Heroes 10/13/08 "Angels and Monsters"

[Lightray]

Trying to avoid last week's delay before someone started a discussion thread, this time.

So, discuss.

[Mahaloth]

OK, explain it to me.

Mohinder can make Shelob-like cocoons? When was this revealed?

How is Sylar resisting "the hunger"?

[DigitalC]

Originally Posted by Mahaloth

OK, explain it to me.

Mohinder can make Shelob-like cocoons? When was this revealed?

Hmm, this episode?

How is Sylar resisting "the hunger"?

Hes not, last time they went on a mission he killed one of the bad guys they were supposed to catch.

[Rucksinator]

Hey, who of us here HASN'T done something bad to get into some kind of group? Huh?

[DigitalC]

The new villain is pretty creepy. Hiro stabbing Ando was ridiculous. I think the season is getting better but its not quite there yet.

[DocCathode]

I also found Hiro's stabbing of Ando completely unbelievable.

[Xan]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

I also found Hiro's stabbing of Ando completely unbelievable.

You don't believe he did it?

[Lightray]

Eh. Hiro can essentially stop time. No way he stabbed Ando without setting something up beforehand.

Guess Sylar doesn't have Dale's super-hearing power anymore. Or he was just playing Noah out.

And it is confirmed: Peter's stupidity is genetic. Also carriers: Nathan and Claire.

Nathan accuses his mom of horrible things, including doping up his brother. And then... leaves his brother in the care of dear ol' mom.

Claire... well, her whole story arc this season is full of Mohinder-esque levels of stupid. And her birth mom isn't coming off as too bright, either.

Happily, Mohinder webbed-up Maya! w00t!

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Lightray

Eh. Hiro can essentially stop time. No way he stabbed Ando without setting something up beforehand.

Exactly, Hiro would never have done that to Ando. That's not what a Hero does.

Guess Sylar doesn't have Dale's super-hearing power anymore. Or he was just playing Noah out.

I'm pretty sure he heard the whole thing.

[Wile E]

I guessed last week that the new mysterious guy behind the scenes would be Papa Petrelli but I was still quite annoyed that only a day or so after airing last week's episode they start announcing in teasers for this week's show that the new mysterious guy is Papa Petrelli. Sheesh, save something for the actual show.

I don't believe that Hiro killed Ando either. I think he stopped time and set something up to make it look like he killed him. But it was nice to see one of the two acknowledging how bad they were at being Heroes. Oh, and I thought I brought this up last week, but why the hell dig up the coffin when all Hiro needs to go is blink Adam in and out of the coffin? Isn't that how he put him in there in the first place?

Maybe they'll keep Peter in a coma for a while to keep him out of trouble. I wonder if they could put Mo in a coma for a while, too? With his shirt off, of course.

[maikai]

I missed it. Does anyone know when it'll be on NBC.com?

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by Mahaloth

...

How is Sylar resisting "the hunger"?

Apples?

[Tangent]

I would say that Mohinder is crossing the line of no return into Villiansville, but seeing how they keep trying to rehabilitate Sylar--I guess no one is beyond redemption.

That really bugs me more than any of the other awfully stupid aspects of this show. Sylar was INCREDIBLY dangerous and evil in season 1 and season 2. He is one of the most powerful of the supers and is practically impossible to control. And his personality and nature was pretty much evil through-and-through. He murdered people without conscience or remorse. He was NOT "misunderstood," or crying out for help, or having some kind of breakdown. He was murderously evil and he LIKED it.

And now The Company is ignoring all that and they're trusting him to work for them? The shows writers have pretty much turned him into a boy scout with a dark past? I am having real trouble getting over how sloppy the writing is so far this season.

What I liked:

Vortex-guy was cool and it made sense (!) for HRG to try to use him to get rid of Sylar. I wish they hadn't "killed" him off so quickly.

I had guessed a while back that the elder Parkman was responsible for the visions of Linderman.

I like Daphne, so I'm glad she's still involved in things.


I'm sure Hiro faked the Ando-skewering somehow, but Daphne was there and she wouldn't have been fooled by it--she can still move around and interact with Hiro even when he has "stopped" time. I wonder if that will be addressed?

[USCDiver]

Originally Posted by Tangent

That really bugs me more than any of the other awfully stupid aspects of this show. Sylar was INCREDIBLY dangerous and evil in season 1 and season 2. He is one of the most powerful of the supers and is practically impossible to control. And his personality and nature was pretty much evil through-and-through. He murdered people without conscience or remorse. He was NOT "misunderstood," or crying out for help, or having some kind of breakdown. He was murderously evil and he LIKED it.

I think they are very awkwardly trying to make Sylar all better now that he's got a lovin' mummy!

[Girl Next Door]

Who was the actor playing Papa Petrelli?

[JThunder]

Originally Posted by Wile E

Oh, and I thought I brought this up last week, but why the hell dig up the coffin when all Hiro needs to go is blink Adam in and out of the coffin?

Presumably so they could talk to him while the coffin lid was closed... which they did, at one point.

Of course, this doesn't explain why he didn't simply blink the coffin itself up out of the ground.

[Tangent]

Originally Posted by Girl Next Door

Who was the actor playing Papa Petrelli?

Robert Forster

[Oslo Ostragoth]

Originally Posted by Lightray

Happily, Mohinder webbed-up Maya! w00t!

I have been enjoying Maya's Americanization. Lots of boobage, donchaknow.

[Cuckoorex]

Originally Posted by JThunder

Presumably so they could talk to him while the coffin lid was closed... which they did, at one point.

Of course, this doesn't explain why he didn't simply blink the coffin itself up out of the ground.

Previously, when Hiro slowed time down, he still had to move things around, make them happen, etc. It only appeared instantaneous to people in "normal" time. So he would still have to actually dig up the coffin. He can't just teleport people or things at will.

I know there are still a lot of naysayers, on this board and at large, but I have to say I'm enjoying this season more and more. I love the shifts in allegiances and the manipulation that's going on. For those who think it's unrealistic for Sylar to suddenly be a good guy that wants to prove he can be reformed...just note the look on his face after HRG gets out of the car to talk to Claire after Sylar tells him that she doesn't believe him, and that he'll never understand people like them...you don't think Sylar has a bigger end-game in mind? Awesome.

[Johnny Q]

Of course now we know why Ando killed Hiro in the future. Just returning the favor.

[Annie]

Originally Posted by Cuckoorex

For those who think it's unrealistic for Sylar to suddenly be a good guy that wants to prove he can be reformed...just note the look on his face after HRG gets out of the car to talk to Claire after Sylar tells him that she doesn't believe him, and that he'll never understand people like them...you don't think Sylar has a bigger end-game in mind? Awesome.

Someone has inappropriate niece feelings- Sylar thinks he found a soul mate. After that "I felt your pain/Don't even look at her, psychofreak" exchange at the House of Vortex, I'm surprised Noah didn't make him ride in the trunk.

[Shalmanese]

Nathan: I've been there, I wanted to tell the world, I even called a press conference
Tracy: What happened?

What the fuck? How could you not know what happened? That was the reason you suggested he get tapped for the senate seat.

[Half Man Half Wit]

Well, the stupid virus sure seems to be catching, but I've come to accept that by now -- what bugs me more about this season is that they've basically just flipped the 'opposite allegiance' switch on every character; now they're even trying to villainize Hiro. Though I don't believe for a second he killed Ando, any more than I believe that Sylar's gonna turn all lovey-dovey (even though he's been shown to be redeemable). I get that they're wanting to show how everyone's got a dark/light/morally ambiguous in a different way side, but they're going way too all-out on that front, just turning all of them into their stereotypical opposite ostensibly. Well, except for Parkman, it seems.

Also, Peter's out of commission again, owing to his uber-powers -- either he's got to be out, or stupid, else he'd just be too much of a deal breaker. With him using his powers even remotely efficiently, there wouldn't really be any conceivable threat he couldn't handle, so they keep having to castrate him. That's just bad character design.

Other than that, though, I thought this episode really picked up in the end, even though it seems they're a bit fast with their reveals -- one wonders what's still in store.

[DigitalC]

Originally Posted by Cuckoorex

Previously, when Hiro slowed time down, he still had to move things around, make them happen, etc. It only appeared instantaneous to people in "normal" time. So he would still have to actually dig up the coffin. He can't just teleport people or things at will.

Hiro can bend space and time, teleporting has always been part of his powers. He didn't walk to new york on the first episode, he teleported there.

[JThunder]

Time travel has always been part of his power set as well. So no, he doesn't just slow things down.

[CandidGamera]

Heroes has some sloppy, recycled crap going on, but I can't fault the Hiro/coffin bit.

Hiro can only teleport things he is touching. He can't touch the coffin without digging it up, ergo, he can't simply retrieve it.

When we see Kenzei 'arrive' in the coffin, if I recall correctly, there's no indication that he was simply teleported there - Hiro could have stopped time, dug the hole, and buried him, just as easily.

[Enderw24]

Originally Posted by Shalmanese

Nathan: I've been there, I wanted to tell the world, I even called a press conference
Tracy: What happened?

What the fuck? How could you not know what happened? That was the reason you suggested he get tapped for the senate seat.

I had the exact same reaction. There are only three possible explanations

1) Tracy's just hopelessly stupid
2) The writers are hopelessly stupid and completely forgot what happened in a major plot point a mere four episodes ago.
3) The writers believe that the audience is hopelessly stupid or needs a refresher on what happened a mere four episodes ago, in which case the writers are STILL stupid because they couldn't come up with a way to do it that didn't contradict the fact that Tracy should damn well know what happened to Nathan.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by CandidGamera

Heroes has some sloppy, recycled crap going on, but I can't fault the Hiro/coffin bit.

Hiro can only teleport things he is touching. He can't touch the coffin without digging it up, ergo, he can't simply retrieve it.

When we see Kenzei 'arrive' in the coffin, if I recall correctly, there's no indication that he was simply teleported there - Hiro could have stopped time, dug the hole, and buried him, just as easily.

Ever lifted a coffin? With a body in it? There's a reason there are typically 6 or 8 pallbearers. And Hiro has never been represented as a strong dude.

[Lightray]

Originally Posted by Tangent

I'm sure Hiro faked the Ando-skewering somehow, but Daphne was there and she wouldn't have been fooled by it--she can still move around and interact with Hiro even when he has "stopped" time. I wonder if that will be addressed?

Based on what we've seen of Daphne's powers so far, I think that her super-speed is either "on" or "off". It was more obvious this episode when she was interacting with ParkmanSr/Linderman, but when she foiled Hiro's timestop in the season opener she was already moving at super-speed (and, apparently, still caught by it).

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

Ever lifted a coffin? With a body in it? There's a reason there are typically 6 or 8 pallbearers. And Hiro has never been represented as a strong dude.

Hiro was casually, indeed impishly, blinking Adama in and out of the coffin. The only reason for the digging was, I figure, the dramatic "apparently-dead guy's eyes abruptly snap open" bit, which was also used for Mo's web-buddy, so I guess the writer's really really like that bit.

[crazyjoe]

The way I looked at it, he had to dig down to the coffin, then step down onto it and teleport it up and out of the hole. No way he brought it up on his own, but we do know he's able to teleport other people and objects.

I assumed putting Adam in and out of the coffin was a combination of stopping time and teleporting.

[Half Man Half Wit]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

I assumed putting Adam in and out of the coffin was a combination of stopping time and teleporting.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought. He hasn't been explicitly shown to be able to teleport other objects without touching them, so I think it's safest to assume he can't.

Another thing, this time, we actually got a power worthy of the 'you don't wanna know'-line: Puppet Master guy. I'm hoping he'll stick around for a bit, that's a fabulously creepy power.

[D_Odds]

Nitpicking Heroes isn't nearly as much fun as nitpicking 24, especially considering the lameness of most (but not all - Tracy forgetting her raison d'etre certainly deserves lambasting) of the nitpicks.

But while we are nitpicking Hiro and Adam, what would lead anyone to believe that his power is so fine that he could teleport Adam into an empty, already buried coffin, or back out again? I don't think Hiro wants to teleport himself into a solid object - even he is not that stupid!

[Wile E]

Gee, I didn't think my comment about the coffin would get so much discussion. The reason I felt they were telling us that Hiro teleported Adam in their originally is that I thought it was his father's grave - didn't they show us the headstone at that time? And since Dad had already had his funeral and been interred and the gravesite didn't look disturbed it made it seem like he was teleported in there. Of course if this was Dad's grave or anyone else's, why wasn't there a body in there with Adam?

But anyway, it's just a little thing that bugged me and I don't care about it that much to argue about it and have someone accuse me of not liking the show because they don't use my ideas.

As for the Tracy/Nathan exchange, that was bad writing. She should have asked why he decided not to tell after he was shot. The being part shot is obvious but why he changed his mind wasn't.

Does anyone else wonder if Peter and Sylar are fraternal twins? They seem to be the same age and it seems more plausible that Mama P. could have hid one infant of a multiple birth easier than an entire separate pregnancy. Also, Pete and Sylar's powers are similar. Have we even seen anything that gave their supposed ages?

[Lightray]

I think that CandidGamera has it right -- Hiro basically needs to touch what he is teleporting. Every time he's taken Ando along, he's grabbed ahold of Ando. When Future Peter teleported Parkman to Africa, same deal. Once Adam was out of the coffin, Hiro could 'port him back in -- but couldn't 'port him out willy-nilly.

[kidchameleon]

Originally Posted by Wile E

Apples?

Having Life on after Heroes has let Syler learn a couple of things.

[D_Odds]

Originally Posted by Wile E

Does anyone else wonder if Peter and Sylar are fraternal twins? They seem to be the same age and it seems more plausible that Mama P. could have hid one infant of a multiple birth easier than an entire separate pregnancy. Also, Pete and Sylar's powers are similar. Have we even seen anything that gave their supposed ages?

I'm not sold that Mama Petrelli really is Sylar's mom - I think that she said that to try and manipulate Sylar.

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by D_Odds

I'm not sold that Mama Petrelli really is Sylar's mom - I think that she said that to try and manipulate Sylar.

I wasn't convinced either until the teasers announced that the guy who was father to three Heroes (and showed Nathan, Peter and Sylar's pics) was back. Granted teasers try to mislead by cutting up the scenes to look like one thing is happening when it's really something else but in this case they just came right out and said that.

[Rucksinator]

Originally Posted by D_Odds

I'm not sold that Mama Petrelli really is Sylar's mom - I think that she said that to try and manipulate Sylar.

FWIW, If she's lying, they're still believing it 4 years in the future.

[D_Odds]

Originally Posted by Rucksinator

FWIW, If she's lying, they're still believing it 4 years in the future.

All it takes is for a little time-mucking by Hiro or Peter for that change. The future is very fluid, and the past is written in erasable ink.

[Annie]

Originally Posted by D_Odds

I'm not sold that Mama Petrelli really is Sylar's mom - I think that she said that to try and manipulate Sylar.

Quite likely; maybe he came thought donor egg/IVF or something. But they seem to be entrenching the idea-at least Sylar won't quit yapping about it. I don't remember if Angela told anyone else herself.

Originally Posted by Wile E

Does anyone else wonder if Peter and Sylar are fraternal twins? They seem to be the same age and it seems more plausible that Mama P. could have hid one infant of a multiple birth easier than an entire separate pregnancy. Also, Pete and Sylar's powers are similar. Have we even seen anything that gave their supposed ages?

Angela said Peter was 26 when he was in the hospital with his mystery fever after Fallout. I think Kaito said something about waiting 30 years for Hiro to 'manifest' or something; and Parkman said his dad left him when he was 13, and he hadn't seen him for 25 years, so he's at least 38.

/been watching S1 on bluray. Don't recommend that, actually- a lot of 5 o'clock shadow in this show.....

[Lightray]

Originally Posted by Annie

/been watching S1 on bluray. Don't recommend that, actually- a lot of 5 o'clock shadow in this show.....

Does it make it easier when they go for the overly-moody dark lighting scenes, though? Last night when black-guy-whose-name-I-can't-recall was loading Adam into the van, all I could see of him was eyes and teeth. Heck, Hiro and Ando were almost shadowed out.

And I've got a huge (not HD) plasma screen.

They've done that before, trying to make a scene look dark and menacing and moody. Mostly, though, all they've managed is to obscure what is actually happening in the scene.

[Annie]

In season 1 they have mostly kept the lights on .

Further to the 'is Sylar the missing Petrelli kid?" discussion, I just watched the Canadian ep, and the previouslies had something I think wasn't show before- a scene with Sylar and Angela in her office where she says

SPOILER:

"I've dreamt the future, Gabriel,I've seen how important you are, but only if you can master your urges".

That sounds like she's trying to manipulate him to the good side. I think that was a cut scene-they also had a wee one with Claire telling her cheer leading buddy she needed an excuse to get out of the house, they didn't show that before.

[CandidGamera]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

Ever lifted a coffin? With a body in it? There's a reason there are typically 6 or 8 pallbearers. And Hiro has never been represented as a strong dude.

I'm not saying Hiro lifted the coffin. Your comment does not contradict mine in any way, but you present it as a contradiction.

[Mama Zappa]

Originally Posted by pulehoopo

I missed it. Does anyone know when it'll be on NBC.com?

I missed it too but I was able to watch it today on the web.

[Cuckoorex]

Originally Posted by Enderw24

I had the exact same reaction. There are only three possible explanations

1) Tracy's just hopelessly stupid
2) The writers are hopelessly stupid and completely forgot what happened in a major plot point a mere four episodes ago.
3) The writers believe that the audience is hopelessly stupid or needs a refresher on what happened a mere four episodes ago, in which case the writers are STILL stupid because they couldn't come up with a way to do it that didn't contradict the fact that Tracy should damn well know what happened to Nathan.

Or it could be:

4.) Since Nathan never got the chance to make his big reveal, she (and the world at large) had no idea what his press conference would be about. For all she knows, he was planning on revealing his powers at a press conference years ago but was stopped because someone blackmailed him. So when he says he was shot, at that point Tracey would realize what the ill-fated press conference was going to be about.

[Mama Zappa]

Any idea what they've done with Molly now that Parkman is in Africa doing the spirit quest thing, and Mohinder is turning into Evil Spiderman?

[Lightray]

With any luck, Molly is the buffet special Mama Petrelli has planned for Level 5.

[EvilHamsterOnCrack]

#4 sounds like the best explanation. As far as Sylar suddenly not being crazy, I think trying to take claire's power also messed with his mind, as as soon as he actually touched her brain, was when this big change happened. Also ties into the line: "I could feel the pain I caused you"... he got compassion from claire's brain, or something.

[Cuckoorex]

Originally Posted by EvilHamsterOnCrack

#4 sounds like the best explanation. As far as Sylar suddenly not being crazy, I think trying to take claire's power also messed with his mind, as as soon as he actually touched her brain, was when this big change happened. Also ties into the line: "I could feel the pain I caused you"... he got compassion from claire's brain, or something.

So Sylar learned how to feel empathy, while Claire lost her ability to feel pain entirely...hmm. I guess there's a weird sort of symmetry there.