Should Children Believe In Fairy Tales?

[Severian]

Hmm, I’ll start this here in IMHO, but based on the debate I just endured with my ex-wife I guess it could end up in GD. We’ll see. Mods may move it as they see fit, obviously.

My daughter is nearly six years old. Her mother and I have been divorced for over three years. When we were married we disagreed about fostering a belief in Santa Claus, but I acquiesced and since the divorce have remained neutral with regards to Ol’ St. Nick.

However, throughout my daughter’s life I’ve presented the fairy tales we read and the movies we watch as make-believe, and I’ve until now had no indication her mother was doing it differently. It's now come to light that her mother has been instilling and fostering a belief in the Disney princesses as real. I think this is ridiculous. I can begrudgingly look the other way on Santa Claus based on his status as a cultural tradition, but the Disney princesses?

Am I overreacting? Or is putting Cinderella and Ariel and Belle and Sleeping Beauty (etc. etc.) in the same class as Santa Claus just setting the kid up for problems down the road?

[RandMcnally]

I don't think there'll be a problem with it. As she grows older she's come to realize the fantasy on her own.

[Markxxx]

It depends on the level of reality. Even a six year old knows what's real, but it's also fun to pretend things are real, even when you know they aren't.

It's when you lose the separation that you have trouble. Cinderella isn't real, but there's no reason why her story couldn't be real. Though the "rescue" part of traditional fairy tales I'm not happy with.

Fairy tales are good and kids need to hear stories. It helps them develop imagination. The world is pretty tough for them and they need to know when they get sad or in a place where they can't cope, they can close their eyes and lose themselves in make believe world.

For instance, when I was little I had a dog. And when my mum would scold me, I'd take the dog and go outside in the backyard and explain to him exactly why my mother was so unfair to me and how unreasonable she was. And the dog always agreed with me that my mother clearly was wrong and I was the good one.

Of course I knew that wasn't real, but it was nice to believe it anyway.

And I think you need to find out the level of belief. It's like going to a fun house as an adult. You know it's fake, but it's more fun to believe.

[Severian]

The topic came up because my daughter was asking me questions about whether the princesses were real. I was originally perplexed by the question because I'd believed she'd had this down a year ago, though now I know why she still has questions. I answered honestly, telling her that there are real princesses (Remember the pictures of the royal wedding?), but that the stories and princesses in the movies we watch are make-believe and pretend. But it sure is fun to pretend, isn't it? She agreed and we went on.

I've since found out that when she told her mother that I said the princesses were pretend, her mother "repaired the damage" by telling her that she must have misunderstood me. She then explained that, yes, the cartoons are just cartoons, but that the real live Cinderella and all the other Disney princesses live in Disney World.

I am all for supporting an active imagination, I had a doozy myself, but getting in the way of the child figuring out what's real and what's not seems very wrong to me.

[YaraMateo]

At this age, no. There's a certain age where being too logic with kids is kind of wasting time. There's certain concepts they can't grasp. Besides, I think it's worse for you to be saying one thing and mom another. I think you two need to get on the same page. I think that's the bigger issue at the moment.

[Indygrrl]

Maybe you could be the one to read her stories where girls are adventurous and independent, as a sort of foil for all of the Disney princess stuff. There's nothing wrong with Disney, but I think young girls can really benefit from the sort of story where they can imagine themselves doing amazing things rather than sitting around looking pretty and waiting for a prince.

If you introduce different kinds of stories it could open up discussion about the kind of fun and exciting things that are real and the kind of things that are a fantasy. I think what her mother is doing is wrong, but it doesn't sound like she's going to give up telling your daughter the stuff is real.

It makes no sense to me. After all, we do want to give our children the tools they need to get through life. Sending a child into kindergarten or first grade with a head full of made up fantasy might not be the most effective way to do that.

[needscoffee]

I don't know if it's setting her up for problems down the road, but it's surely bizarre. I just asked my 16-year-old daughter if she's ever heard of anything like that, and she said, "No, who the hell does that??"

[Imago]

Your ex doesn't sound like she is going to back down. I definitely think the extent to which it's being taken is unhealthy- especially the "real live Disney princesses in Disney World" part- but perhaps the suggestion above mine about making an effort to provide a good range of contrasting stories is best, as it will be harder for your co-parent to "undo".

My sole caution: many of the stories masquerading as showing an "adventurous, independent" woman derail themselves off that track or carry contrary implications the authors either snuck in or overlooked. I'm not saying the plucky heroine can't fall in love with a plucky hero, but there's a line to be drawn somewhere.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Markxxx

Cinderella isn't real, but there's no reason why her story couldn't be real.

With an attitude like that, you're just begging to get scammed by some car saleswoman dressed as a Fairy Godmother trying to sell you pumpkins.

[Martiju]

Originally Posted by Imago

Your ex doesn't sound like she is going to back down. I definitely think the extent to which it's being taken is unhealthy- especially the "real live Disney princesses in Disney World" part-

On the other hand, it's a great opening for telling the daughter that ex-wife will surely want to take her to meet the princesses very soon...! That might induce a sense of realism.

[Anaamika]

Some great man said that children don't need fairy tales for the dragon, they need it for Saint George to slay it. I think it's a little weird, but as others have said, read her some other stories. Mulan's story is better - she still gets a handsome prince, but she did not just sit at home seeking one, but went out to save her father's honor and ended up saving all of Imperial China!

[constanze]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Some great man said that children don't need fairy tales for the dragon, they need it for Saint George to slay it. I think it's a little weird, but as others have said, read her some other stories.

That was renowned child psychologist Bruno Bettelheim, who said (paraphrased): Fairy tales don't tell kids that monsters exist; kids know that monsters exist already; fairy tales tell kids that monsters can be killed.

I second the exposure to other stories - the original Mulan, not the Disney version; different varieties of Cinderella (there's a wonderful live-action movie from Czech called "Three hazelnuts for Cinderella" that shows a stronger and independent Cinderella than Disney - though I don't know if it has been translated into English); the original Pocahontas story (the Native Americans have a lot of criticism about the way Disney treats it!), translations of Grimm's fairy tales to compare with Mother Goose; Native American and Chinese fairy tales for different traditions of stories...
Also anime: She-Ra at least does something besides waiting for Prince Charming; Shrek is of course wonderful deconstruction of Disney!

And this can lead to good discussions also - they don't have to be quite logical, or fully sink in, just do them regularly:
What if I (= the daughter) were a princess for one day, one week, what would I do? Eat ice-cream all day, ride a pony, ... let her imagination run wild with a bit of daydreaming (as long as it's not too much, it's not a problem)

How do real princesses today live? (As antidote), looking not only at the UK royal family, but also the Scandinavian monarchies, and some smaller ones in Asia. If she's a bit older, you could point out the pressure on the Japanese family to produce boy heirs despite biology and despite "descending" from a female sungodess.

[Sigmagirl]

Originally Posted by Imago

My sole caution: many of the stories masquerading as showing an "adventurous, independent" woman derail themselves off that track or carry contrary implications the authors either snuck in or overlooked. I'm not saying the plucky heroine can't fall in love with a plucky hero, but there's a line to be drawn somewhere.

What about non-fiction? There are children's books written about real-life women and girls who did great things. Here's one about Harriet Tubman for ages 4-8; this one's for older readers but you could read it to her, and it has great pictures. About courageous Kate Shelley. Here's one about Clara Barton for ages 4-8. Plucky heroines all. How can your ex object?

[stpauler]

Maybe it's time to explain the role of mothers in Disney to your ex-wife.

The heroes and heroines of most Disney movies come from unstable family backgrounds;[1] most are either orphaned or have no mothers.[2] Few, if any, have only single mothers. In other instances, mothers are presented as "bad surrogates" eventually "punished for their misdeeds"

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Severian

I've since found out that when she told her mother that I said the princesses were pretend, her mother "repaired the damage" by telling her that she must have misunderstood me. She then explained that, yes, the cartoons are just cartoons, but that the real live Cinderella and all the other Disney princesses live in Disney World.

They do live in Disney World. I once had my picture taken with Belle from Beauty and the Beast, my favorite, and I've met Cinderella and many of the other princesses.

[muldoonthief]

Originally Posted by Severian

The topic came up because my daughter was asking me questions about whether the princesses were real. I was originally perplexed by the question because I'd believed she'd had this down a year ago, though now I know why she still has questions. I answered honestly, telling her that there are real princesses (Remember the pictures of the royal wedding?), but that the stories and princesses in the movies we watch are make-believe and pretend. But it sure is fun to pretend, isn't it? She agreed and we went on.

I've since found out that when she told her mother that I said the princesses were pretend, her mother "repaired the damage" by telling her that she must have misunderstood me. She then explained that, yes, the cartoons are just cartoons, but that the real live Cinderella and all the other Disney princesses live in Disney World.

I am all for supporting an active imagination, I had a doozy myself, but getting in the way of the child figuring out what's real and what's not seems very wrong to me.

Yeah, I'd say you handled it perfectly, and your ex is a nut, or (to be charitable) terrified that your daugher is growing up too fast or something. Kids can know they're engaging in make believe, but still enjoy the hell out of themselves. All my daughters love interacting with the characters at StoryLand (basically an amusement park geared towards kids 9 & under), even though the older two are completely aware they're just park workers in costumes.

[Baracus]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

They do live in Disney World. I once had my picture taken with Belle from Beauty and the Beast, my favorite, and I've met Cinderella and many of the other princesses.

My daughter has decided that when we go to Disneyworld next week, we are only meeting people dressed up as the princesses, Mickey Mouse, etc. The real ones live in Disneyland! I think she is pretty smart for a five year-old but sometimes she makes me go Like when she saw a clip of the Lion King show at Disneyworld and thought they had a real talking lion.

Personally I wouldn't get too worked up about a six year old thinking the princesses are real, although I think it is kind of odd that mom is actively promoting it, rather than just indulging some harmless fantasies.

[Severian]

Great thoughts all, thanks. I definitely do try to provide some stories that don't follow the stereotypical Disney path. The idea to read some alternative versions of the Cinderella story is a great one. Disney certainly didn't come up with the tale.

I guess to clarify my point, I have zero problem with a kid believing in fairy tales in their unique and childish ways. But when one is beginning to grasp the boundries and differences between real life and fantasy it seems really counterproductive to create roadblocks in that path.

Originally Posted by YaraMateo

Besides, I think it's worse for you to be saying one thing and mom another. I think you two need to get on the same page. I think that's the bigger issue at the moment.

Yeah, she won't budge, and since I refuse to actively redirect my daughter's natural progression towards figuring this stuff out this is going to end up being another Santa Claus - Any questions I get from my daughter are replied to with a question of my own: "I don't know Honey, that's a great question. What do you think?"

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

They do live in Disney World. I once had my picture taken with Belle from Beauty and the Beast, my favorite, and I've met Cinderella and many of the other princesses.

So do the Three Little Pigs, the Big Bad Wolf, and C-3P0 and R2-D2, but when I asked the ex if we should be fostering belief in those characters I was told that was simply foolish.

Originally Posted by muldoonthief

Yeah, I'd say you handled it perfectly, and your ex is a nut, or (to be charitable) terrified that your daugher is growing up too fast or something.

Heh, she did use that as one of her points. But on the flip side, she lets the girl watch Hannah Montana and listen to Brittney Spears. So, what do I know? Given the current direction I think at some point my daughter is going to know the truth for herself and is probably going to be the one correcting her mother. What a silly situation for my ex to put herself in.

[Hari Seldon]

I would stick to my guns on this one. Too many people already believe nonsense. About time to separate the real from the fiction.

I still remember when my 6 yo daughter complained one morning that the tooth fairy had not visited the night before. Why complain to me?, I asked. I will never forget the look I got from her. When she was four she had her own imaginary kingdom and even went a little ways to creating a language for it (gulemorg = good morning) but she damned well knew it was imaginary.

[The Hamster King]

Originally Posted by Severian

But when one is beginning to grasp the boundries and differences between real life and fantasy it seems really counterproductive to create roadblocks in that path.

Not really. She'll figure it out on her own as she gets older. Even with the huge conspiracy the entire country engages in to keep the truth about Santa hidden from little kids, no one makes it to high school still believing in Santa.

Adults who can't separate fantasy from reality are that way because they're suffering from some profound mental disturbance, not because they never learned how to tell the difference when they were kids.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by The Hamster King

Not really. She'll figure it out on her own as she gets older. Even with the huge conspiracy the entire country engages in to keep the truth about Santa hidden from little kids, no one makes it to high school still believing in Santa.

Adults who can't separate fantasy from reality are that way because they're suffering from some profound mental disturbance, not because they never learned how to tell the difference when they were kids.

That's just it though - to me, the kid is obviously figuring it out on her own right now, and my ex-wife doesn't want her to. She's making it more difficult for the child to figure it out on her own.

To be clear, I'm not so concerned that my daughter will grow up unable to separate fantasy from reality. Rather, I wonder what effect this sort of thing has on the child's relationship with the parent, and with schoolmates who almost assuredly know the Disney princesses are pretend.

It's probably not as big of a deal as it felt like it was when I was being accosted for robbing my daughter of one of her last bits of innocence, but I do think it's a very odd thing to push on your kid.

[carlotta]

Originally Posted by Severian

Any questions I get from my daughter are replied to with a question of my own: "I don't know Honey, that's a great question. What do you think?"

Heh, I was coming into this thread to suggest exactly that approach. I'm not a big fan of Santa but I wasn't going to try and sit 3 year olds down and say, "everyone else is lying to you."

My philosophy is I neither work for Santa or against him. When my kids ask me questions about Santa or how he does stuff I just ask the question back to them as if they know the answer. Presents show up on Christmas morning. The kids can think whatever they want about where they came from.

My 12 year old probably stopped believing in Santa at about age 8. My 9 year old won't stop despite propaganda and mocking from the 12 year old.

So I agree with your "what do you think?" approach. And your ex trying to get the kid to believe the Disney princesses are real? Crazy.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

No, children should be educated as early as possible. JS Mill's childhood is an excellent model to follow as reasonably as possible.

[Nava]

Just dropping by to reccomend the work of Bruno Bettleheim. It was recommended to me after I'd ranted against "toning down" fairy tales because I view them as useful training tools in their original forms, which was Bettelheim's view as well. His books are very well-written, easy to follow. (And I now see he was mentioned already - twice!)

I think it is important to be critic of the stories your kids are exposed to: do they include any messages you'd rather not give your kid ("girls must be rescued and swoon, that's all they're good for"), do they upset the kid ("why are wolves always bad! WAAAAAAAH" - our lastname means wolf)? But as I said, they make for good training tools.

Do you never read a novel? Never watch a movie? I've got news: DNA analysis take more than five seconds to run! There's nothing wrong with fantasy, and a lot wrong with wanting a little kid to think like a grown up. Figuring out "reality" vs "invented" is an important part of growing up, it can't be imposed or hurried up.

[BigT]

The messed up thing is the mother trying to stop the child from figuring it out. Most parents don't even do that with Santa Claus. When the kid figures it out, the jig is up.

I think the kid is going to think mom is stupid (or worse, a liar) for a little while. While that doesn't usually happen when both parents are on the same page, kids from a divorce constantly seem to try to figure out which parent to trust.

But, note, that is a rather small consequence that she'll likely get over rather quickly as long as Mom isn't teaching her other falsehood, or isn't otherwise a bad parent.

My citation is my experience babysitting divorced kids.

[constanze]

Originally Posted by Nava

Just dropping by to reccomend the work of Bruno Bettleheim. It was recommended to me after I'd ranted against "toning down" fairy tales because I view them as useful training tools in their original forms, which was Bettelheim's view as well. His books are very well-written, easy to follow. (And I now see he was mentioned already - twice!)

Both J.K. Rowling in her Beedle the Bard tale and Terry Pratchett make fun of "toning down" fairy stories, read those passages to her! (The Amazing Maurice ... is aimed esp. at kids, and to what degree we need fairy tales; the same point is in Hogfather: why humans need to believe in Santa - as practice for believing in justice and humanity and fairness; Witches Abroad is a closer look at several fairy tales come true, as well as poking fun at Disneyworld vs. New Orleans. Remember that there is an annotated Pratchett site for the background).

And "Politically correct bedtime stories" (two volumes now) are a satirical reworking of well-known fairy-tales.

[constanze]

Originally Posted by Severian

That's just it though - to me, the kid is obviously figuring it out on her own right now, and my ex-wife doesn't want her to. She's making it more difficult for the child to figure it out on her own.

To be clear, I'm not so concerned that my daughter will grow up unable to separate fantasy from reality. Rather, I wonder what effect this sort of thing has on the child's relationship with the parent, and with schoolmates who almost assuredly know the Disney princesses are pretend.

Part of growing up is also discovering that adults generally, and parents esp., are not Gods, or all-knowing: some are unreliable, all make mistakes, and some have their own agenda.

I know some adults/ parents believe they should never admit mistakes to children because it would cause them problems; I'm always for admitting mistakes.

Similar, the fact that your ex-wife sees things different should just be pointed out by you, not to bad-mouth your ex-wife, just that people have different opinions, and daughter will have to figure out for herself where her opinion is

I don't want to say "figure out where her truth is" because that sounds like people who reject objective reality; but in the case of Princesses, it's a bit like wave-particle answer: on different levels, princesses exist, because all little girls dream of being pampered, allowed to eat ice cream and ride ponies and wear pink, and there's nothing wrong with dreaming a bit about it, so in a way, Disney princesses exist alongside real princesses.

[kanicbird]

Fairy tails are ways of teaching things to children in a manner they understand, like fiction works today, myths of old, or parables that Jesus and others told. They are a basic way that humanity has used to teach and communicate ideas and ideals and as such are part of a healthy human experience.

You can't hide fairy tails from children. In trying to do so you are creating a disconnect between the child and his/her piers, or between your child and you if she accepts the fairy tales despite what you teach about them . It could also lead to a false sense of mental superiority which may be isolating for a child.

[overlyverbose]

I don't see any harm in it. Your daughter will come to know they're just stories on her own. However, if your ex has been insistent for some reason that any story is real, that seems a little weird.

For example, she doesn't have to address the factual nature of the story going in - it's not necessary to have a disclaimer, "Before we read this, this story isn't real." But, if your daughter is asking whether the princesses are real, it would be odd if your ex for some reason insisted they were.

[sugaree]

I think it's harmless for children to believe in Santa Claus or fairies, and I think the process of figuring out whether or not such creatures are "real" is a great way to develop critical thinking skills.

[TriPolar]

Fairy tales aren't real?!?! Oh crap. That explains a lot.

[raspberry hunter]

I think your ex-wife is really weird.

I must have been about 6 when the Little Mermaid came out, and I had certainly read a bunch of fairy tales around that time. It didn't even occur to my parents or any of the other adults around me to try to say there was any reality to them. Like others have said, I certainly had a level of pretending it was true -- but I knew it wasn't. And my parents definitely did Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, too, though it was at around this age that I started having suspicions about them.

Your daughter will be fine, but your ex-wife sounds a little like she's a mess. And setting herself up for your daughter not listening to her at all.

[Chipacabra]

Me, I don't really have a problem with a little kid believing in fairy tales. Like other posters have said, as the kid grows and gets a better grasp of what is and is not realistic, they'll stop believing in them on their own.

On the other hand, deliberately and systematically lying to a child rubs me the wrong way, badly. When the kid realizes that you've been intentionally deceiving her for years, how can she trust anything that you've taught her?

Tell the stories. Let the kid believe them as long as they want to, but when they start questioning if they're actually real don't lie to the child. Congratulate them on their critical thinking skills and take pride that she's growing up well. Sheesh.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Severian

It's probably not as big of a deal as it felt like it was when I was being accosted for robbing my daughter of one of her last bits of innocence, but I do think it's a very odd thing to push on your kid.

Robbing a child of her innocence would be telling her this stuff is fake when she still believed. Telling her it is real when she is figuring out that it isn't is robbing her of her reason.
Your strategy of asking what she thinks worked for us for the Santa Claus issue, with the benefit that my older daughter gained confidence in her reasoning abilities.
Mr. Rogers distinguished the Neighborhood of Make Believe from the real world, and had the trolley as a transition from one to another. Telling kids that Cinderella is wonderful make believe (or which ever one you want) is fine, and they are perfectly capable of suspending disbelief and acting as the characters and stories are real when it is fun. It also lets you read several versions and not have to try to explain the contradictions.