What was really the deal with Bobby Fischer?

[Argent Towers]

I've always wondered about Bobby Fischer's motivations for his bizarre anti-Semitic rants. Towards the end of his life he sort of became world famous for preaching hatred - real, vicious, Nazi-like hatred, not a slur here and a snide remark there - against the Jews. Of course, all of this was all the weirder because Fischer himself is a Jew - as if you couldn't tell by looking at his Jewey face already - his mother, being 100% Jewish by birth, makes Fischer officially a Jew by birth whether he wants to be one or not. It doesn't end there - supposedly Fischer's biological father might also have been a Jew, too, although this is unproven. But that's not even really important; what matters is that Fischer, no matter how much he praised Hitler and called for the elimination of the Jews, had Jew blood pumping through his heart - a great deal of Jew blood.

Fischer started out his crusade against the Jews as a young man, starting in 1961. It started out as seemingly mild criticism: "Yeah, there are too many Jews in chess. They seem to have taken away the class of the game. They don't seem to dress so nicely, you know. That's what I don't like." That was one of his first public statements against the Jews. He would go on to say such things as "the United States is a farce controlled by dirty, hook-nosed, circumcised Jew bastards," and "The Jews have been hardened against Christ, against decency for thousands of years... They're gonna have to be annihilated, Eugene." One of his more bizarre comments: "I'm very concerned because I think the Jews want to drive the elephants to extinction because the trunk of an elephant reminds them of an uncircumcised penis. I'm absolutely serious about that... Jews are sick, they're mental cases. "

It's all too easy to explain this away as "craziness." Just like people dismiss Hitler as having been insane, it's easy to say that Fischer was just a lunatic, but that's a sort of cop-out honestly. He was still completely lucid, able to play chess brilliantly; to his dying day, he never exhibited any real signs of true mental illness. He was merely filled with pure hatred for the Jews.

The question is, where did this come from? What was the source of this incredible and seemingly irrational hatred? It would be one thing if Fischer was raised in an anti-Semitic environment, but the exact opposite is true: he was raised by a Jewish mother, surrounded by Jews in Brooklyn, and throughout his whole career he studied and played chess with many Jews. It's not like his Jew-hatred could be excused by ignorance or something; he wasn't some kind of savage idiot. He was a smart, well-dressed, articulate man, and yet he had this all-consuming hatred of his own people.

Does anyone have any clue as to what really went on in Fischer's head?

[ElvisL1ves]

Schizophrenia. This was also a guy who had his fillings removed so the CIA couldn't transmit mind-control signals through them.

[Miller]

I thought it was the Russians? But yeah, being able to play chess is not incompatible with being crazy. Hell, you look at some of the wierdos who are draw to the game, you might think it was a requirement.

[treis]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

Does anyone have any clue as to what really went on in Fischer's head?

It's clear that he was a brilliant chess player with a disorder that fell somewhere on the paranoid schizophrenic spectrum. His disorder is the reason for his rantings and ravings about Jews (and the myriad of other problems he had dealing with people). Why Anti-Semitism? Well, it's a classic. It says your crazy, but not crazy like "the lizard people are conspiring against me" crazy.

[kunilou]

Fischer wasn't the only crazy chess champion -- he may not even have been the craziest.

Paul Morphy had a persecution complex, believed his family was poisoning his food and became a recluse.

Wilhelm Steinitz challenged God to chess matches (and claimed to win them), believed he could move the pieces through mental telepathy and was put in mental institutions on two different continents.

Emmanuel Lasker believed that one of his opponents was trying to hypnotize him.

Compared to some of them, Fischer was just cranky.

[DiggitCamara]

Originally Posted by Miller

I thought it was the Russians? But yeah, being able to play chess is not incompatible with being crazy. Hell, you look at some of the wierdos who are draw to the game, you might think it was a requirement.

"Schachnovelle" by Stefan Zweig explores this notion rather well.

[Martin Hyde]

Bobby Fischer had all kinds of weird behavior aside from antisemitism. I can only guess the OP is under the impression that Fischer was perfectly normal aside from being an antisemite because the OP is extremely sensitive to antisemitism.

Belief in conspiracy theories of various kinds is a hallmark of people suffering mental illness. It always tends to be either some sort of potentially "mysterious" group, some powerful entity, or even just a group that a general undercurrent of people believe to be nefarious.

A rough analogue to the Jews is the Freemasons, who mentally ill people have been concerned about for centuries. Now, the Freemasons actually were scattered throughout the highest levels of politics, but these days they are almost entirely made up of very old men and they have very little success with getting young people interested in Freemasonry. That doesn't mean modern day schizophrenics don't believe all kinds of conspiracy theories about the Freemasons.

The Catholic Church has been a popular target for over a thousand years, and the CIA is of course one of the most popular ones at present.

I think a lot of it starts out of plausibility. I mean, in the Middle Ages the Catholic Church was trying to control society, and individual Catholic leaders often had their hands involved in all kinds of corruption. The CIA has been involved in some nasty, illegal shit throughout history.

How the Jews get lumped in with organizations like the CIA/Catholic Church is explained by a long history of living "apart" from the rest of society. It's certainly not the case today, but for most of European history Jews were an isolated subgroup and being an isolated subgroup has always lead to the majority (in their ignorance) buying in to all kinds of conspiracy theories and hatemongering. When there is already a wide body of belief that Jews are involved in various world-controlling conspiracies by perfectly sane racists, it is no wonder than a crazy person might buy into them.

[The Second Stone]

Fischer was hardly well adjusted. He was a recluse and generally paranoid that everyone was out to get him. I really couldn't say about schizophrenia as some have suggested. Why Jews? Probably because he was around a lot of Jewish people during his most formative years and reacted as though deeply offended by his odd behavior and Anti-Semitic pronouncements.

[The Lurker Above]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

Towards the end of his life he sort of became world famous for preaching hatred - real, vicious, Nazi-like hatred, not a slur here and a snide remark there - against the Jews. Of course, all of this was all the weirder because Fischer himself is a Jew - as if you couldn't tell by looking at his Jewey face already - his mother, being 100% Jewish by birth, makes Fischer officially a Jew by birth whether he wants to be one or not.

Others have covered the 'he's just crazy' angle already so I'm going to go with this bit. I don't recall where I first heard this argument (about baptism in my case but it's the same argument), but it made quite an impact on me. "Your mother is jewish therefore you're jewish" is a rule of Judaism, yes? If you don't consider yourself jewish why would you feel yourself bound in any way to jewish rules? So it's entirely consistant to be born of a jewish mother and not be jewish.

[Lord Mondegreen]

There have been a number of good threads in the past about Fischer. My favourite was after his death, titled R.I.P Bobby Fischer, which contained some really good information and (IMO) some particularly fascinating stuff from glee and Liberal, both of whom clearly know their stuff.

[Never Say Dice]

He was fine until the US shunned him for playing in Yugoslavia.
I think that just frustrated him, and he was probably trying to focus that when a couple of Jewish diplomats got in the cross hairs.

[CalMeacham]

When I was growing up, Fisher had a regular chess column in the magazine Boys' Life. Unless it was ghosted by someone else, he came across as a pretty intelligent and level-headed individual.

His pyrotechnics during the games against Spassky seemed purposeful, not crazy. It was only years later that he seemed to blossom into a full-bloom loon.

Is it possible that his weirdness came upon him gradually, and he was pretty much "normal" in those early years? I didn't hear anyone decrying his craziness until he went into seclusion.

[Lust4Life]

Originally Posted by Martin Hyde

.

.

The Catholic Church has been a popular target for over a thousand years, and the CIA is of course one of the most popular ones at present.

I think a lot of it starts out of plausibility. I mean, in the Middle Ages the Catholic Church was trying to control society, and individual Catholic leaders often had their hands involved in all kinds of corruption. The CIA has been involved in some nasty, illegal shit throughout history.

Don't wish to hijack but the Catholics have been a target for people because of the Inquisition,the Borgia Pope,The Pope in ww2 turning a blind eye to the massacre of the Jews,Gypsies and the mentally ill and the present day world wide evidence of child abuse by members of the church and efforts to cover it up.

So the C church does not fall into the category of irrational hatred in the same way as the stories about Jews sacrificing christian babies and plotting to take over the world etc.

I personally hold no strong views on Catholics myself,there are good people and there are bad people is my opinion.

KGB officers in the West during the Cold war actively disseminated anti C.I.A. stories along the lines of the C.I.A. were the creators of AIDS,murdered Jack Kennedy and so on as part of their destabilisation process.

Sometimes the stories sank without trace but many became gospel to the credulous.
(Not that failure bothered the Russians,if one story didn't catch on then they kept manufacturing new ones until one did)

[kelly5078]

Originally Posted by Argent_Towers

Jewey face

WTF?!?

[Nars Glinley]

Originally Posted by kelly5078

WTF?!?

I always thought he looked Russian. http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...AP_468x459.jpg

[E-Sabbath]

Originally Posted by The Lurker Above

"Your mother is jewish therefore you're jewish" is a rule of Judaism, yes? If you don't consider yourself jewish why would you feel yourself bound in any way to jewish rules? So it's entirely consistant to be born of a jewish mother and not be jewish.

... So if you're born of a German mother, you don't have to be German? And if your mom's black, I'm pretty sure you're black, too. Same with jewish. It's a culture _and_ a religion.

[FinnAgain]

Also an ethnicity.

[Argent Towers]

What can I say, Fischer has a Jewey face. Especially towards the end of his life, he really cranked the Jew-o-meter up to 11. Here, for instance, if he was wearing something other than that denim shirt, he looks straight outta Boro Park.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

What can I say, Fischer has a Jewey face. Especially towards the end of his life, he really cranked the Jew-o-meter up to 11. Here, for instance, if he was wearing something other than that denim shirt, he looks straight outta Boro Park.

More like Grizzly Adams's twin. (Although I don't recall Grizzly Adams being an anti-semitic dick.)

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

More like Grizzly Adams's twin. (Although I don't recall Grizzly Adams being an anti-semitic dick.)

Maybe if Grizzly Adams and Judd Hirsch had a love child...

[PoorYorick]

Good Lord! He was a mess, wasn't he?

[E-Sabbath]

Eh, if he was wearing a hat, he'd look like any number of orthodox.

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

What can I say, Fischer has a Jewey face. Especially towards the end of his life, he really cranked the Jew-o-meter up to 11. Here, for instance, if he was wearing something other than that denim shirt, he looks straight outta Boro Park.

Between this and the "Jewed him down is a compliment, really," it's starting to feel like the Augusta National around here.

[The Lurker Above]

Originally Posted by E-Sabbath

... So if you're born of a German mother, you don't have to be German? And if your mom's black, I'm pretty sure you're black, too. Same with jewish. It's a culture _and_ a religion.

Originally Posted by FinnAgain

Also an ethnicity.

Sure it's a culture, religion and ethnicity. But the argument:

P1) The children of a jewish mother are Jewish
P2) Bobby Fisher's mother was Jewish
C1) Therefore Bobby Fisher is Jewish.

is either using only the religious definition of Jewish or incorrect. And I stand behind my argument that if you don't consider yourself Jewish there's no reason to accept P1.

[E-Sabbath]

The children of a german mother are german.

The children of an american mother are american.

The children of a black mother are black.

It does break down with 'the children of a white mother are white', but we all know that trick.

Bobby's ethnically jewish. By, not just jewish standards, but german standards, and pretty much every other standard that exists.

You're just treating it as if it were merely a religious option. It's not just a religious option. It's a tribe.

[Fantome]

Originally Posted by E-Sabbath

... So if you're born of a German mother, you don't have to be German? And if your mom's black, I'm pretty sure you're black, too. Same with jewish. It's a culture _and_ a religion.

The OP's argument was:

his mother, being 100% Jewish by birth, makes Fischer officially a Jew by birth whether he wants to be one or not.

The Lurker Above's point is that this "officially" a Jew stuff if your mother is a Jew but not your father is meaningless since this doesn't apply to someone that doesn't accept this part of Jewish dogma.

[Argent Towers]

"Officially" in the sense of, "the official policy of the Jewish religion." Since there's no other body which determines whether someone is a Jew or not, I would say that the most authoritative source of who is or isn't "officially" Jewish is the Jewish law itself. "Officially", in this case, means, "in theory," not in practice.

[Fantome]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

"Officially" in the sense of, "the official policy of the Jewish religion." Since there's no other body which determines whether someone is a Jew or not, I would say that the most authoritative source of who is or isn't "officially' Jewish is the Jewish law itself. 'Officially", in this case, means, "in theory," not in practice.

But you aren't "officially" Jewish "in theory" unless you adhere to the policy and believe that policy carries any weight. That was The Lurker Above's point. You stated:

Of course, all of this was all the weirder because Fischer himself is a Jew - as if you couldn't tell by looking at his Jewey face already - his mother, being 100% Jewish by birth, makes Fischer officially a Jew by birth whether he wants to be one or not.

Fischer being an official Jew doesn't make anything weirder unless Fischer bought into the "policy".

[E-Sabbath]

You're still jewish enough for Hitler to kill you if it's only your dad. I think that's a good enough definition for the rest of the world. So the Jewish religion is more restrictive than the rest of the world is. And that's a big deal how?

[Guinastasia]

Ethically, he's Jewish. And practically, he was a self-loathing Jew. Well, that and a complete and utter asshole.

[treis]

Originally Posted by E-Sabbath

The children of a german mother are german.

The children of an american mother are american.

The children of a black mother are black.

It does break down with 'the children of a white mother are white', but we all know that trick.

Bobby's ethnically jewish. By, not just jewish standards, but german standards, and pretty much every other standard that exists.

You're just treating it as if it were merely a religious option. It's not just a religious option. It's a tribe.

The children of a german mother and a non-german father are half german by most accounts. I don't know what Fischer's mothers ethnicity was, but his father was not Jewish. That makes him half Jewish, at most.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by E-Sabbath

You're still jewish enough for Hitler to kill you if it's only your dad.

You sound like my mother. Who was not a genealogy expert.

[E-Sabbath]

Being Jewish is a lot like being black. One drop is enough for the whole thing, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. They wouldn't have let him in the country clubs in the 70s, you know.

[Lochdale]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

]. Of course, all of this was all the weirder because Fischer himself is a Jew - as ]if you couldn't tell by looking at his Jewey face already - his mother, being 100% Jewish by birth, makes Fischer officially a Jew by birth whether he wants to be one or not. ?

The only issue I have here is that if Fischer himself didn't want to be considered Jewish then we should respect that.

That, and his chess, should be about the only thing we should respect about this unpleasant man. I always saw it as profound, mostly undiagnosed, mental illness. A sad waste to an otherwise brilliant chess player.

[Lochdale]

Originally Posted by E-Sabbath

Being Jewish is a lot like being black. One drop is enough for the whole thing, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. They wouldn't have let him in the country clubs in the 70s, you know.

Eh? Perhaps but let's give the nut his due, if he didn't consider himself Jewish (and I have no idea if he did or not) then he isn't Jewish from his point of view. Not imposing others impressions onto him, if he didn't consider himself a Jew then I don't think he's a Jew.

[Argent Towers]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

Ethically, he's Jewish. And practically, he was a self-loathing Jew. Well, that and a complete and utter asshole.

I assume you mean ethnically, not ethically.

[Argent Towers]

Originally Posted by Lochdale

Eh? Perhaps but let's give the nut his due, if he didn't consider himself Jewish (and I have no idea if he did or not) then he isn't Jewish from his point of view.

OK, but he also didn't consider himself to be crazy. He was very sane, from his point of view. But that doesn't mean it was true.

The only issue I have here is that if Fischer himself didn't want to be considered Jewish then we should respect that.

See, if it was just an issue of him converting to a different religion, or declaring himself atheist, I would respect that. Robert Novak, for instance, was born Jewish, but he converted to Catholicism. And even though Robert Novak was an asshole, I can still respect that conversion, because it's not like he started bashing the Jews after he did it. But Fischer went far beyond that, into very different territory. He didn't just declare himself no longer Jewish religiously, he insisted that he was no longer ethnically Jewish, and THAT is insanity, since his mother was Jewish, his biological father is suspected to be Jewish, he grew up in Brooklyn around Jewish intellectuals and bohemians. For him to go from that, to becoming an absolute Nazi and virulent bigot, is something that I CAN'T respect, and so I will continue to consider Bobby Fischer a Jew because to do so is a way of highlighting the hypocrisy and craziness of his position. He was a Jew, who was afflicted with a terrible form of mental illness.

[Lochdale]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

OK, but he also didn't consider himself to be crazy. He was very sane, from his point of view. But that doesn't mean it was true.



See, if it was just an issue of him converting to a different religion, or declaring himself atheist, I would respect that. Robert Novak, for instance, was born Jewish, but he converted to Catholicism. And even though Robert Novak was an asshole, I can still respect that conversion, because it's not like he started bashing the Jews after he did it. But Fischer went far beyond that, into very different territory. He didn't just declare himself no longer Jewish religiously, he insisted that he was no longer ethnically Jewish, and THAT is insanity, since his mother was Jewish, his biological father is suspected to be Jewish, he grew up in Brooklyn around Jewish intellectuals and bohemians. For him to go from that, to becoming an absolute Nazi and virulent bigot, is something that I CAN'T respect, and so I will continue to consider Bobby Fischer a Jew because to do so is a way of highlighting the hypocrisy and craziness of his position. He was a Jew, who was afflicted with a terrible form of mental illness.

I'm not arguing that his notion that his claiming that he wasn't ethnically Jewish wasn't bat shit crazy. He clearly was ethnically Jewish. However, if he didn't consider himself Jewish then he wasn't a Jew. A historical Jew sure, but not a Jew.

And respect Fischer? Other than his chess playing abilities why would anyone respect him? He was either a mental patient or a complete and utter tosser. Perhaps both.

[Argent Towers]

By "respect" I meant, recognize his rejection of Judaism as legitimate. I do not recognize it as legitimate, the way I would if someone converted formally from Judaism to some other religion. What Bobby Fischer did was an act of insanity, not one of any genuine introspection or religious conviction. I mean, he said that "the Jews are driving the African elephant to extinction because its trunk reminds them of an uncircumcised penis." This is not the rhetoric of even a mentally-sound anti-Semite; it's the rantings of someone who is deranged. I feel sorry for Fischer more than hate him.

[Isamu]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

Fischer, no matter how much he praised Hitler and called for the elimination of the Jews, had Jew blood pumping through his heart - a great deal of Jew blood.

What is this "Jew blood" of which you speak, and where can I get some?

[Wendell Wagner]

CalMeacham writes:

> Is it possible that his weirdness came upon him gradually, and he was pretty
> much "normal" in those early years? I didn't hear anyone decrying his craziness
> until he went into seclusion.

The typical ages of onset of schizophrenia are 20 to 28:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

Fischer won the world championship when he was 29:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer

My impression is that his weirdnesses were relatively mild until after winning the championship. His case sounds typical of many people with schizophrenia. He had some symptoms in his twenties, but he didn't really have major problems until he was in his thirties.

[Lochdale]

Off the topic somewhat but how good of a player was he? In his prime, could he have beaten Kasparov in his prime?

[kunilou]

Originally Posted by Lochdale

Off the topic somewhat but how good of a player was he? In his prime, could he have beaten Kasparov in his prime?

Fischer's last international rating was 2785. Kasparov's final rating was 2812. Edge to Kasparov, but only an edge.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

I assume you mean ethnically, not ethically.

Ethnically Jewish, ethically an ass. Is that better?

Wait...he said WHAT about Jews and elephants? Da'hell?

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

Ethnically Jewish, ethically an ass. Is that better?

Wait...he said WHAT about Jews and elephants? Da'hell?

Oye Ve---It would take a lot of chutzpa to circumcise an elephants trunk (or any other part for that matter)...................

[Markxxx]

Self loathing is quite common, as a gay man it used to be very prevelent among the gay community to hate yourself. I don't see why it should be any different for a Jew to hate Jews, there are lots of gays that hate gay people.

If you look you probably can find a lot of others.

[glee]

Originally Posted by kunilou

Fischer wasn't the only crazy chess champion -- he may not even have been the craziest.

Paul Morphy had a persecution complex, believed his family was poisoning his food and became a recluse.

Wilhelm Steinitz challenged God to chess matches (and claimed to win them), believed he could move the pieces through mental telepathy and was put in mental institutions on two different continents.

Emmanuel Lasker believed that one of his opponents was trying to hypnotize him.

Compared to some of them, Fischer was just cranky.

I do find these wild unsupported references to 'crazy chess champions' depressing.
This is the SDMB and we deal in cites.

Paul Morphy was a incredible chess prodigy but this was in an age when professional chess players were viewed merely as 'disreputable' gamblers. At one time he even had a girl refuse to marry him because he was “a mere chess player.”
He gave up chess at the age of 26, having played brilliant attacking games which were completely against the orthodox style of chess at that time.
He wanted to be a lawyer, but this never happened.
Many years after he gave up chess and failed as a lawyer, he did indeed start to behave weirdly.
There is no evidence that this had anything to do with chess and it is reasonable to assume that his disappointments in life might have caused the problems.

Wilhelm Steinitz did not 'challenge God to chess matches (and claimed to win them)'. This story only surfaced decades after his death by a writer who gave no cite for it.
There is another unsupported story that Steinitz once said "Even God couldn't give me pawn and move odds", which is certainly arrogant but not crazy.
Probably the rumours spread from the second part to the first.
He did suffer a mental breakdown near the end of his life. He died a pauper (as I said earlier, chess at that time was not considered a worthy profession and it was hard to make any money, even for the World Champion.) Again this, plus old age is far more likely to be the root of any mental problems, rather than his chess career.

You claim that Emmanuel Lasker believed in an oppnent hypnotising him. The only reference I can find for this is that when Lasker was due to play Tarrasch for the World Championship Lasker asked to play in separate rooms in case Tarrasch tried to hypnotise him.
I don't know if hypnotism is possible during a chess game, but sitting for hours opposite an opponent who stares at you can be unsettling. Anyway they did play in the same room and Lasker won.
You claim that this makes Lasker 'crazy'.
Lasker held the World Chess Championship for 27 years.
His Ph.D. thesis is regarded as one of the foundations of modern algebra.
Einstein said of Lasker "Emanuel Lasker was undoubtedly one of the most interesting people I came to know in my later years. We must be thankful to those who have penned the story of his life for this and succeeding generations. For there are few men who have had a warm interest in all the great human problems and at the same time kept their personality so uniquely independent."

You finish with the comment that 'Compared to some of them, Fischer was just cranky.'
Who exactly did you have in mind?

Jose Capablanca attended Columbia University and was made an honorary Ambassador to represent Cuba.
An annual Capablanca Memorial tournament has been held in Cuba since 1962.

Boris Spassky (who played Fischer in Iceland for the World Championship) has had both a marvellous chess career and a fine reputation off the board.
Spassky is respected as a universal player, a great storyteller, a bon vivant on occasion, and someone who is rarely afraid to speak his mind on controversial chess issues, and who usually has something important to relate.


Anatoly Karpov collects stamps to relax from his illustrious chess career.

Garry Kasparov speaks several languages, is a fantastic speaker (at my school, he gave both an incredible training day to top chess juniors and later lectured the History Society) and is a contributing Editor to the Wall Street Journal.

Originally Posted by Lochdale

Off the topic somewhat but how good of a player was he? In his prime, could he have beaten Kasparov in his prime?

Originally Posted by kunilou

Fischer's last international rating was 2785. Kasparov's final rating was 2812. Edge to Kasparov, but only an edge.

It is unwise to rely so much on ELO ratings, which show a slight relentless inflation over time.
Fischer was a voracious reader of chess magazines in those 'pre-computer chess database days'. He succesfully took on the Soviet Union's many top Grandmasters. The Soviet Union had poured money into chess, rightly deciding it would bring international prestige. (China is now doing the same.)
Kasparov uses computers to study all his rival's games and to check all his games.
I wouldn't like to separate the two - and if Morphy had access to chess databases, I reckon he'd worry both of them.