasted he did it to his family jewels TWICE! ...and shit.

Speaking of loonies, is the "and shit" guy still around? What was his name again?

He was right on this count: there was no lasting permanent damage.

That said, I don't eat pepper jam anymore. I still make it and sell it, but whenever someone offers it to me, I shudder and politely decline.

[Gary T]

Originally Posted by Any Other Name

Is in and banned in three posts a record?

Two of those posts were identical, one being accidentally posted in the wrong thread. So practically speaking, it was just the two posts in this thread.

[dhkendall]

Originally Posted by Any Other Name

Disregarding obvious bots, trolls, sock puppets, etc?

I haven't ruled out him being the middle one ...

"Antisocial" is my first choice, though. Occam's Razor and all that.

[Crazyhorse]

Originally Posted by postcards

I'd just like to say, on behalf of the members, in light of keintabak's joining (at full price) and banning a mere three posts later, "Thanks for the $14.95!"

So minus a little cut for Marley23 and TBTB that comes to about $2.00 each for those of us who were honored to be called out in his suicide-by-mod rant. Not too bad for a days work.

If he and his lab assistant Juanito want to make any scientific advances in their field at all, when seeking peer review they really should learn to let cooler heads prevail.

[SeaDragonTattoo]

Aw. Darn. If he hadn't gone all insulty, this could have been way more fun.

One of the best zombie resurrections, ever.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by Dogzilla

Obligatory, "I burned my vagina" story.

Milk douche. The casein in the milk binds the capsaicin and relieves the symptoms quickly.

QtM, who has been called on to treat capsaicin burns in a lot of odd places.

[runner pat]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Milk douche. The casein in the milk binds the capsaicin and relieves the symptoms quickly.

QtM, who has been called on to treat capsaicin burns in a lot of odd places.

Bagel-dog with jalapenos?

[Autolycus]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

The neurotoxic effects of capsaicin have been documented for decades.

http://www.citeulike.org/user/Okachi...rticle/1140259

Doesn't stop me from eating hot stuff, though.

Oh yeah, well the OP disagreed! I'm honestly not sure what to believe now. I mean, who should I trust? A long-time poster and respected prison doctor, or a stranger who pours jalapeño sauce onto his testicles?

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by runner pat

Bagel-dog with jalapenos?

Heck, I had one patient try to use capsaicin cream (used to treat neuralgia) as a masturbation lubricant. If only poor Mr. Bagel Dog penis had done that instead, he would have been happier.

The literature reports patients have mistaken their capsaicin cream for their hemorrhoid cream.

cacafuego!

[davidm]

I find myself wanting to make some sort of South Park zombie joke but unfortunately that was Worcestershire sauce, not hot sauce.

[Wheelz]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Milk douche.

Band name!

Or, maybe not.

[jjimm]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Milk douche.

Forgive me for junior modding, but I don't think we're allowed to insult people in this forum.

[Dogzilla]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Milk douche. The casein in the milk binds the capsaicin and relieves the symptoms quickly.

QtM, who has been called on to treat capsaicin burns in a lot of odd places.

No fuckin way. I know you're a doc and everything, but I wasn't about to douche with anything. I was afraid I'd push the capsaicin further up in there and burn my cervix. No. Thank. You. If you can assure me that wouldn't happen, I'll keep it in mind next time. (Right. Like there will be a next time.)

Furthermore, wouldn't milk leave all sorts of bacteria up there that probably shouldn't be? Sounds like a recipe for a horrible infection to me.... Or PID. :: shudder ::

[Guinastasia]

I think alcohol is also supposed to help. So maybe -- whiskey douche?

[Mooch]

Milk works. I speak from experience.

[Dogzilla]

I'm sure milk does work, I'm just not squirting it up in my hoo-ha.

[Marley23]

But it does a body good!

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by Dogzilla

I'm sure milk does work, I'm just not squirting it up in my hoo-ha.

Well, if you need help ............

[purplehorseshoe]

Originally Posted by Any Other Name

Is in and banned in three posts a record? For paid membership? Disregarding obvious bots, trolls, sock puppets, etc? Any interesting user names worth searching?

Just had to point out the username/post combo on this one.