What would be an appropriate punishment for this? (teenage daughter troubles)

In My Humble Opinion
1

A little background: my oldest daughter is 16 years old. We’ve had plenty of problems with her, and she is currently being treated for bipolar disorder. She has been homeschooled (at her repeated requests) for 3 years now. The beginning of last semester, we wanted her to take two classes at the community college. We told her she had to take an algebra class, as she didn’t seem to be catching on at home, and she could take one class of her choosing. She wanted to take choir, and we said “fine”. Then she saw a painting class listed and begged to be allowed to take that, too. We relented. Well, about two months ago, we got a notice from the school that she had been dropped from her painting class for lack of attendance. We paid about $150.00 for her tuition, and another $50.00 for supplies, so there was $200.00 down the drain. We confronted her, did some yelling and let her know how angry we were. She cried and apologized. She said she had started hanging out with some people between classes who distracted her, and she just “forgot” to make it to painting class on time. Well, yesterday, we got another notice from the college (I didn’t see it until just this morning). She’s been dropped from her algebra class for lack of attendance! The tuition plus books for this class, $225.00. Algebra class was her first class, on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, so she can’t use the same excuse for this as she did for art.

I am so angry right now, I can’t begin to think of what an appropriate disciplinary measure would be! Any input would be appreciated.

2

Well, it’s not so much punishment you want as redirection, IMHO.

She’s clearly demonstrated that she can’t be trusted to make it to class on her own, right? Then you need to set something up where she doesn’t really have much choice about getting to class.

Now I realize that painting and choir are sort of fluffy classes that (for all of me) she could skip straight through. But algebra is an important one. If she wants to succeed (she may not yet) in college or the outside world basic math like algebra is beyond important.

Let me bring my own experienc in. I was technically labelled by the county in which I lived as an ‘out of control’ juvenile. I went from regular school to a boarding school (A ‘friends’ school. And they were much nicer than I deserved) to a lockdown school for troubled kids (and eventually a day program at that same school). The reasons for this are multitudinous and I won’t go into it here.

But the important thing is that I was put in a situation where I had to go to class and do the work. The choice was removed from me completely.

And I can’t say it hasn’t paid off. What was important there was the structure in which I was placed. All the counselors and advisors and such didn’t really help much but they did provide sufficient structure and routine that I was able to think things through for myself and make reasonable decisions based on what I wanted (within that structure). Enough of those decisions were positive that when I went to college I was whiz-bang.

I can’t really say anything for advice other than if she’s proven she can’t be relied on to get the job done you need to get her in an environment with less choice for her. Take her out of home schooling and get her into high school. Maybe not a standard one but I almost guarantee that there’s one with a stricter system somewhere in your county. Then see if that gets the job done. If it doesn’t then raise the bar again.

Like I said, it worked for me.

3

Working off $425 in chores seems like an obvious place to start.

4

She has shown she cannot be trusted.

No tv, no phone, no computer, until the debt is paid off. Does she have a job? She turns over her paychecks to you until she has reimbursed you for tuition.

She asked you for fun classes, you gave them to her, she abused the gift. No more fun stuff until the debt is paid off.

IMHO, 16 is old enough to know better. “Forgot to make it to painting class?” Bullshit.

You may also want to talk to the doctor about adjusting her meds. I’ve had some experience in this area with a family member, and trust me, it takes a loooooong time to get the medication right. But do not let her use her illness as an excuse for ditching class. People with bipolar still have to take responsibility for their actions.

5

Jonathan Chance, you know, we always thought sending her back to public school was out of the question, because we thought she’d probably just ditch classes and party all day. We have never thought about an alternative school, but this could very well be worth discussing. Also, it’s good to know that you come from this kind of childhood, and turned out okay!

Fionn and ivylass, yes, paying off the debt will definitely have to be part of it! I think she’s going to be hired by the local Taco Bell, and most likely, her father or I will have to drive her there and make sure she goes in the door, even though it’s walking distance! As for the computer, telephone, etc., she will definitely be losing some privileges!

Ivylass, her meds have been recently adjusted, and her doctor says we have to stick with this regimen for a couple of months to see if it really works; you just don’t know right away. And, yes, she tries to blame a lot of this crap on her bipolar (“I can’t help it; lack of impulse control is part of the illness”, she whines. But then, she expects us to trust her when she wants to do something; believe me, from a parental point of view, it gets real old, real quick!).

Thanks for your input, guys. We’ll read it all and spend a couple of days deciding on a course of action.

6

[QUOTE=norinewAnd, yes, she tries to blame a lot of this crap on her bipolar (“I can’t help it; lack of impulse control is part of the illness”, she whines. But then, she expects us to trust her when she wants to do something; believe me, from a parental point of view, it gets real old, real quick!).

[/QUOTE]

I’m glad to see you’re not letting her manipulate you. Keep us posted.

Now, would it be more effective for you to take all her paycheck, or all of her paycheck except $1? Which would sting worse? After all, she’s not had a paycheck before, so what would she be losing if she never sees it to begin with?

7

I think what would sting the most would be for us to make her cash the check and then hand the cash over to us. Again, these details will all have to be worked out. Also, I’m not sure that taking all of her paycheck is the best idea. If we do that, she has little or no incentive not to screw up so badly she loses the job. So many things to consider! And it’s hard to think clearly when I’m still so angry!

8

Whatever you do, stick to your guns, and make it clear from the beginning that if she tries in any way to sabotage the “amendment process” (like not taking her meds, so she stays moody, or getting fired) that it will take even more to “settle” than before, and she’ll STILL have to meet the original “making amends” settlement.

Don’t let her wriggle out, make it so she decides to stick with the original agreement because it’s in her best interest to do so. Get her to sign an agreement too, and have a copy for her therapist, so the therapist can maybe work with her to “meet her obligations”.

I’d even say, that if she ditches the responsibility, that I’d take her to small claims court, to hammer home the idea that it’s a tough world, and responsiblities can’t be dodged. Just ask that the original agreement be met, with maybe some community service, or a donation to a charity?

She’s old enough for something like that. It’s tough yeah, but she’d learn quickly to stick by her word, and to meet her obligations the first time around, lest the penalties for not doing so get worse. Just my opinion though. Tough love works sometimes is what I’m saying.

9

You can always try a slightly modified form of what my mom did with my sister when she moved back home after college. She made my sister pay her rent each month which caused no end of bitching from sis. On my sister’s wedding day, several years later (she had moved out long before then, but had been at home for around 2 years) mom presented her with the cash amount of all the rent she’d paid, plus the interest it had accumulated while it sat in a special bank account. Sis was pretty :o :eek: .

I’d suggest telling her she will be cashing her check and handing over the entire amount each week. She will receive $5 to do with as she will. The rest is split 80/20 into pay off classses/put in bank account THAT ONLY MOM AND DAD HAVE ACCESS TO. Her 18th birthday present can be the bankbook.

I agree with the advice to refuse any “fun” classes, and I also agree with checking into the alternative schools. Some counties have separate schools for the “hard” behavior cases and situations like your daughter, so you don’t really have to fear her picking up behavioral patterns from the typical alternative school attendee. Also… how has she been getting to the college? Is it within walking distance, or do you have to drive her? Your option, of course, is the “total humilation” route… walk her to each of her classes. She has the option of explaining to her friends why this is occurring.

10

Your daughter needs to learn to manage her own condition rather than use it as an excuse. If she depends on this “excuse” too long, someone may take over the management of her condition for her. Just take my word for it, when the judge signs an order to detain for evaluation, whoever picks you up does not have to read Miranda to you before they cuff you. You cease to have rights until the state approved doctor say that you can exercise them.

11

hlanelee Yeah, that’s why I was advocating “tough love” now. So she learns that whatever she does, there’s a consequence, and consequences aren’t pleasant, so best to do the right thing, properly, and the first time.

12

Well, that last part is always up for grabs, I suppose!

I think everyone focusing on the dollars and cents of the matter are off on a tangent. Sure, it’s easy to see a solution to that…but it doesn’t address the root cause of the problem.

Your daughter needs some structure in her life to give her a chance to straighten out. That doesn’t mean home schooling and it MOST certainly doesn’t mean a job until she straightens out. Again, I speak from personal experience here. Until she obtains some discipline a job will just be another path towards disaster for her.

You need to explore some sort of structure for her that she can’t easily avoid or subvert. Removing television and computer priviliges and such might sound nice but she can get those elsewhere and tell herself that she’s outwitting you. And that’s not doing her any favors.

Again, I’d be willing to bet that the local school system will have a counselor you could speak with about finding some alternative-to-mainstream system that your daughter could participate it. Maybe something that starts day and goes boarding if she doesn’t get herself together. There are all sorts of variations on this theme and a professional counselor (preferably with some psychology and therapeutic experience) can point you in the right direction.

13

Make her take her Taco Bell pay this summer and:

  1. Pay you off.
  2. Pay her own way to take these classes over again in the fall.

She can probably earn $850 this summer, no?

Sixteen is old enough to know better but I can sympathize with her. She actually has people to talk to, and when you’ve been lonely (I assume she has been) sometimes a deep, intellectual conversation in the commons area becomes more important than going to class. If your kid has had trouble in public high school, it could be that this is the first time she’s ever been accepted by her peers. I’m not excusing her, just speculating as to maybe why she let herself get so distracted.

Ivylass has a good point. Have the kid cash her check and then hand you the money. That will drive home the point to her that if you screw around, you don’t get to enjoy the fruits of your labors. Handing over actual cash is much more painful than just handing over a check.

14

Just so it’s clear, I’m bi-polar too. On preview, Jonathan Chance also has some good points though. She does need structure, but she also needs to learn that consequences can’t be dodged, or lessened if you wriggle hard enough.

15

Your daughter could be me at age 16!!! Substitute narcissistic personality disorder for bipolar disorder, I was just the same. The only thing I can tell you is that you HAVE punish her for this offense, and stick to your punishment! My mother had a hell of a time with me as a teen- she was forever punishing me, but she never really followed through on her punishments. That was a time in my life when I needed guidance and direction, and I didn’t really have it. Your daughter needs you right now more than ever, and you have to commit yourself to being there for her. As for punishment, I would suggest taking away as many privileges as you can. Another good way to make sure she attends class is to make her bring you her teacher’s signature for every class attended.
Also, tell her about a girl you know on the SDMB who screwed around so much in school, that it took her until she was 24 to attend college and do well.

16

Jonathan Chance, I completely agree with you that it’s not just about the money, in fact, the money is a fairly minor part of the issue (except that things are pretty tight for us lately, which she knows, and she was still selfish enough to fritter away money that we had to scrape together to send her to college in the first place). It’s about honesty, lack of respect for herself and others, and impulsiveness. I’m not sure that sending her to school right now would be an option, as it’s just about the end of the school year, but we can certainly check into it.
Abbbie Carmichael, you can add another $120.00 to the bill, because about 6 months ago, she ran up that much in long-distance (calling Tokyo :eek: ), and we told her that if she got good grades in her college classes, we would consider that as payment of this debt. The agreement was that if she didn’t do well, she would have to pay us back for the long-distance. Also, I understand your point about her friends, but she’s very social and has always had a great many friends. And, she herself said that the people she was hanging with instead of going to art class were drinking and getting stoned while she was supposed to be in class, so I seriousl doubt she was having any “deep, meaningful conversations” with them. She was just farkin’ around. :frowning:

Alias, I’m assuming you’re talking about her bringing us teachers’ signatures from public school, which we tried before we yanked her out of public school. Problem was, she attended classes in the sense that she was physically there, but didn’t do any of the work, and consistently lied to us about homework assignments, or “left her books at scool” so she couldn’t do her homework.

17

If you dod do something like this, please call up the instructor ahead of time and explain your daughter’s situation and ASK if they would mind signing off on a record for you. I teach high school and I always feel somewhat miffed when kids have homemade scign-in sheets that they abruptly shove in my face and mutter “my-mom-said-you-have-to-sign-this.” A sign in is even weirder in college, and a courtesy call and explanation of the situation would be more likely to get resuts.

I agree that there needs to be punishment, but don’t make it too draconian. For one thing, if it is super tough, you won’t be able to be consistient–accept your own limitations as a human being. If you have a job that won’t let you take off, don’t tell her that you will be coming with her to class everyday until she makes an A. If a personal high point of your week is taking a long bath and then having wild loud sex on friday nights when she is out with her friends, don’t ground her for three months–inside a month you’ll be looking for excuses to drop the punishment. If you really depend on her to help you run errands, don’t take the car away. You’ll be making exceptions inside two weeks.
Two, if the punishment is completely over the top she will see it as an intentional plan to set her up to fail, because it is clearly impossible for her to do all that. I am NOT saying that you should give her a slap on the wrist, but don’t complile all the suggestions here into one super punishment. A terrible secret is that we can only punish children if they agree to it–it only works as long as they value our esteem more than they value whatever has been taken away from them.

Ground a child for the weekend and they will accept the frustration and pain and work through it. Tell a child they are grounded for the next two years and that same very first weekend they will say “this is fucking impossible, no way I’m staying home for two years and if I am going to bust out I may as well do it from hte start.” They walk out the door and you have to decide if you want to physically stop them–which will involve a wrestling match you can’t win–or just let them go, because at that point, those are the only options you have–you can’t even punish them for it because they have just proven to themselves and you that they can ignore your punishments.

So you need to come up with some sort of stern yet resonable punishment that has the hope of redemption built in to it. What that is, I don’t know. It depends on your kid and what she values.

Punish her for skipping school, not for wasting money. I would NOT make it just about repaying you, bcasue in her mind that looks like “all mom cares about is her fucking $450 dollars.” This isn’t about the money, it’s about betraying trust. It you make her repay the money and pay for next semester, then next semester she may well think “Fuck it, I paid for this fucking class, I don’t have to fucking go if I don’t want to.” And how will you punish her for that?

I would recommend that you try and get at her real reason for not going to class, which she may not even know herself. This is not so that you can excuse her behavoir–which is inexcusable–but so that you can try and set things up so that this doesn’t happen again. Someone or something, actually, a combination of several someones and somethings–is making her uncomfortable. Find out what they are and deal with them. You may want to also figure out why she apparently does go to choir-there is some insight to be had there.

Lastly, you might make it clear to her that if she had come to you guys earlier and said “Look, I messed up, I haven’t been to class in a week, I need help” she’d have been helped, not yelled at or punished. This way the next time this pattern emerges maybe a light bulb will go off and she will come talk to you earlier when the problem is still solvable. Because even if you devise and implement the perfect punishment, it’s not going to fix all the problems here, and even if she learns a great deal from this go-round she is still going to have a lot of bad patterns to break. I guess what I am saying is that this—or somethig similar–is almost certainly going to happen at least one more time, so plan your punishment with that in mind–don’t make it in such a way that if she blows this, the only options left are letting her be or kicking her out.

18

I disagree with everyone who says that you should take her entire paycheck. I think norinew is right, her daughter will lose incentive to work if she’s not seeing at least some of the cash. Not sure if 50/50 would be the right split, but it’s probably what I’d use.*

*IANAPOFTC
I am not a parent or a formerly troubled child

19

Just out of curiosity, can you sue your own minor child in a small claims court?

20

Well, it doesn’t look like anything like this will go into effect right now anyway; she’s lost all of her college classes except for choir, and if the school system has anything to offer her over the summer, it will be a strick, alternative-ed thing.

I agree. If it seems like we’re taking everything away from her, there’s nothing else to lose and that’s not tenable for us

She doesn’t have her driver’s license yet; of course, this is another reason for not taking her whole paycheck, because we will expect her to save up to pay for drivers’ ed if she wants her license.

This was never my intention. My intention was only to get suggestions, so that we might take the ones that looked like they might work.

This is one of the things that makes this situation so damned hard. She doesn’t seem that concerned about anything.

I agree. But I don’t think we’ll be in another situation in the near future where we’re footing 100% of her tuition.

This is another part of the larger problem; she seems to have no real drive to be introspective. Whenever we try to get at the “why” of her behavior, she just clams up. She does the same thing with her counselor and psychiatrist. She once admitted that she’s not willing to do the work that it will take for her to get better. So frustrating!!

We tried to tell her this when she got kicked out of her art class; obviously, it hasn’t sunk in yet. She never seems interested in long-term consequences, it’s always about “what’s the easiest thing to do right now?”

Honest-to-God, as harsh as it may sound, we’ve felt to be at this point several times in the past year. I honestly don’t know what we’re going to do, but if anyone can help me figure it out, it’s the Dopers. You guys have a collective IQ of about 20 million! :cool: