Because she DIED thre days after she was born, a$$hole!

The BBQ Pit
1

So first, a bit of history.

Grizzwife gave birth to our twins, boy and girl, on Oct 3 2000, some NINE weeks earlier than the due date. Unfortunately, our daughter died three days later. But our son is doing WONDERFULLY, and we rejoice in his presence. You’d never know that the GrizzSon was EVER a preemie that weighed a little over 4lbs at birth!

But, fairly often, we have these “moments” when we just break down and have a cry. They come a little less frequently than they once did, and they don’t last as long as they used to. But they do happen every time there’s a milestone that our son has; because we know that we’ll never experience that with our daughter.
-First word “Mom”…YAY! <sniff>
-First sign “Dad”…YAY! <sniff> (we’re teaching him to sign, even though he’s not hearing impaired.)
-First teeth…YAY! <sniff>
You get the idea.

Forward to yesterday. GrizzWife and I are sitting in Arby’s enjoying a little lunch, and having a “moment”. We’re approached by a gentleman that could be in his sixties, and he asked…
“Boy or girl?”
I say, proudly “Boy!”
he responds… “What’s wrong with girls?!”

I kid you not about this next part… I SWEAR that I heard myself growl and my wife said that’s the only time she seen anyone actually ever bare their teeth at anyone.
I can’t believe how mad I got! A few years ago, I’d have caused a HUGE scene with me screaming profanities in this guy’s face, showering him with spit and hot breath. A few years before that, and he’d have thrown up his lunch because I’d have hit him in the gut that hard!

I know he meant well, I know he was trying to be friendly and have a joke and I know that he didn’t know better.

Yeesh, I’m still speechless. Man, I can’t even bring myself to swear. (I promised myself I’d stop when the babies were born, and I’ve been good about it!)

Am I just being overly sensitive about all of this? Should I have tried to calmly explain the situation?

I dunno… I guess I just wanted a little vent.

Thanks

2

Man, losing a kid must be the toughest thing in the world. I’m sorry for you.

I think you did the right thing. The insensitive lout stepped in a minefield he had no idea could be there. Blowing him up would be pointless.

Had he stuck to the mores of polite discourse with stangers, it wouldn’t have happened, so it’s his fault.

I’m glad your son is doing so well.

3

Totally terrible situation, but remember this:

He did not know of your loss and would probably never have said such a thing if he did. If you had explained, he probably would have felt terrible for a long, long time for what was meant as a lighthearted joke/comment.
While it magnified your pain greatly, he did not mean to do that, I’m sure.

Issues like this will come up as long as people feel the need to comment on the quantity, gender, or timing of the decision to have children. When people realize it’s rude to ask/comment about personal issues, these things won’t happen, but I wouldn’t count on that happening anytime soon.

I’m not saying he had the right to say what he did, but just trying to say that he probably did not mean to hurt you in any way.

Zette

4

A) Hitting him in the stomach would have been wrong. Satisfying and morally justified possibly, but wrong.

B) Miss Manners would suggest giving the guy a frosty stare, saying “Good day, sir.” and promptly ignore him (it’s technically called “cutting him dead”).

C) I’d suggest (pending what your son knows about your daughter) saying something like “No one but you suggested that anything was wrong with girls, you insensitive jackass. We loved our daughter and we grieve for her loss.” and THEN ignore his stammered apologies.

Even though he didn’t know your background, what he said was out-of-bounds. I don’t see any way that it could have been taken as anything even vaguely polite.

Fenris

5

GrizzRich, before I even begin, I want to express my sympathy to you at the loss of your daughter, who will always be a part of your life and memory. And congratulations on a smart and beautiful little boy who brings you such joy!

I do have issue with two things:

Zette I agreed with your whole post up to this point. But, actually he had the right to say whatever he wanted. It just so happened that what he said, in context to all the background that we’ve been given and he didn’t have…it just wasn’t appropriate.

and Fenris:

It could have been taken as a ‘joke’. A joke implying that it may be a woman’s choice of what sex baby she has, that they purposely chose to have a boy. Would it be so out of bounds if the background wasn’t what it was? No. It would just be a goofy old man trying to say something clever.

It’s like the time one of my husband’s friends was pestering me and I jokingly said “I think I hear your mom calling you”. Little did I know, his mom had died three months prior. Should he have punched me in the stomach? Called me an insensitive asshole? I HAD NO IDEA.

Once again, I’m sorry for Grizz’s loss, and I know we’re all trying to be supportive of him, (which I am as well, as I can’t even IMAGINE the sadness I would feel), I think perhaps the reaction of:

Would have been shockingly devastating to man just trying to be friendly and unknowingly failing. Good christ, this is why I’ll never say anything to anyone on the street, not even Hello. I’m afraid you’d punch me in the stomach for pronouncing it wrong.
jarbaby

6

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. There are very few “things that should never be” in the world, the greatest is having to bury your children. I’m sorry for your loss. While my experience is not the same, I’d like to share it with you. I don’t expect it will alleviate any sadness or anger, but I hope it lets you know that there unthinking people everywhere and that you are not alone.

After Mrs. Spritle’s miscarriage and D&C, I took her to walk around Annapolis (well, a few days after the D&C, as she slept a lot the first few days.) There we met a very good friend of hers, one we haven’t seen in a long time.

After a bit of a chat, she (friend) announces that she is pregnant. We rejoice as much as possible. Then in what was “innocent” questioning on her part, she pats my wife’s stomach!! and asks when we are going to have news to announce.

Mrs. Spritle gave a very curt smile and said, “Well, if we had seen you last week - before my D&C - we would have had better news.”

Then it got awkward.

I know that the friend just wanted us to share/experience the joy she and her husband felt, but it was very presumptuous. Kind of like all those people at the wedding reception who congratulated us and asked us when we were going to have kids.

When we were pregnant, and even now, Mrs. Spritle and I make a concerted effort NOT to say anything of the sort regarding other people’s life decisions. If only others would do the same.

7

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Zette
**

Jarbaby, Zette I really disagree. A complete stranger has absolutely no right to comment on personal matters of any sort. Period. Even as a “joke”. If a stranger is permitted to make comments on your “choice” of your child’s gender, a stranger would also be correct in commenting on your choice of partner/spouse, clothing choice, number of children, type of food you’re eating, etc. It’s extremely rude and boorish. And had the jackass not made such a personal comment, this wouldn’t have happened.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jarbabyj *
**

It’s different with friends, IMHO, and your comment was unfortunate, but not overly personal.

Had the lout mistaken a one-year old boy for a girl and said “What a beautiful little girl”, my response would have been completely different. That’s an honest mistake from a polite comment. The crude personal crack that the lout made by implying that Mrs. Grizz had a choice and made the wrong one, pushes him over the line from faux pas to boorish jackass.

**

“Hello” is acceptable for strangers.
“Nice weather, isn’t it?” is acceptable for strangers.
“Boy, the bus seems late today!” is acceptable for strangers.
“That’s a beautiful child” is acceptible for strangers.

“Why are you having so many kids? Don’t you know overpopulation’s a huge problem” isn’t.
“Hey! Why are you eating meat/vegan food? Don’t you know that’s stupid?” isn’t.
“Hey, why don’t you get cosmetic surgery, you’re really ugly” isn’t.
and
“Hey lady, let me belittle you and your child by implying that you had the choice of gender of your child and you chose wrongly” isn’t.

Hopefully a response like that would teach this lout a lesson in the most basic, bottom-level, beginning manners.

And allow me to reiterate that I did not suggest that it would have been right or good to punch the old guy, but rather that I understood his

Fenris.

8

finishing that last sentence:

…I understood Grizzrich’s feelings and, were I on a jury, I wouldn’t vote “guilty”.

Fenris

9

So I can’t say “boy, you have beautiful eyes.” or “What a nice dog you’ve got”?

My GOD Fenris, maybe GrizzRich should come in and clarify. Did the old man wag his finger in their face and angrily ask what was wrong with girls, or was it a casual off the cuff comment like “hot enough for ya?”

And what if my dog had been hit by a bus that morning? And what if my child had just been diagnosed with cancer? You never know what will set someone off. A friend of mine made a joke that I had one eye slightly smaller than the other and I didn’t speak to her for weeks. people are sensitive about different things.

I UNDERSTAND Grizz’s reaction. I UNDERSTAND his angst. I just don’t think that we can make a list of what’s ok to say and what’s not.

jarbaby

10

I thik the critical difference here is that gender is not a choice, so the comment can’t really be seen as critism. I can see doing the same thing to a kid:'Are you right handed or left handed?" “Right-handed” “What’s wrong with left-handed?” With most kids that would result in about 10 seconds of puzzled reflection, and then a spurt of giggles. I might also say “Why’d you go and grow so much?”

If the guy had said “So, whe’s he gonna get a sister?” or something like that, yeah, that would be horribly rude. But I think this was just a joke, made with the understanding that no one does chose thier child’s gender, so no real accusation could be construed.

And GrizzRich, I hope you accept my condolences for your loss.

11

**

Let me play Devil’s Advocate here. He might have interpreted the pride in your voice to be shock that you think the he was a she.

**

It sounds like you’ve still got some rage issues that you might want to deal with. I guess it isn’t as bad as it was a few years ago since you didn’t actually turn violent.

Yeah, I think you’re being overly sensitive about this. It seems pretty obvious that he wasn’t trying ot be offensive and I don’t think you can really expect people to automatically know everything bad that’s happened to you.

I’ve never gotten angry at remarks made regarding my father after he passed away. In fact a few times I’ve managed to have a little fun with it. But that is just me and I realize not everyone handles the death of a loved one the same way. Have you considered that you’re angry at the loss of your child and this guy made an easy outlet for your rage?

Marc

12

Thanks to all of you who came in to give me support and help me look at this through different eyes.

As I said, I know the fella was just trying to be friendly. I’m not faulting him for his humour or attempt at smalltalk. I’m just glad to know that there are others who can understand the way I was feeling right at that moment.
To be sure, I didn’t berate him, yell at him, or cause him any harm. Heck, I’m not even sure that he caught my sneer and growl. I just kinda froze there.

Fenris… I should have known the “Good Day, Sir” cut. But at the moment, my head was throbbing and, if I opened my mouth, I’m sure something like “BLAGGA!BLAGGA!BLAGGA!” would have come out.

Thank you all for your words and thoughts and kindness. I’m glad to know that I’m just a man with probably no more or less emotion than anyone else who would have gone through the same thing.

Spritle… I understand your position. Before we were blessed with our son, GrizzWife had a pregnancy that stopped growing at 7weeks and had to have a D&C. And exactly the same thing happened, but without the “touchy-belly”.

13

I am so sorry for your and Mrs. GrizzRich’s loss.

Are you being overly sensitive? No. It’s like having someone come up and slap you on the back. Most of the time, you’ll see it as a good-natured gesture of friendliness. If you were out all day at the beach yesterday and have a raging sunburn, you’ll see it as an extremely painful and violent act. Your circumstances have left you with wounds that are still raw and open, and his ignorant comment was like pouring acid on them.

Your intense, instinctive reaction is just a sign that the wounds are still very close to the surface, and perhaps a reminder that you still have some work to do on healing them as best you can. Bereaved parents groups are a great help to many, since despite all the kind words of others who say “I can imagine how you feel”, to be honest, only others who have actually been there can relate to the strength of your emotions. (A warning to consider, however: as someone who does still have a beautiful child, you could become the object of resentment by some others in a group who were left childless.) I know that your little girl is a loss that will be with you always, but I do hope that you can soon make it to the point where the joys of your son’s achievements aren’t overshadowed by the ache of her loss.

The old coot was guilty of not being a terribly good conversationalist. His comment was stupid, not malicious. If you had told him your circumstances, I’m sure he would have been devastated at his insensitivity. Lashing out at him would have done no good at all. Let’s save the violent reactions and vitriol for the people who are INTENTIONALLY malicious. There’s certainly no shortage of them.

By the way —
You get bonus points on your not-swearing vow by using the $$'s in a pit thread title. Very impressive, especially considering the GrizzCub probably won’t be reading for another 5 years or so.

14

JMHO.

People are so unfriendly today. Have you ever started a conversation with a stranger in a store? Fully HALF THE TIME they will look at you, then ignore you without saying a thing. The other half are dumbfounded for a bit as they digest the fact that someone is ACTUALLY talking with them!

Now you want to punish someone for being friendly. Yup, they said the wrong thing but they didn’t know.

Don’t punish friendly people. The world needs more of em!

Blink

15

First, Griz, let me say that I’m so terribly sorry for the loss you and your wife have suffered. Surely nothing in this life could be worse than to bury a child.

Next, I can totally sympathize with your feelings about the offhand remark. It was not meant to be a criticism I’m sure, but oh how those remarks can hurt.

Also, let me compliment you on your self-control. Not easy, I am QUITE sure.

I find it amazing, the insensitivity (intentional or not) that people can display. Many years ago, I lost a baby at about two months gestation because it was tubal. It ruptured and I lost not only the baby, but the tube and ovary on that side. This added fear to my grief, for now I wasn’t sure I’d ever be able to have a baby. Everyone was kind and sympathetic, but more than once, I heard them say, as they expressed their sympathy, that at least I hadn’t felt the baby move yet, or at least I hadn’t actually HAD the baby before I lost it. As I later found out, this actually WOULD have made the loss harder to bear, but at the time I really hurt and such comments made me feel as though my loss was being minimalized. Even now, if I remember in depth how I felt at that time, losing the baby and recovering from a difficult surgery, I still cry. People should think before offering words of encouragement to see if they will truly be a comfort.

I have two beautiful children now–a daughter, 6, and a son, 17 months. I am very grateful for them, as I know you have been for your son, Griz. I hope that life brings you and your family much joy from here on out.

16

I have nothing to add other than my condolences for your daughter and my congratulations for your son.

Rys

17

And, no, you never do get over the loss. Starting a family has changed me. I regret the child we lost, and I fear for the ones we have. I have a hard time editing stories in which children are abused, because I see how vulnerable they are. I’m an adult, and know what dangers there are out there, and they do not and are unselfconsciously happy and sad and wrapped up in their own world. And, with luck, they’ll be allowed to grow up and out and maybe start families of their own, but there are no guarantees in this life, no certainties.

I don’t see anything unusual in what you’re feeling or in how you’re reacting Griz. You’re not alone in feeling that way, just strong enough to admit it.

18

Grizz… your reaction was completely understandable in light of your personal situation.

But I don’t think the man did a single thing wrong. He meant absolutely nothing by it, it was just a silly joke.

stoid

19

Grizz, as a parent I can only imagine how I would have dealt with that situation.

Everyone else here has pretty much covered everything I would have said, so I’ll just send you my sincere sympathy on the loss of your daughter and my hopes for a long and rewarding life with your son.

Hermit

20

My sympathy Grizz. I always thought that a loss in a twin birth was really the cruellest way to lose a child. Birthdays, everything is bittersweet and that’s permanent. At least on my son’s birthday I can go and be a total howling bitch for how ever long it takes for me to feel better.

I remember about a week after he died, we were having lunch in a restaurant and a doting dad decided to try and make me dote on his baby. He kept trying to attract my attention and make me admire his kid. I sent every vibe I could to make him Leave Me Alone. In the end he came over to the freaking table and started trying to get me involved in his baby admiration fest (I’m normally the kind of person who would play right along with this but I just wasn’t in the mood at that stage of my life). He said something and I said my baby died last week and get that baby AWAY from me.

He moved away and I’m sure he felt shitty. I’m also damned certain that I felt shittier for much much longer.

I don’t think you had a rage reaction at all out of proportion to the tremendous loss you have sustained. I often used to think that life would have been a lot easier if I could have just hung a sign around my neck which said “the baby died, I feel like shit, be kind”