I often hear it said that men are often turned off by women that are intelligent, successful, educated or independent. I’d like to know if there are any studies that indicate that men are actually often intimidated out of dating such women. Are there?
Also, while I’m at it: is there any evidence that some women are so hot that men are less likely to ask them out because they assume that they don’t deserve them? I’ve been skeptical of this for a long time: all of the really hot women that I know are pursued all of the time.
Good questions, I’m really curious too. Anecdotally, the first one usually seems to be highly exaggerated in my experience – or at least the intelligent successful and drop-dead-gorgeous women I know always seem to have plenty of suitors who always call back (even if the girl isn’t interested); whereas the intelligent successful but frankly less-attractive in some other way (either in looks or personality) women I know are the ones who say that excuse a lot.
There probably is some truth that a lot of men feel uncomfortable if their girlfriend/wife makes more money than them; but I would contend that’s a different issue. And anyway, even the income issue gets overlooked if the woman is desirable enough. Very few men would say no if a $5 million a year supermodel offered to date them, for instance.
As for the second question – it’s certainly true that super hot women are pursued all the time. It’s also certainly true that a lot of men don’t bother to approach those girls cause they know they have virtually zero chance (it’s not even irrational fear; the guy may be making a realistic estimate of his odds based on his knowledge of what he has to offer in looks, personality, height, income, etc). But I suspect the first factor more than offsets the second. If 90% of the men in a bar want to approach a girl but only 10% of the men get the courage to do so, then the girl still gets far more attention than her plain-jane friend, yet 80% of the men go home thinking the girl was so hot that nobody talked to her (except ‘those bad boy jerks that women always like’).
And as for the first question – even if it is hard for successful, intelligent, educated women to meet men, do you think it’s any easier for UN-successful, UN-intelligent, UN-educated women?
Unless you have a winning personality or great looks or something, then dating is hard for everyone, so we all look for explanations of why we can’t get a second date. Sadly, for some people, the answer is something like “you’re kindof boring”, but it’s much nicer for us to believe something kinder like “he was just intimated by my success”.
The un-PC truth is that a lot of men want young-and-beautiful women, and by the time a woman is successful, she’s usually a bit older. This may explain the belief that men would rather date an un-established 23 year old student than a successful 33 year old executive/lawyer – I wonder if the whole thing really comes down just to age? (And by proxy, looks)?
I know you’re only looking for studies, but I tend to be attracted to women that are less intelligent, educated and successful than I am. It isn’t a gender issue, though. If I were gay I’d likely feel the same way about potential male mates.
I’ve never been intimidated by an attractive woman because I didn’t think I deserved her. I have been intimidated by an attractive woman because I assume she gets hit on all the time and don’t really feel I can compete with a lot of the studs who give her attention.
I suspect that the answer to my first question has a lot to do with appearance. The fact of the matter is that many older women do not understand the difference between looking good for your age and just looking good. A woman in the 90th percentile of attractiveness at age 40 is not as attractive as the average college-aged woman. Women do get less attractive as they age, and the only exceptions are temporary boosts in attractiveness because of weight loss or significant cosmetic effort. Barring something like that, women just get less attractive as they age, end of story.
As for the second question, I agree with doubled that many men who assume that they don’t deserve really hot women probably make the decision rationally. Lots of people have the romantic view that dating is about “fit”, but really, dating is as much a marketplace as anything else. Most people agree on who is more attractive than who, who is more successful than who, and so forth. If I assume that the hottest chick in the room is out of my league, I’m probably right. She can do better, and probably will. It’s not fatalism, it’s just rationality. I’m not depressed or anything.
Let’s say there was an ugly, stupid and humorless girl that for some reason I was interested in. Wave a magic wand and now a dozen guys are hitting on her every day. Do I suddenly no longer deserve this chick? Is she suddenly better than I am?
I don’t think that a beautiful woman is better than I am and I certainly don’t think that I don’t deserve her. But every day she’s likely hit on by ten guys and my own personal appeal is likely to be impossible to spot amidst that.
You can be a master wildsman but if you’re hunting the same animal as a dozen other guys your chances go to hell.
Saying “I don’t deserve her” implies an issue with self-esteem. As a narcissist, I know I’m God’s gift to women.
Actually intelligent, well read women are a big turn on for me.
As to really hot women, I’ve successfully asked out several in the past though I’m very plain looking myself.
I think part of the reason they accepted was that many men don’t ask them out for fear of rejection, and also they’re more interested in a mans personality then his looks.
Also I was never in awe of them.
Strangely enough I’ve always had more problems with right munters, they seem to think that you’re hitting on them when you’re merely being polite, and act really offended by your alleged flirting with them.
Whether this is all a show to convince bystanders that they really are attractive to men or they are really bad at reading non verbal communication in others I don’t know.
I dispute this. Not that it’s something that can ever be logically determined.
My memory of college is that it was not the Playboy Mansion. There were hotties, average girls, and homely girls in perfect bell-curve proportions. I look around today and see the same proportions in the 35-to-50 set.
The women I’m the most interested in are generally “in my league” with regards to looks, education and income. Yes, I do find myself intimidated by women that may be too educated and wealthy, because I think “Why would she be interested in an average-looking middle-class urban planner? She’s probably holding out for a doctor or lawyer.” I found that dating extremely successful women can be expensive; they have much higher expectations when it comes to dining, entertainment and vacations. I can’t afford Manhattan-style dates every week.
As for the comments about age, I try to stick with those in my age group; generally mid-to-late 30s to early-to-mid 40s. Yes, younger women can be more attractive, but again I pursue them, I would seem kind of creepy. Odds-wise, it’s better for me to put my effort where the chances are best. However, I’m turned off by a couple of things by women in my age group; those that have sacrificed their identity and personality when they had children and now are only a “mommy” rather than a unique individual who happens to have children, and those who just don’t even try anymore and succumbed to frumpiness.
I’ve read that it’s the women’s version of the classic men’s complaint “beautiful women only want jerks, not nice guys like me.” To which the response is “if you’re such a ‘nice guy,’ why don’t you go after less attractive women?” So the same response is valid for successful, educated women. And “boring losers don’t engage my mind” is just as invalid a counter-response as “ugly chicks don’t make my dick hard.”
Playing with the income-level filter on Plenty-of-Fish, I’ve noticed a lot of the higher-income women’s profiles warn off the boring losers with “I like the finer things in life, so you better be able to keep up,” or “Fly to Paris for Lunch? No problem!” So I guess most men are indeed intimidated by women whose main message is “fuck off.”
(Ah, internet dating, where anyone can feel so good by feeling too good for anyone else.)
But that’s just this boring losers’ confirmation bias. Unlike the “nice guy” complex, the “successful, educated woman who intimidates fragile male egos” is quantifiable. I hope somone posts-in with statistics showing any differences in the percentage of single women in different income levels.
IME from watching family and friends…guys actually do like women who make money and are successful. The problem seems to be that women, more than men, have trouble with it.
When a woman is successful, she feels more confident and, well, successful. She then wants a successful guy. The problem is that men do not value how successful/how much money women make nearly as much as women do. So, while a guy likes a successful woman, he is not willing to ‘up the purchase price’ so to speak. So, she needs to compete on relatively even terms with less than successful women.
This discontinuity with her perception of her worth on the dating market with her actual worth leads her to spurn advances from ‘less worthy’ guys and also leads her to be spurned from guys she thinks she is the equivalent worth of because she is not really in their league. She sees these guys then pursuing less than successful women and so jumps to the conclusion they were intimidated by her success.
In addition, men don’t value confidence as much as women do…and so if the woman is acting confident and different from most women, this may be a turnoff. Most men like nuturing, warm, traditionally female-acting women. If that confidence she has replaces this* then she is worth even less in the eyes of men and makes her discontinuity worse.
So, in both cases of successful women and nice-guy men, we have a group that thinks they should be worth more in the dating market then they are…and so come up with an ego-saving excuse rather than face facts.
I have known several very successful women. VERY successful. 2 of them were also very warm, friendly and feminine. They had no problem attracting guys.
This as well. On match.com (and, I presume, other dating sites), there is an option to list your income range, and the income range of a desired match. Only a minority of women include ranges for a match that was lower than the range they were in. For example, among women who claimed salaries in the $75,000-$100,000 range, only a minority would include the lower $35,000-$50,000 and $50,000-$75,000 ranges for their desired match. Phrases like “I like the finer things in life”, descriptions of travel to every continent, photos in front of what is presumably their 3,000-plus square foot house, and the like can be intimidating for some middle class Joes, who might think “she’s really high-maintenance”.
My family is reputed (correctly) to run to “big men and strong women”. My mother, grandmother, sisters, cousins, and aunts are all strong, intelligent, competent, and successful women. I have never been intimidated by strong women, and, indeed, prefer their company.
Thirded (but sorry no cite so still not directly answering OP)
Certainly among my girl-friends they only desire men that are at least at their social status (not money per se).
It’s funny; I work in a hospital at the moment. While many of the nurses may go ga-ga for a first year doctor, the doctors all seem to talk about the consultants / surgeons etc and so on.
As for the other point (hot girls not getting chatted up), my anecdotal opinion again is that it does happen, but it’s still overstated.
Super hot, tall women can get passed by IME.
However, generally the “I’m hot, why don’t men hit on me” phenomenon is more likely to do with:
Body language
Dress (more sleazy doesn’t equal more friendly to most guys: the opposite is expected)
The body language / dress of the people you’re with
Yeah, I know what that’s like. I’m a struggling lower-middle-class type who simply can’t afford to treat my dates to a weekend at the Ritz or a flight to some far country, much as I’d like to.
On the other hand, when searching for dates on sites like LavaLife, I never check the ‘desired salary range’ box. It’s not that important to me; salary magnitude is trumped by cultural differences.
Liking the “finer things” is fine, no matter how one defines them. Being confined by them is another matter.
Edit: and what Brother Cadfael said. I like strong, confident women.
