Backseat Hitmen (Off limits to living Mafia players)

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

This thread is for discussion of the latest game.

Looks to be a blood bath.

[Winston Smith]

Bada-bing. Can't wait.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

With potentially 37 players and new roles, it is going to be a very different game.

I'm quoting the GM's roles summary (including the ambiguity). Not sure if he will share exactly what is and isn't assigned with either this thread or the game...

Originally Posted by NAF1138

Possible roles NOT all of which are being used.

Mafia-these are the bad guys. There may be as many as 10 of them. They can talk to each other, but only at night. During the day they pass themselves off as townies. They vote to kill one person a night, but may vote no kill.

Godfather- The head mafia member. In case of a tie in the night kill vote the Godfather decides. Godfather shows up as a regular townie if investigated, will survive being targeted for night kill by the Vigilante.

The Miller- The miller is a role blocker, they select a person each night to stop from using their role assignment. The Miller is pro town, but will show up as scum if investigated. There can be up to 2 millers

Cops - there are 2 kinds of cop, detective and beat cop. Detectives are always right when they investigate, beat cops are only right 50% of the time. Cops cannot talk outside of the game. There can be up to 3 cops.

Serial Killer - anti town AND anti mafia player, may kill each night, but does not have to. SK wins if they are still alive at endgame.

Vigilante - pro town player who selects one person to kill each night. The vigilante must kill every night in search of the serial killer.
If the vigilante kills the serial killer the Vigilante becomes an ordinary citizen and a confirmed townie. If the SK is lynched or Mob Killed, the Vigilante becomes a citizen but does not get public confirmation of town status.

Masons - Ordinary citizens, but they each know the identity of the others. They may not speak outside of the game. There may be up to 6 masons.

The Doctor - May chose one person each night to save from being night killed. If investigated they show up as the Doctor.

Guardian Angel- A one shot deal. May chose 2 people to protect on a single night, but can only use this ability once. If investigated shows up as an Ordinary Citizen.

Because this game is SO big, I figure it will be confusing to have anything more complicated. So if you don't see it on the list it isn't in the game.

[Nava]

Hey, Win, aren't you in on the game? SHOO!

Just subscribing so I can find it more easily The last byte of my biological HDD was used up by Bolzano's Theorem in '94.

[jsgoddess]

I hope the GM enforces the no-lurking rule. That made the end of the first game very hard.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

The Serial Killer and Vigilante roles seem a bit odd as described. The SK doesn't even have to kill, while the Vigilante has to kill every night.

[fruitbat]

As a veteran werewolf player I find this rule set to be interesting. I have played games with just about every combination of roles available. Some thoughts on the roles:

Vigilante: His goal is to kill the SK, but in my experience finding the SK specifically is damn near impossible, so his best strategy is to just try to kill Mafia. Generally people with power roles act differently than they do as normal villagers, so that applies to the Mafia as well as the SK. Unfortunately he could also hit the seers. Given the Godfather's immunity from Vigilante night kills I would come out if I took a shot at someone and they did not die, on the presumption that I likely shot at the Godfather.

Serial Killer - This role is great fun, but they very rarely win. In twenty or so games with an SK we have only had one win. If you act too villagery you get killed by wolves, if you act too wolfy you get lynched. It is a really tough balance.

Beat Cop - This is basically a useless seer. It gives the Mafia a good opportunity to fake seer because they don't even have to be right to succeed. At best this role is neutral to the village.

Doctor - The doctor role will die as it is currently constructed as soon as someone realizes the hole in the rules. In this set up I come out day one as the seer and start giving my peeks. The doctor protects me. From there the information is out in the open and it is just a matter of luck as to how long the doctor stays alive. As a wolf this is incredibly frustrating because there are no doctor 'tells' to look for. For that reason we have modified it to "the doctor cannot protect the same person two nights in a row".

[NAF1138]

To the experienced players, this is my first attempt at a game set up, how do y'all think it look so far? Not all the roles are being used, but I was attempting to get a balance and instill a bit of paranoia. Whatcha think?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I think the aspect of it being unknown which roles are in the game and which aren't will certainly keep things interesting. It seems possible that it will be too chaotic for good strategy, but we'll have to see.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

I think the aspect of it being unknown which roles are in the game and which aren't will certainly keep things interesting. It seems possible that it will be too chaotic for good strategy, but we'll have to see.

That's my fear, I should have kept the player count smaller. But hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

[One And Only Wanderers]

well..... that was fun....

question is, do i still fill out my custom spreadsheet, or just read along and not analyse...

I'm sure another game will be along in a fiscal quarter or two...

[One And Only Wanderers]

Originally Posted by Enfant terrible

Of course.

*does the obligatory two-eyes to two-eyes finger point*

I see that we have the earliest vestiges of theorizing going on, and in my limited experience with this game, players who provide early breakdowns tend to have some sort of special role the rest of us just don't have... hmmm.

earliest scum tell ever. combines trying to out a power role with establishing vanilla townieness.

[dnooman]

Well, no surprise, I was killed.

IMO the addition of the Millers seemed to kind of push the envelope as far as having a good balance and keeping things clear. But YMMV of course.

I think that any of the players from the previous game that survive several days have a higher possibility of having a special role. The SK and Mafia want the more experienced and insightful players dead.

[Captain Carrot]

Waaaahhhh! Given that the thread is already 8 pages, I'm not even going to try to follow it.

[dnooman]

The masons, if there are any, and if they learned anything from the previous game, will vote for at least one other mason at some point. Numerous people will rely on Rysto's spreadsheet for info. People are lazy, and this thread is gonna be one hell of a whopper. If masons vote for each other, they are more easily hidden in such a matrix if they throw a few distraction votes in there.

This can only help the town. I don't think I'll postulate any anti-town strategies here, the temptation to cheat is too great for some people to avoid. Besides, I'm rooting for the town .

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by dnooman

IMO the addition of the Millers seemed to kind of push the envelope as far as having a good balance and keeping things clear. But YMMV of course.

I really wanted to try a nice big game, but I think I may have reached a bit too far. If this game is a success (and I will hate myself if I killed the mafia games on the boards) I might try again with a much smaller game.. Fewer people will be able to play, but they may have more fun.

But we will see. I set it up in a way that (I hope) the numbers are going to drop to manageable sizes fairly quickly, and I put a lot of thought into making it balanced. So we shall see.

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by NAF1138

I really wanted to try a nice big game, but I think I may have reached a bit too far. If this game is a success (and I will hate myself if I killed the mafia games on the boards) I might try again with a much smaller game.. Fewer people will be able to play, but they may have more fun.

But we will see. I set it up in a way that (I hope) the numbers are going to drop to manageable sizes fairly quickly, and I put a lot of thought into making it balanced. So we shall see.

You may have done really well, and you certainly put a lot of thought into this. I hope you don't think I was being disparaging, I admire your ambition.

With so many people flying blind, there will be lots of kills that people might not have wanted to happen (being the killers), potentially. The high kill rate may be a good way of including a lot of people, at least to some degree. In the last game the Wolves knew that they could kill anyone besides themselves without there being a real penalty. That has changed in this game, possibly for the better, we'll see.

There is no way that you killed the idea of such a thread on this board, you should be applauded IMO for making it more fresh, and keeping the idea going. I just hope the Mods don't drop the hammer on this great new trend.

Just because I was slightly confused by an element of your game doesn't mean it was a bad idea at all. It's more than likely that a game of even slightly increased complexity, is too much for my tiny brain to handle. You're doing a great job. I did not mean to detract from that at all.

[dnooman]

I think that Fern Forrest is not long for this game. She posted a mini-festo, and then voted for sturmhauke based on the fact that I, (a confirmed townie) decided to have a drink with him.

Guilty or not, I think She/He dies soon.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by dnooman

You may have done really well, and you certainly put a lot of thought into this. I hope you don't think I was being disparaging, I admire your ambition.

With so many people flying blind, there will be lots of kills that people might not have wanted to happen (being the killers), potentially. The high kill rate may be a good way of including a lot of people, at least to some degree. In the last game the Wolves knew that they could kill anyone besides themselves without there being a real penalty. That has changed in this game, possibly for the better, we'll see.

There is no way that you killed the idea of such a thread on this board, you should be applauded IMO for making it more fresh, and keeping the idea going. I just hope the Mods don't drop the hammer on this great new trend.

Just because I was slightly confused by an element of your game doesn't mean it was a bad idea at all. It's more than likely that a game of even slightly increased complexity, is too much for my tiny brain to handle. You're doing a great job. I did not mean to detract from that at all.

Sorry if I came across defensive. I took your quote as a legitimate criticism and a fair one. I am just a tad worried because the game is really big, but I am plagued by self doubt at all times. That doesn't have anything to do with you.

It is fun to watch it unfold. I want to share inside knowladge but I don't trust the other gamers enough. I will say that I am VERY impressed by some of the posters and their anylitical skills.

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by NAF1138

Sorry if I came across defensive. I took your quote as a legitimate criticism, I am just a tad worried because the game is really big, but I am plagued by self doubt at all times. That doesn't have anything to do with you.

It is fun to watch it unfold. I want to share inside knowladge but I don't trust the other gamers enough. I will say that I am VERY impressed by some of the posters and their anylitical skills.

You did not come across as being defensive at all. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't coming across as offensive.

You just gave away a lot of info, I hope that people don't cheat and read this thread. Actually, having a concurrent thread is a really bad idea in retrospect. NAF just stated (practically) that there have been astute observations in the main thread as of now. As huge as this game is, such a revelation is key. This means that either assumptions were made about the 1st night's kill that were accurate, or that role-having players have already been accused, be they major or minor roles.

The board rules do not allow for the type of thread-access restriction that is necessary for such a thread to be active, and not a potential source of inside information.

The idea of such a thread is a great one, it's just hard to make it work well on a site that allows a side-thread that's concurrent with the active thread.

Hopefully I'm being paranoid, and there is no outsider knowledge of this thread. If I were to bet my life on it though, I would vote that current players are reading this thread.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by dnooman

You did not come across as being defensive at all. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't coming across as offensive.

You just gave away a lot of info, I hope that people don't cheat and read this thread. Actually, having a concurrent thread is a really bad idea in retrospect. NAF just stated (practically) that there have been astute observations in the main thread as of now. As huge as this game is, such a revelation is key. This means that either assumptions were made about the 1st night's kill that were accurate, or that role-having players have already been accused, be they major or minor roles.

The board rules do not allow for the type of thread-access restriction that is necessary for such a thread to be active, and not a potential source of inside information.

The idea of such a thread is a great one, it's just hard to make it work well on a site that allows a side-thread that's concurrent with the active thread.

Hopefully I'm being paranoid, and there is no outsider knowledge of this thread. If I were to bet my life on it though, I would vote that current players are reading this thread.

Well, to be fair...while there have been a fair amount of asstute observations, I think it is about as good as if they were all still random. There have been just as many really bad ones. It was actually the breakdown of probability making the case for the usefullness of the beat cop that really impressed me. People are putting a lot more thought and work into playing this game than I would have.

[dnooman]

I was gonna post a thread condemning Fern Forrest's opinions, but then I remembered that she was on my "soon to die" list. If she's not, that certainly says a lot doesn't it?

[The Understander]

Originally Posted by One And Only Wanderers

earliest scum tell ever. combines trying to out a power role with establishing vanilla townieness.

Why does everyone think I was trying to out the good guys there?

Oh well, live and learn. Still, I just wanted to get people thinking about who was whom so that we don't make mistakes. I'm vanilla, I'm no big loss, and even being down 4-0 now eyes turn toward who killed me. Not saying I'm good at this at all, but that was the basic reasoning behind the move--that. I should have said scum instead. Stupid 20/20 hindsight.

[The Understander]

Oh, and storyteller-- J'accuse!

[panamajack]

Does anyone besides me think that Autolycus is going to get bumped off during the night? He seems to be 'probable citizen, but not helping them' and possibly just annoying people in the process. The town doesn't seem to want to expend effort on him, and the Mafia probably figure he isn't worth going after either, as he hasn't tried to influence anyone yet. The SK or Vigilante might go after him since Autolycus appears to be a 'safe' kill.

Unless he is the SK, which is conceivable (but I suspect he doesn't have a major role, which is why he created one for himself).

It is interesting in this game that the Vigilante is in a tough position early on. They don't really know who is who, and they run the risk of killing a power player without any hope of them defending themselves. This may be why going for a likely citizen is better than a serious screw-up after a random choice. Later on, the Vig can act to go after suspected mafia at least when the votes are split.

Even more intriguing is what happens if the Vig gets killed early on. The SK then becomes a moderately valuable resource for the town, but they have to hope the Mafia manages to kill the SK (or they get lynched by accident), which will be tough since there aren't any easy tells - the SK doesn't have any inside information they can accidentally spill.

[The Understander]

Originally Posted by panamajack

Does anyone besides me think that Autolycus is going to get bumped off during the night?

Nope... more like to be lynched. If he's not mafia, he's too valuable a diversion to the town to whack so soon. I'd expect them to go for storyteller if my thoughts about him being mafia are incorrect. Otherwise, crapshoot on who gets it.

[CaerieD]

Well, that didn't last too long. My money's riding on it having been the Vigilante who got me, too. I don't know how they're going to manage, being one Mason down with no Detective and not having gotten a single member of the Mafia yet.

I'm just happy I finally get to read this thread.

[NAF1138]

Sorry you had to go so soon CaerieD, I thought you were doing a great job as the detective. If you had made it one more night you could have probably given them enough info for a lock on the win.

[CaerieD]

Thanks, NAF1138! But towards the end of the first day, I'd already figured I was toast because of attention getting drawn to me. I wish I could have stuck around just one more day, because I do think it would have made a big difference. The way I left it, though, I'm not too sure.

[dnooman]

I think that chrisk's idea got CaerieD killed by the mafia. I'm not sure if that was chrisk's intention yet.

I'm pretty darn sure that Autolycus is vanilla town, otherwise he's being way too dangerous with his posting style.

Fern Forrest really strikes me as being one of the bad guys, not quite sure why, but then again I've only been skimming the thread.

Rysto is town I think, possibly with a town role, perhaps mason.

I'm willing to bet that at least one of the mafia was a player in the werewolf game as well.






*off topic
Being the cop is not always easy. After the first game started, I signed up on mafiascum.net for a game and was dealt the role of cop. There were only 7 players, 2 mafia, a cop, a doc, and three townies. Votes started flying on day 1 based on nothing, as always happens. I tossed out a vote for a guy that hadn't said much (a lurker vote, but it hadn't really been that long since he'd posted) just to get things moving.

One of the other posters decides that I'm scum, and makes it his mission to make everyone else think so too. We lynched a townie on day 1 , and the mafia killed the Doc on night 1 .

I investigated the guy that was riding me like a stolen horse, and guess what, he's scum. Day two starts and he points the finger at me again, so I had to role claim, and luckily I nailed a scum. Obviously he claims that I'm lying, mostly because the town is in a LyLo (lynch (correctly) or lose) situation. All I have to go on is my word, and nobody trust me, mostly because I was less than adept in my posts.

So, if the town decides I'm lying, we lose, if not we have a slim chance of winning because I die the next night anyways. This is all on DAY TWO!! Huge games may be difficult to some degree, but really small ones can go downhill really fast.

[CaerieD]

dnooman - Yeah, the cop role is very difficult. I messed up by not obfuscating my breadcrumbs well enough, though I'm not sure it was the Mafia that got me, since I think I made myself look like scum to the Vigilante rather than a power role to the Mafia. That fits with what I picked up from my investigations on the two nights I got to investigate, at any rate. I'd realized I'd messed up before they lynched Enfant Terrible, but things moved so fast there wasn't time to do damage control.

Aside from the two roles I confirmed, I think that Rysto is probably townie, possibly a power role.

I'm pretty sure that MadTheSwine is scum. He gave me a vibe in that direction from the start, but I didn't last long enough to check it out further.

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by CaerieD

Aside from the two roles I confirmed, I think that Rysto is probably townie, possibly a power role.

What were those again? Mennochio was one right?

[CaerieD]

Originally Posted by dnooman

What were those again? Mennochio was one right?

I'm trying to be cagey in case people from the game are lurking in here. If I get NAF1138's permission, I'll happily explain what I learned from my investigations and what it makes me think of the game.

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by CaerieD

I'm trying to be cagey in case people from the game are lurking in here. If I get NAF1138's permission, I'll happily explain what I learned from my investigations and what it makes me think of the game.

Oh, duh. I thought that it was already stated explicitly somewhere in the thread and I just missed it. By all means, keep it a secret until it's moot. I would never ask for someone to divulge secret info, especially if it could affect the game in progress.

I'm curious though.

[One And Only Wanderers]

looking really bad for town isn't it.

[CaerieD]

dnooman - Believe me, it's killing me to sit on the two confirmations I have, but my worry is someone cheating purposefully by coming in here now that the Detective can speak "freely." The temptation for that would be pretty overpowering!

It doesn't look too good for the town now. I can see a few good players talking a little too openly about strategizing with the Vigilante and SK, too, which concerns me. Chances are good somebody in that group is Mafia and the others are foolishly outing themselves as power roles. Meanwhile, not a single Mafioso has died.

[Ogre]

*floats through thread on gossamer wings made of righteous fury and vengeance*


Wait. Wrong gear. That's the Avenging Angel's getup.

[The Understander]

Originally Posted by Ogre

*floats through thread on gossamer wings made of righteous fury and vengeance*


Wait. Wrong gear. That's the Avenging Angel's getup.

Yeah, and besides, if anyone deserves a little fury and vengeance it's me. Get in line.

[CaerieD]

Originally Posted by Enfant Terrible

Yeah, and besides, if anyone deserves a little fury and vengeance it's me. Get in line.

No kidding! I'd look pretty closely at the people who jumped on the bandwagon against you, if I was still in the game. I'd be willing to bet at least half of them were Mafia.

On the plus side, apparently we have nachos in here.

[The Understander]

Originally Posted by CaerieD

No kidding! I'd look pretty closely at the people who jumped on the bandwagon against you, if I was still in the game. I'd be willing to bet at least half of them were Mafia.

On the plus side, apparently we have nachos in here.

Revenge is a dish best served with hot cheese and jalapenos.

Wanna know what's really awful? I was writing a fairly robust defense the night before it all went down. But the system timed out. At the time, Autolycus was way ahead in the voting, so I think: "Eh, it's probably safe to wait."

[CaerieD]

Oh, that hurts. I did my best to try to steer the suspicion away from you once it became clear that there was a big push from certain parties to see you gone, but there was no turning back that tide. What you posted shortly after your lynching was a pretty good defense, too.

So does the hot cheese/jalapeño revenge involve eating it, or dripping it onto people? Because it kind of sounds like some sort of bizarre torture method.

[NAF1138]

ok, I don't know how many folks who would like to play are reading this thread, but I need a sub.

One of the players feels that they don't have enough time to devote to the game.

If anyone wants to sub in, PM me. Fist come first served.

[The Understander]

Originally Posted by CaerieD

Oh, that hurts. I did my best to try to steer the suspicion away from you once it became clear that there was a big push from certain parties to see you gone, but there was no turning back that tide. What you posted shortly after your lynching was a pretty good defense, too.

So does the hot cheese/jalapeño revenge involve eating it, or dripping it onto people? Because it kind of sounds like some sort of bizarre torture method.

Eating it, then locking my victims in the bathroom with me as nature takes it's course. Of course, what are nachos without bean dip?

[One And Only Wanderers]

sub me! i'm sure a zombie wondering round town wouldn't be at all suspicious

what, No, you say? ....

[cowgirl]

Hi guys, thanks for saving some nachos for me. Here, I brought the margaritas. Who's in?

Sorry I distrusted you, CaerieD, and voted to lynch you, ET. I'm really bad at this game, it seems.

I think the post that made me look suspicious was the one where I asked what each role has to gain by posting analysis. It was an honest question - and upon reflection, I wouldn't have posted it if I had a power role.

But a couple of people have said I didn't post much. Honestly, I spent the whole morning catching up with the thread; posted my response (which was the ninth vote for friend ET) and the day was over. It wasn't humanly possible for me to post more than I did! I'm half glad I'm out because now I can have my life back.

[CaerieD]

No hard feelings, cowgirl. Like I said in this thread earlier, I think my attempts to leave breadcrumbs made me come up as scum on a few people's radar, which is why I think I was a VIG/SK kill rather than Mafia.

Considering how intense this game is this time around, I was kind of relieved to get eliminated, too. I wish I could have managed just one more day since I think I could have cinched a townie win if I'd had a little more time, but I wasn't too upset. The first day was absolutely crazy and I got nothing done all morning just trying to keep up.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by One And Only Wanderers

sub me! i'm sure a zombie wondering round town wouldn't be at all suspicious

what, No, you say? ....

Hey you want back in? Its yours if you are serious.

[Nava]

Hell cowgirl, that thread is some sort of avalanche (e-avalanche? e-valanche?). I get dizzy when I look at it!

[CaerieD]

I find it quite interesting that Winston Smith is pushing so hard for the day to move on, especially after the fiasco of the first lynching. I'm surprised more people aren't suspicious of him. Queuing seems overly aggressive about lynching Blaster Master on fairly flimsy evidence. The biggest "clue" against Blaster would be that I refused to vote with him against Enfant.

Man, watching this from the safety of this thread makes it increasingly obvious who is with the Mafia and who isn't. I think one of the things that's going to screw the townies up is that it looks like the Mafia are accusing each other and voting against one another, making it harder to out them by watching voting patterns. There are just too many shifting alliances going on.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by CaerieD

I find it quite interesting that Winston Smith is pushing so hard for the day to move on, especially after the fiasco of the first lynching. I'm surprised more people aren't suspicious of him. Queuing seems overly aggressive about lynching Blaster Master on fairly flimsy evidence. The biggest "clue" against Blaster would be that I refused to vote with him against Enfant.

Man, watching this from the safety of this thread makes it increasingly obvious who is with the Mafia and who isn't. I think one of the things that's going to screw the townies up is that it looks like the Mafia are accusing each other and voting against one another, making it harder to out them by watching voting patterns. There are just too many shifting alliances going on.

I was wondering if it is easier to make calls when you are not in the game. To me the mafia are being blindingly obvious with one or two exceptions. But I don't know if they really are or not. Who do you think is in the mob?