Atheists in Church

[Dioptre]

After this hijacked trainwreck of a thread ...

Should atheists participate in religious ceremonies?

If they (heaven forbid!) choose to instigate a religious ceremony such as a Christian marriage ceremony, what are the most inappropriate bible versus to use?

My opinion - telling lies for personal comfort and convenience is immoral. It's okay to stand there, or be there to support others, but not to say the words. Not for disrespect of God or the church, but out of politeness and personal integrity.

As for versus, I'd go for the beatitudes from Mark and Luke. Instead of "This is the word of the Lord, Amen" at the end, I'd ask the reader to say "So did Mark miss some out, or did someone come along later and edit Luke? I think there's something in that for all of us."

[horhay_achoa]

My wife doesn't believe in god, but she still considers her self catholic, and will recite the words and stuff when we go to weddings, etc. It makes no sense to me, but she says it is the "way she was raised". The only thing I participate in is the "peace be with you" hand shakes...I can get behind that.
We did not choose to have religious wedding, though. That seems weird.

[Giles]

I'll expand on my personal experience, which I summarised in that other thread. I'm an atheist, and I have been except for a short time as a teenager when I was baptised and confirmed in the Anglican Church -- I was old enough for it to be adult baptism. My wife, in spite of some doubts and difficulties with the official line, is a Catholic. We married in a Catholic church.

Before the ceremony, I made no secret of the fact that I wasn't a Catholic when we talked to the priest. My wife asked is we needed to go through pre-marriage counselling, and his response was, "Well, we've had this little chat, haven't we?" (My wife was 26 and I was 31 at the time, so we weren't exactly lovestruck teenagers).

So we had the ceremony, but not the nuptial mass, and everyone (including my wife's Catholic relations) were all very happy. However, it's not exactly the situation in that other thread, because the OP in that thread is apparently concealing from some people the fact that his Catholic faith has lapsed to the extent that he now calls himself an atheist. I made no secret about my lack of religious beliefs.

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Dioptre

As for versus, I'd go for the beatitudes from Mark and Luke. Instead of "This is the word of the Lord, Amen" at the end, I'd ask the reader to say "So did Mark miss some out, or did someone come along later and edit Luke? I think there's something in that for all of us."

If you try to read the Beatitudes from Mark, you will be in for a very short reading. The Beatitudes aren't in Mark, they are in Matthew (and Luke).

Regards,
Shodan

[Anaamika]

I will participate in religious services, hell yeah! I even take the blessings and leave money and take the holy food. And one of my dreams is to have a big old Hindu wedding.

I mean, why not? But then, Hinduism doesn't actually require belief in a God.

[DrCube]

Religion often isn't about religion. For a lot of people, it is about community and togetherness. It is a cultural center for whole families and communities. Just because you don't believe in the underlying tenets of that religion doesn't mean you should be barred from participating in the communal aspects -- even if that means you have to lubricate the process by reciting bible passages so that Aunt Ethel doesn't make a scene.

There is still a whole lot of prejudice towards atheists. In some families, coming out as an atheist is harder than coming out as gay. I don't think there is anything wrong with sacrificing a little honesty in order to avoid being de facto disowned and losing your family.

Also, there are plenty of atheists who "believe in religion", meaning they value the literature, the togetherness, the meaning it brings to people's lives. They can take everything as a metaphor while still participating in the religion. It's not my style, but I don't actually see anything wrong with this.

[Lanzy]

My wife and kids know I am an atheist, and you guys, that's about it.

So my wedding was in a church. It made my mother and her family happy so I stood there and said words that had no meaning to me. It has never bothered me in the least FWIW.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Dioptre

Should atheists participate in religious ceremonies?

If they want to. A lot of the words won't mean anything to atheists, so there's no particular reason they shouldn't participate. But there are plenty of reasons to choose not to.

My opinion - telling lies for personal comfort and convenience is immoral.

Who is the atheist lying to here, and for whose comfort and convenience?

[Dinsdale]

An atheist - like anyone else - should do whatever the fuck he/she wants to do, so long as he acquiesces to property owners' requests concerning private property, and accepts whatever legal recourse may result. But I couldn't care less whether he gargles wth the sacramental wine, buggers an altar boy on the altar, and takes a crap on the bible. I doubt most churches would care for such behavor, tho. And I would not personally act in that manner.

[Skammer]

As someone who is quite religious, I'm a little torn.

I wouldn't want someone participating if they were harboring feelings of disdain or mockery toward the ceremony, whether it was obvious or not. God knows what is in their hearts. Better to be honest with your family and politely bow out.

If someone was doing it out of respect for their family or the church, but didn't really believe, it's more of a gray area. I can see the possibility of good coming from that. After all I'd rather have people come to church than not come to church, because if someone is present there is always the chance of a little Grace happening.

I guess the bottom line for me is: if it's a chore for you, don't do it. You're not doing anyone any favors.

[tdn]

Why not participate? The last time I was in church, I was there to honor and pay respects to the dearly departed. I wasn't there to assert my beliefs.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Dioptre

My opinion - telling lies for personal comfort and convenience is immoral. It's okay to stand there, or be there to support others, but not to say the words. Not for disrespect of God or the church, but out of politeness and personal integrity.

Seems to me politeness often requires humouring crazy people, so just play along because kicking up a fuss will just upset them.

[sugar and spice]

I was in complete agreement with Anne Neville in that one. If you're not a professed Catholic then I wouldn't expect you to have any great reverence for the Church, but the couple was also setting themselves up for a rats nest with their families. Getting married in the Catholic Church is an implicit promise to raise your kids Catholic. So now their parents are expecting Catholic grandchildren, and we never got to ask the OP how far he was going to take the baptism, CCD, 1st communion run with his kids. (But if there won't be kids then that solves that problem.)

Many other US Christian denominations I wouldn't say this, but Catholics and Catholics families can be very fussy about how the kids are raised.

Religion often isn't about religion. For a lot of people, it is about community and togetherness. It is a cultural center for whole families and communities. Just because you don't believe in the underlying tenets of that religion doesn't mean you should be barred from participating in the communal aspects -- even if that means you have to lubricate the process by reciting bible passages so that Aunt Ethel doesn't make a scene.

I agree but the thing is that getting married in the Catholic Church is different than just going to midnight mass at Christmas and maybe taking communion, as I've tried to describe above. If you're not raised Catholic (and maybe you were, but a lot of Dopers were not of course) then the unstated implications of a Catholic wedding ceremony may be missed.

[ZPG Zealot]

I know some atheists that take the position that while they do not believe in the religion of the bible, they consider certain portions of it pretty poetry or an interesting story or moral lesson (the good Samaraitan for example) and it is these portions they would use.

[Erdosain]

I'm glad someone finally started this thread!

What people seem to fail to understand is that many people can't just "stand up for their lack of beliefs" without suffering serious and pointless consequences from their families and in-laws.

If everyone accepted atheists, then yes, you should be true to what you believe in. However, we don't live in that world. For me, the question is who is being unreasonable? The atheist who is going on just to get along, or the family who won't accept them?

[dhkendall]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

But I couldn't care less whether he gargles wth the sacramental wine, buggers an altar boy on the altar, and takes a crap on the bible.

Well, the middle one is illegal (providing the altar boy is under the age of consent), so I'd have an issue with the middle one.

And the religious person in me has a bit of an issue with the other two (although I think gargling with the sacremental wine is kind of funny, but I"m not Catholic), because basically said athiest is just giving a big "fuck you" to theists, I'm sure even atheists think being a dick isn't cool. As long as you aren't a dick to me or what I believe, however illogical it may seem, and I'm the same with you, we'll get along fine.

Why can't everyone just live by that? World'd be a better place ...

(Yes I know Disndale was deliberately coming up with extremes, not examples.)

[kevlaw]

About 20 years ago, my sister (J) asked me and my other sister (C) - both atheists - to be godparents to our nephews. It made me extremely uncomfortable but not as uncomfortable as saying "no" to my big sister J.

After the ceremony - with lots of promising to serve God and renouncing the devil - C leaned in to me and whispered "now we are definitely going to hell".

It definitely felt immoral to me and I vowed to never be put in that situation again. I made it clear to everyone in my family and wife's family that I would be delighted to come to church but don't make me take oaths or pray or otherwise perjure myself.

More recently, I converted to ceremonial deism ("the only religion blessed by the supreme court") which has released me from my *vow. Ceremonial Deists deem any religious statement to be merely ritual and are thus free to enjoy the ceremony and community of religious practice without any of that supernatural stuff. It's the best of both worlds! Pascal would be proud!

I actually do enjoy going to church and often go on my own. I enjoy the ceremony and the tradition and feel connected to something ancient and profound (but not necessarily true).

* j/k I still avoid situations where I might have to swear an oath or profess some declaration of belief that conflicts with what I actually believe. IOW I agree with the OP that it is immoral to make false declarations but I feel perfectly entitled to participate in the ceremonial aspects. My religious friends and family seem to appreciate it even though they know that I am an atheist.

[Bill Door]

Why shouldn't atheists participate in church? I've been in plenty of discussions about imaginary beings. You'd have to be some kind of a dick to point out to a trekkie that both Kirk and Picard are fictional, and neither one can beat the other. Do you run up to children and spill the beans about Santa Claus?

In my opinion, 90% or more of the people who go to church don't believe in god any more than I do. They're pretending for the sake of other people, like the parents who put money from the tooth fairy beneath a pillow, and what's the harm in that?

[panache45]

Originally Posted by DrCube

In some families, coming out as an atheist is harder than coming out as gay.

From my own personal experience, this is very true. Both my own family and that of my partner took a lot longer to accept our atheism. And after 22 years, there are still a few on both sides who think our atheism is "temporary."

[Gyrate]

As an agnostic who has spent a lot of time in church for various reasons (and who just had his daughter baptized, for the sake of the in-laws), I've got no problem with attending, singing along with the hymns nor even getting blessed, but I won't profess a faith I don't hold nor will I take Communion.

Most of the pastors (priests, chaplains, etc) haven't had a problem with this, largely because it demonstrates a certain respect for their beliefs even though I don't hold them myself, and the ones who have been bothered by it have generally been jerks anyway.

[kevlaw]

Originally Posted by sugar and spice

I agree but the thing is that getting married in the Catholic Church is different

Indeed.

My wife is catholic and I have resisted a catholic wedding for this reason even though my mother-in-laws nags me every time she sees me (it was 17 years ago! Let if go already!).

Both my kids were baptised catholic though. I checked in advance with The Bish that I wouldn't have to say anything wicked. Neither of them have ever received Holy Communion though because they don't want to. I'd support them if they did.

[This_Just_In...]

Originally Posted by Dioptre

Should atheists participate in religious ceremonies?

My opinion - telling lies for personal comfort and convenience is immoral. It's okay to stand there, or be there to support others, but not to say the words. Not for disrespect of God or the church, but out of politeness and personal integrity.

A church is a public institution. That means anyone can go. The main thing that drove me away from religion is the propensity of religious people to try and exclude all others who do not believe exactly whatever particular crap they do. If there was a Jesus, would he be so eager to exclude non-believers from hearing his message or participating in his songs, etc.?

If I enter a church for a wedding/funeral or to humour my relatives - it is my full right to issue utterances even if they are meaningless to myself.
A person can do the same thing all the time at work - agreeing with bosses, being nice to undeserving customers.

[faithfool]

I'm largely in agreement with Skammer. As long as the participant is respectful, I can't imagine having a problem with it even if it's just done to appease loved ones. If you think it's the most heinous thing you'll ever do, skip it and deal with whatever consequences may arise. At least that's what I did (to a lesser degree) as an agnostic, which my family thought was one step into hellfire.

[Anaamika]

Plus if you don't go, even if your family knows you're atheist, then in their eyes you are being the dick because you can't just go along to get along.

[Lobohan]

I'm an atheist and my wife's grandfather's funeral was a full-on Catholic deal with a lot of praying and sitting and standing. I didn't stand in line to get the Jesus-Cracker and during the prayers I stood there quietly and looked around. And you know, when everyone's head was down I wasn't the only one with eyes open scanning the crowd.

More non-believers in church than you might think.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by sugar and spice

Getting married in the Catholic Church is an implicit promise to raise your kids Catholic.

Not that I would do this myself, but I am sure priests realize that that's just lipservice. Same as "I won't have sex for fun or outside of marriage," "I won't support pro-choice candidates," and "I'll accept all of the Vatican's views."

[Dinsdale]

There is a HUGE difference between politely participating in or witnessing religious ceremonies, and requesting the church's assistance in receiving one of its most holy sacraments. And those services can get long - it is nice that they afford a nice little snack near the end!

The atheist seeking to get married in a catholic church is being dishonest to both the church and the family members who think something is happening other than what the OP knows is happening. But if he's good with that, heck, knock yourself out!

We got married in a Lutheran church - in part - to please our families (mine RC, hers L). Of course, down the line we got to hear from my mom how it wasn't a "real" marriage. Then deal with her requests that our kids get baptized, etc. So if the OP chooses to keep on with the sham for years to come, fine. In my personal experience, now 25 years later, my wife and I would have preferred to have been honest and aboveboard as to what is important to us on what was one of the most significant events in our lives, than in participating in some sham that we actively did not believe in, just in the hopes that it would make some other family members happy.

And each person can certainly decide for themself whether they are being more respectful of their loved ones by being honest, or by pretending to believe in and something their family considers extremely sacred.

[Procrustus]

I don't think going though a Catholic wedding ceremony is necessarily immoral. I was much more troubled by the motivation for doing it. "Getting along" with the inlaws and keeping the wife happy is going to blow up on is face one day. A marriage that begins by going through meaningless motions to make others happy is, imo, headed for some trouble. I'm a bit of an expert on this, as I embark on my third marriage. As others have stated, it's not going to end with the wedding. I can see it now, "we have to have Thanksgivings at my parents house, they're expecting us." "We can't move to St.Louis, I'd be too far from my mother."

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

There is a HUGE difference between politely participating in or witnessing religious ceremonies, and requesting the church's assistance in receiving one of its most holy sacraments.

There is? It sounds like asking if the number of angels dancing of the heads of pins is reduced if they happen to be wearing golf shoes.



It is, by the way. Golf cleats are dangerous.

[Lanzy]

responded to wrong person.

[Lanzy]

Originally Posted by Procrustus

I don't think going though a Catholic wedding ceremony is necessarily immoral. I was much more troubled by the motivation for doing it. "Getting along" with the inlaws and keeping the wife happy is going to blow up on is face one day. A marriage that begins by going through meaningless motions to make others happy is, imo, headed for some trouble. I'm a bit of an expert on this, as I embark on my third marriage. As others have stated, it's not going to end with the wedding. I can see it now, "we have to have Thanksgivings at my parents house, they're expecting us." "We can't move to St.Louis, I'd be too far from my mother."

You could be right, after 40 years together it could go bad any minute now.

[Anduril]

I actually was choirmaster for a Catholic parish for some time. I totally enjoy choral music and from where I am, you can really only do choral music within the church setting. However, I did not hide the fact that I was an atheist. Maybe the fact that we were actually a very good choir (winning competitions and such) made them ignore my lack of belief.

[Giles]

Originally Posted by Lanzy

You could be right, after 40 years together it could go bad any minute now.

My marriage has only lasted 33 years. Who knows when my wife will ask for an annulment, now that the children have all grown up.

[Ispolkom]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

The atheist seeking to get married in a catholic church is being dishonest to both the church and the family members who think something is happening other than what the OP knows is happening. But if he's good with that, heck, knock yourself out!

This wasn't my experience, getting married in a Catholic church in the very conservative Arlington, Va. diocese 17 years ago. My wife is a devout Catholic, while I'm not religious, and have never been baptized. I was up-front about the fact that I wasn't a believer, and wasn't baptized, and it caused surprisingly few problems. There were a few more forms to fill out, and we had to get permission from the bishop (the no baptism thing seemed more important than any beliefs I had), but everything was on the level, and we weren't dishonest to anyone.

We didn't have a wedding mass (what were they going to do, put a tarp over me during communion?), and part of the wedding ceremony was me agreeing aloud to several requirements (not interfering with my wife's religious practice, raising any children Catholic, I don't remember what else), but it was a real Catholic wedding (though perhaps not a sacramental wedding). We had to hold our reception at a Serbian Orthodox church hall, though, since my wife's parish hall was dry.

She's still devout, I'm still godless, and it's worked out pretty well.

I did draw the line at being a godfather to my nephew. That would have been lying.

[GargoyleWB]

Originally Posted by Lanzy

So my wedding was in a church. It made my mother and her family happy so I stood there and said words that had no meaning to me. It has never bothered me in the least FWIW.

I'm an atheist, and also made some token wedding concessions so that some obligatory sermonizing by the officiant was allowed so our devout easily-confused elderly grandparents would believe that it was "real". To those that know me or care to ask, it's clear that I'm not Christian. To those who don't know me enough to care, they can assume whatever they want and it makes no difference to me.

[kevlaw]

Originally Posted by Ispolkom

I did draw the line at being a godfather to my nephew. That would have been lying.

In my defense, I was very young and hadn't thought things through before that event. But really - I don't even want to defend myself. I did a bad thing. If atheists had confession, I would totally confess this.

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by Ispolkom

I was up-front about the fact that I wasn't a believer, and wasn't baptized, and it caused surprisingly few problems. There were a few more forms to fill out, ...

That is quite different from the guy in the linked thread. Neither he nor his wife are devout believers, yet they have chosen not to acknowledge as much to either the church or their families.

I did draw the line at being a godfather to my nephew. That would have been lying.

I was surprised when my sister asked me to be godparent to one of her kids. Still think it an odd choice on her part.

But she knew I did not believe, and as I do not respect the church I had no problem saying whatever BS was involved in the ceremony, whether or not that would be "lying" to the church.

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

There is? It sounds like asking if the number of angels dancing of the heads of pins is reduced if they happen to be wearing golf shoes.

So, you are invited to a Catholic wedding/funeral/baptism/first communion/confirmation/whatever. Are you unable to see any distinction between attending, standing or sitting or kneeling as they do (or even just remaining seated) - as opposed to lining up to actively participate in the holy sacrament of communion?

As a nonbeliever, it might seem like no big deal. But to many believers, it is only as big as the difference between eternity in heaven or hell.

[muldoonthief]

Originally Posted by Ispolkom

I did draw the line at being a godfather to my nephew. That would have been lying.

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

I was surprised when my sister asked me to be godparent to one of her kids. Still think it an odd choice on her part.

FWIW, the Catholic Church only requires one godparent to be a Catholic in (reasonably) good standing. I've been a godfather twice, and both times the godmother was a heathen or a heretic.

[Marienee]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

There is a HUGE difference between politely participating in or witnessing religious ceremonies, and requesting the church's assistance in receiving one of its most holy sacraments. .

Whether or not he believes in god, whether or not his wife believes in god, they will have a sacramental marriage in the RC. There is no requirement of belief to be a member of the RC or to have a sacramental marriage in the RC. This is one of the fundamental differences between the RC and the protestant faiths generally (though some stuck with that and some did not) and is poorly understood.

They are both baptized RC, at least one of them was confirmed RC, and that's it. People who are baptized and/or confirmed in the RC are Catholics, irrespective of any personal beliefs they might have at any given time, because Catholic sacramental theology holds that baptism leaves an indelible character, regardless of any future loss of faith. Accordingly, they could not for example get an annulment later on that ground.

Hans Kung is still a priest after all, despite the current Pope's certain and personal knowledge of the depth and extent of his....travels in the theological borderlands.

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by Marienee

Whether or not he believes in god, whether or not his wife believes in god, they will have a sacramental marriage in the RC. There is no requirement of belief to be a member of the RC or to have a sacramental marriage in the RC. This is one of the fundamental differences between the RC and the protestant faiths generally (though some stuck with that and some did not) and is poorly understood.

Excellent clarification of a point I had forgotten. Thank you. I forget that I am still a member of the church despite my best efforts to the contrary these past several decades!

[Marienee]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

Excellent clarification of a point I had forgotten. Thank you. I forget that I am still a member of the church despite my best efforts to the contrary these past several decades!

Yeah, well, wait till the protestants remember that His Holiness considers them to be members of the RC despite their best efforts these past several centuries. back atcha.

[Novelty Bobble]

I replied to the other thread, so just to repeat and clarify.

My wife and I are both atheist. We got married in church, had both our children baptised and have been godparents.

In all cases, everyone knows that we are atheist, but then, this being the UK pretty much all our family and acquaintances are as well. So no big deal.

We use the church (C of E) because it, and the ceremony are aesthetically pleasing.
That's it really, When the vicar starts talking about God (which they are apt to do don't you know) then we just mentally filter the words and sift out the sentiment (which we happen to share).

I couldn't care less about the church's feeling towards this. They are free to screen me as much as they like. Were they to ask me flat out if I believe in god I'd say no. Were they then to ban me from taking any part I wouldn't complain.
Of course they never do.

[Dinsdale]

Hope folk will forgive this hijack on a matter of utmost importance to me. So I was baptized as an infant, and went through communion and confirmation at my parents instruction while in grade school. So now that I reject the RC God, am I heading to hell for eternity unless I repent?

And what would have been the outcome had I been born a heathen in darkest Africa and never exposed to the true Word? Purgatory? Is limbo still official policy? Or will I see him in hell?

If that fucker gets to hang out in purgatory or limbo while I'm roasting away down in hell, all I can say is "Thanks a lot, ma!"

[Dung Beetle]

About once a year I go to church with my Grandma. She knows I’m an atheist but it “makes her happy”. So, last time I went, they had communion and the preacher made a big deal about how you were buying a one-way ticket to hell if you didn’t really believe in Jesus when you gobbled your cracker and grape juice. Grandma was too far away for me to lean over and ask what she wanted me to do…take that one way ticket to hell, or embarrass her in front of all her friends?
I decided to go ahead with communion. If she really cared, she could lunge across the pew and slap the cracker out of my hand. But no…she just sat there smiling and swaying from side to side, obviously not paying the least bit of attention to anything being said. No wonder she’s so damn happy.

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by Dung Beetle

I decided to go ahead with communion.

See you in hell, baby!

[Dung Beetle]

Oh, good. I would hate it if I didn’t know anyone.

[Giles]

Originally Posted by Dung Beetle

Oh, good. I would hate it if I didn’t know anyone.

If some of those Christians are to be believed, all the best people are going to hell.

[Marienee]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

Hope folk will forgive this hijack on a matter of utmost importance to me. So I was baptized as an infant, and went through communion and confirmation at my parents instruction while in grade school. So now that I reject the RC God, am I heading to hell for eternity unless I repent?

And what would have been the outcome had I been born a heathen in darkest Africa and never exposed to the true Word? Purgatory? Is limbo still official policy? Or will I see him in hell?

If that fucker gets to hang out in purgatory or limbo while I'm roasting away down in hell, all I can say is "Thanks a lot, ma!"

Well, according to the current catechism, it is possible to commit a mortal sin, which unconfessed and unabsolved will send you straight to hell, and certainly apostacy counts as one of those. However, the same catechism says that there is no limit to the mercy of god, and although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offence, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Of course, the nature of hell is subject to some debate, current thinking is that hell is the absence of god and since you are living in that state now (having cut yourself off from grace) you may not notice.

The doctrine involving Limbo has been eliminated. Purgatory is a process of final purification of all who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified. The current catechism refers to it as a state of being. The notion of its being a place is not doctrinal so some folks think of it that way and some do not.

Your innocent nonbeliever cannot be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him if he seeks god sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men. This divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church.

[kevlaw]

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble

Were they then to ban me from taking any part I wouldn't complain.

This is a big consideration for me too. The Catholic Church is happy to have me attend their services and I am happy to be there.

The Boy Scouts, on the other hand, have made it clear that my kind is not welcome there so I refuse to have anything to do with them. Everyone is a winner!