Who Killed Jesus?

Great Debates
1

before i rant, and yes, there will be ranting, i would first like to thank God for leading me to this website because it has been far too long since i last posted in a forum.

I will get to the topic of this thread after the introduction… i do want to talk about who killed Jesus… but i must go over some other things first…

if you would like to skip the introduction and get straight to the topic (although i deeply implore you to read ALL of the introduction), press CTRL+F and type (or copy and paste) “Get to the Point” in the search box and… well… that will get you to the point.

…one last note before the introduction… these are simply the things i have chosen to believe. if you have not made the choice to believe some or all of the things i believe, or you have chosen NOT to believe anything pertaining, that is YOUR choice. it will not make me think any less of you as a human and i want to be your friend all the same. i like people. i love people. even people i don’t know. yes, just because they’re people. just because they’re another human life and i should love them. i love how there are over 6 billion UNIQUELY INDIVIDUAL human lives. it amazes me. i believe while there are some people who are horrible people, there isn’t any reason not to love them. i might not like what you do, but i know i may do things that you don’t like. the point is i want to respect a human life, even if it doesn’t deserve respect, because i know my life doesn’t deserve respect… but some horrible people have turned into loving and caring people and vice versa. i look back at things in my past and see a horrible person… but i know that i have made the choice to never do those things again. there are things in my life, as of this moment, that in the future i will look back on as horrible things i will never do again (such as smoking cigarettes… such a cliché, i know).

random interesting fact… saying something is a cliché is cliché.

…that accented ‘e’ brings me great joy. ALT+0233 for anyone interested.

p.s. i quote the Bible. i find it very quotable. i am not trying to preach. i am typing the way i perceive reality. call me crazy but… am i not allowed to perceive reality the way i choose? i don’t desire to harm anyone. live and let live.

…and now it’s time for the…

Introduction:

i must warn you before you read any further… i type long posts (i’m sure you’ve noticed by now if you’ve read this far). i would constantly be criticized by people in the last forums i posted in because of the length of my posts (partly the reason i left that forum and have had nothing to do with forums until now). if you do not like to read, if i begin to offend you, or if you just don’t find what i’m typing interesting, please stop reading immediately and please, please, PLEASE don’t complain about the length of my posts. you do not have to read this if you do not want to… and from personal observation, if you complain about the length of a post, people will either worship you and follow your lead or they will think you are lazy and ignorant and not desiring to read the thoughts, beliefs, or opinions of another human being. Criticizing the length of my posts does not discourage me. it only irritates me. i have a lot on my mind and it is very satisfying and soothing for me to type. As i have told many other people… i do not type my posts to please you. i type my posts for my own pleasure and for the pleasure of those who enjoy reading what i post. some will find it hard to believe that people could possibly enjoy reading what i type… but i have had positive feedback as well as negative… i like both.
if you have any questions about the things i type, or would like to intelligibly debate something i have typed… please… i love a challenge. know this… i am stubborn… and until i choose to change the way i think or believe, i will continue to think and believe the things i do.

i am not stupid… but i can be VERY foolish.

i like to debate with other humans. it brings me great joy. i like to type. this also brings me great joy. i find it much easier to type my thoughts than to speak them. i do not have a “backspace” for my mouth. i like being able to take my time with what i’m trying to convey to others. i tend to overuse the ellipsis… but as strange as it may sound, the ellipsis brings me great joy… don’t ask…

…

i believe God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit ARE. i believe Those three entities work together as One and as One are the highest of all deities, entities, powers, principalities, spirits, gods, and so forth and so on, etc., etc… i do not just believe. i know, as truth, that They exist. However, i am not a traditional Christian. i was raised Baptist, went to a Baptist school, was transferred to a Mennonite school, have been to churches of many different religions (Catholic, Pentecostal, Mennonite, CoC, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, and non-denominational, just to name the ones i can think of). i believe some religions are closer to the truth than others, but all religions have truths, and no religion is the absolute truth. i am not a religious person but i am very spiritual. i strongly believe that the Book of Mormon and the Qur’an are the Words of God as well as the Holy Bible. i believe the Holy Bible has been corrupted over time by evil and wicked men, but i believe the way we have the Holy Bible is the way God wants us to have it. It is filled with many truths. Bible simply means ‘a collection of books’. So quite literally, the Holy Bible is a collection of books intended to make one holy and godly. “Make every effort to be holy… without holiness, no one will see the Lord”–Hebrews 12:14. Holy means ‘to be set apart’, amongst other definitions. When Holy is used to describe God, it means ‘flawless’ or ‘perfect’. When holy is used to describe one’s actions or lifestyle, it means ‘separated’ or ‘set apart from’. therefore, those who are attempting to be holy for God Almighty take it upon themselves to do all they can to separate themselves from the things that will separate them from having an intimate (not sexually intimate, mind you) relationship with God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

i am not offended by “cuss” words. to me they are just words. i use them, but try to do so when i’m alone or with people who aren’t offended by them. the ultimate curse would be “God Damn”, because you are requesting God to damn something, and that’s a pretty hefty curse… i try not to say that but sometimes i do say it. i think it more than i say it. i do find myself using too many foul words and only try to use them tastefully or for emphasis.

i am not perfect, nor will i ever claim to be. i do not think i am better than anyone, nor do i think anyone is better than me. i believe i have a better relationship with God than some people and i believe that some people have a better relationship with God than i do. i believe God desires a relationship with all men who desire a relationship with Him. i strive to be holy, but often fall short of my goals and God’s expectations. i believe i will overcome the things in my life that i feel separate me from a perfect relationship with God, but no one can have a perfect relationship with God until after God’s judgment of mankind. i desire to be holy and i want to do what is right in the eyes of God for His glory, and nothing more. He has promised me a reward and if all i have to do is believe and practice what i believe, then, by golly… i want to believe. The promise of Eternal Life is enough to make me want to believe. i love life. it’s beautiful… and if i can have a perfect life for all eternity, i want it… and because it is promised to me, i will have it.

When i say “man” or “mankind”, unless i note otherwise, i am referring to both men and women alike.

i do not judge people. i judge their actions and i have every right to do so. It is my duty to protect myself from harmful influences that others can have upon me, and it is not wrong to judge people in that sense, but i should be able to control myself to the point where i don’t let what others do influence me. God alone is the judge of a man’s immortal soul, and God alone has the power to give life and to take it, eternally speaking. i will not point my finger at anyone and say “you’re going to burn in Hell”. That is not my position or decision to make. That is up to the individual and ultimately God. Those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ and those who practice living the life of love and holiness Jesus taught us to live are given a free pass into Heaven, regardless. “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”–Romans 10:9. yes, it is that simple… if you believe. although you must PRACTICE what you PREACH. “Faith without works is DEAD”–James 2:20 and “You will know them by their fruits”–Matthew 7:16

Through my personal life experiences, and through the evidences that i have gathered through my own free will of thoughts and judgments, as well as the written and/or spoken thoughts of others from past to present, i have come to the conclusion that there CANNOT not be God. God is Love. i have also come to the conclusion that God, being Love, would not create a world and allow so many bad things to happen without a plan of Salvation. i have chosen to follow His plan of Salvation, which is faith that He sent mankind a redeemer, Jesus the Christ, born of the virgin Mary, and raised and fathered by Joseph. This faith also believes as truth that Jesus lived a sinless life, something no other man had done before or would do after… EVER. Jesus did absolutely NOTHING wrong in the eyes of God. Jesus was found without blemish in the eyes of God. Because Jesus accomplished living a sinless life for the glory of God the Father, when Jesus died, and on the third day after He was buried, was resurrected from death through the power of God, Jesus conquered Death and Hell, and became as God, but did not take the throne of God. In Genesis 41:40, the Pharaoh says to Joseph “Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou”. This is the best verse to describe the rule of Jesus. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Jesus never outright claimed to be God. Jesus said “I and the Father are One”. This is how God and Jesus (and Holy Spirit) are One. The Three work together as One.

These are the things i truly believe, without doubt. Most everything else i believe can change given the right facts or right amount time… but through the will of God, i cannot change my mind about the Holy Trinity. Through His love, mercy, grace and forgiveness i will forever believe in the Holy Trinity, and i will forever believe that They rule supreme, and there is NO power greater than God.

i believe creation took billions of years and i believe evolution was a process of creation. i DO NOT believe man evolved directly from ape, or any sort of animal. Man was created of the Earth.

i believe Heaven and Hell are eternal rewards, and will be given to each soul after the Day of Judgment, which will be the day God completely separates evil from good for all eternity, and each will continue their own separate way for all time.

i believe in symbolism and i believe it is a powerful tool.

with 'nuff said… i will now get to the topic of this thread. Who killed Jesus? i read the article of the same topic… and i found it rather interesting and accurate. It brought to mind a sermon i once listened to and i wanted to share it with those who have read or possibly will read, and maybe even those who inspired and wrote the “Who Killed Jesus” article.

(This actually won’t be as long as my introduction, but i felt the insatiable need to type what i believe so those who read can know me on a more personal basis)
!?..Get to the Point…?!
Who Killed Jesus?

  1. I killed Jesus, because He died for MY sins.
  2. You Killed Jesus, because He died for YOUR sins (whether you believe or not).
  3. The Jews killed Jesus, because they asked for it.
  4. The Romans killed Jesus, because they let it happen.
  5. Judas killed Jesus, because he betrayed Him.
  6. Pilate killed Jesus, because he condemned Him.
  7. God killed Jesus, because He sent Jesus to die for the sins of mankind.

…that is the gist of the pastor’s sermon.

however, i honestly cannot remember if i heard this from that pastor… but…!

  1. No one killed Jesus.

Jesus laid down His own life. No one took Jesus’ life from Him. Jesus GAVE His life for ALL of mankind. Jesus knew what God wanted and what prophecy spoke of the Messiah. Jesus was commanded by God to live a sinless life and to die, sinless, for the sins of ALL men. Jesus lived His life for that moment… not to be killed mercilessly… but to freely offer His own perfect life in exchange for the imperfect lives of EACH and EVERY single man who ever had lived, who was living, and who would live.

John 3:16–“For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son…”.

John 15:13–“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man LAY DOWN his life for his friends”.

Romans 5:8–“God demonstrates His own love… that while we were still sinners, Christ died FOR us”.

Romans 5:10–“For if when we were ENEMIES of God we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son…”.

I John 3:16–“By this we know love, because He LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us”.

I John 4:8–"…God is love"
well… that’s that. i’m sure i’ll be browsing through the message boards and jumping into conversations at some point and time… and i’m sure eventually i’ll create another thread… but i hope for the time being this has interested and informed anyone who reads this… whether you believe in these things or not… i hope this thread has tickled your imagination and/or provoked some thought.

<3, 2, & xXxXx

-LQ

2

Give up…nobody here cares about this. You’re wasting your time.

3

Lacunas Quell, I can’t tell if this is a debate or if it’s simply witnessing. While both are perfectly acceptable in this forum, it is nice to know which of those is the intention, before deciding whether to respond.

Care to fill us in?

4
  1. Mel Gibson killed Jesus, in order to generate mad box office receipts by depicting His death in excruciatingly graphic detail.
5

this is why i encourage people to take the excruciating time to read ALL of my post. not just skim through it…

[Q]Give up…nobody here cares about this. You’re wasting your time. [/Q]

Dear Mr/Mrs/Ms Towers,

if you had read my post i believe you would have noticed that i made it perfectly clear the only reason i am typing said post is for my own personal satisfaction. this was not typed for you.

…and fyi… some people do care. please do not tell me no one cares. what you have said is criticism, and while i can tolerate criticism, i find what you said to be no different than calling someone a liar. therefore i find your reply pointless… and i don’t care what you have to say if you’re going to spit out one-liners like that.

[Q]I can’t tell if this is a debate or if it’s simply witnessing. While both are perfectly acceptable in this forum, it is nice to know which of those is the intention, before deciding whether to respond.

Care to fill us in?[/Q]

my intentions are simply to type my thoughts. if you would like to debate these things with me, please feel free to do so. i was commanded to be a witness… and even though i don’t go out on the streets and annoy people with gospel tracts, i feel i should still be a witness to the things that i believe to be true, and that’s why i annoy people in online forums. i really don’t try to annoy anyone, although i know for a fact i do annoy some… but i try to make my intentions clear so they don’t have to feel like i’m attacking or judging anyone or telling someone they are going to hell. i truly believe i have eternal life through Jesus Christ… and it’s my duty as a Christian to do what i can to get the word out that eternal life is granted to anyone who chooses to believe and who lives a life of love. my intentions aren’t to witness… but to be a witness.

i want people to know it’s ok to believe these things and it’s ok if you don’t (the Bible says to choose a side, and not be in the middle… God hates those who are lukewarm more than those who hate Him–Revelation 3:15-16). it’s getting to a point in this time and age of our world where Christians are treated like they were when they were persecuted by the Romans, but people still need to know that there is a loving Creator who has prepared an eternal life, and all you have to do is believe. if you do not want to believe, i am not forcing it on you. you are free to make your own choices and decisions, but remember this (and this is science)… For every action there is a reaction. …and for those who believe in Heaven, the more the merrier. the more people who choose to believe in the Love of God and practice it the happier they will be.

i think the absolute main point of this post was because i wanted people to get to know me so maybe i can get to know people. so i want to be up front and honest with anyone who may read this i like making online friends (and enemies, although i prefer friends). i just want anyone who reads this to know that while i believe in God, and believe in Heaven, and believe i’m going… i am not perfect as i am. i’m still a sinner and will be until the day i die… but when i die i know my journey will not end… and it’s comforting to know that i believe my immortal soul is in the hands of not only God of the universe… but the God of Love. the God who IS Love.

6

haha. that’s great.

sorry… this is probably considered an inappropriate post… but i had to give him/her credit for that one.

7

To use a borrowed phrase from ‘The Angelic Upstarts’

Who Killed Jesus?
Did you kill Jesus?
Who killed Jesus Christ?
Who killed Jesus
Did you kill Jesus
Who killed Jesus
POLICE KILLED JESUS CHRIST!!
MUUUUURRRRRRDDERRRRRRRRRR

8

A few points:

  1. The first letter of a sentence is capitalized.
  2. The letter ‘i’ is capitalized when you are using it as the personal pronoun.
  3. Less sugar on your cereal.
  4. Presuming any intelligence on Jesus’ part, dying at the time he did seems to have assured the world that his word would never directly make it to text, so that seems rather poor judgement. Instead, his word came to us in majority–theoretically–via Paul, who we have to assume learned everything Jesus would have wanted written when he was visited by the resurrected Jesus. Of course the Pauline tradition is largely to blame (even if Paul himself is not) for the persecution of the Jews all the way up to and including the WWII. This seems to lend particular credence to the idea that God and Jesus believed the Jewish people to be to blame.

But in real world terms, Jesus was most likely a cult leader of the same vein as David Koresh and really everyone in the general vicinity except for his followers was most likely more than happy to have him offed. In the sense that one is to be blamed for what one brought on himself, I’d have to agree that Jesus killed himself.

9

My intentions are simply to type my thoughts. This post is for my own personal satisfaction, not for you. Nobody here is going to accept Jesus based on the testimony of someone who can’t be bothered to hit the Shift key at the beginning of the sentence. If the OP feels called to spread his religion, he seriously needs to work on writing more skillfully. (Hint - you can accomplish more with brevity than with lengthy rambling.)

10

Tribune Mustard . . . in the Temple . . . with a gladius ?

11

You could have just written this:

and saved yourself thousands of words.

I still disagree, though.

12

1.) i realize this. however i did not realize i was going to be graded on the way i choose to type. If it would please you, I will start doing things you’re way… if i actually cared. please don’t treat me like a child. if this was for school or was job related… there would be perfect grammar and NO ellipses. …well… very limited use…

2.) I know(that one was for you). i just choose not to capitalize it.

3.) i bet you couldn’t even tell me the last time i ate cereal. although the last time i did eat cereal it was Golden Grahams crumbled on top of Snickers ice cream. it was really good.

4.) Jesus’ timing was perfect. who are you? Father Time? if you know how things should happen then maybe you should control time. not only can the word of God enlighten and make holy, it can also corrupt. Not everyone understands what God says. Taken from wikianswers… “Hitler’s references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian”. and also taken from wikianswers is a youth hymn that was sung… it went a little something like this…

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,

Away with incense and Holy Water,

The Church can go hang for all we care,

The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

a couple more quotes from wikianswers…

“Although Hitler referred to Christ as a ‘fighter’, this is in line with the view of the ‘German Christians’ of Christ as a ‘warrior’ (!). This is completely out of step with Christian teachings. To cap it all, Hitler and his movement proclaimed that ‘might is right’. I don’t see any case for regarding him as having espoused Christian beliefs. Odd scraps of some vague belief in ‘higher forces’ is at best residual Christianity - or superstition”.

and…

“The exact religion of Hitler, only Hitler will know. As far as his public religion is concerned: " I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.” - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2. Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: “Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews … The work that Christ started but could not finish, I – Adolf Hitler – will conclude.”

Hitler seems rather confused about the message of Christ. Christ came to conquer death, and Christians do not believe that their Lord failed at His task. Christ also came to be an example of love.
what is something that happens in a lot of cults? they end with mass death. Koresh’s camp went down fighting… they were attempting to kill people. how is this Christlike? how many people did Jesus’ disciples kill? and when “…one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear”–Matt.26:51… what did Jesus say about that? “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up thy sword … for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels to defend me?”–Matt.26:52-53. then what did Jesus do? “And he touched his ear, and healed him”–Luke 22:51. Jesus was a lover not a fighter. Jesus wanted to help people. Jesus didn’t come in this world to condemn, but to give the gift of eternal life.

I admit, there are three perfectly acceptable ways for a person to view Jesus Christ. CS Lewis said Jesus was either a “Liar, Lunatic, or Lord”. I have chosen to believe He is Lord… i can find no reason to believe He was a liar or a lunatic.

13

i bet Shakespeare heard that one a lot.

perhaps you could be right… in the mouth of fools is a multitude of words… then again… i’m not using my mouth to type. if idle hands are the Devil’s playground, i guess it’s good i’m keeping my hands busy.

I… ENJOY… TYPING.

I… DO NOT… CARE… IF MY… POSTS… ARE LONG WINDED.

PLEASE… GET OFF… OF… I… T.

i never attacked you. i don’t see why you find it necessary to attack me.

…and you know what else? if people are seriously going to judge my testimony on the way i choose to type my sentences and use punctuation and grammar… then so be it. that’s one of the most ignorant statements i’ve heard from anyone in quite sometime. so i’m a lazy typist. it’s not like this is going to be published and marketed and make me a million dollars. i capitalize proper nouns… except ‘I’… but i like the way a lowercase ‘i’ looks. it’s more me than I is.

so… efF U!

iF i WanTeD to TYpE lIkE ThiS i WouLD Do Ii AlL tHe tiMe aND tHeRE IS nOThIng YoU cOUlD dO ABoUt iT.

if you haven’t noticed… i treat my posts like entertainment. i’m not just trying to converse or debate or argue or witness. i like to spice things up. i like to get a lot of details in at once. i like to add dry humor. i like the way i type and use words and i am satisfied with it.

14

OK, if you want to write like you don’t give a shit, then go to another board where the people are idiots. Here, you’re going to be expected to type properly and to have concise arguments instead of just ranting and rambling. Also, I don’t think you have a very good understanding of what “dry humor” is.

15

Look, listen. You’re obviously making a case for something, right? I mean, that’s why you posted your unreadable screed on a message board rather than your own personal blog. You want to persuade people. Well, I can tell you that you’ll never, ever, persuade anyone of anything if you keep posting the way you’re doing.

Fact is, inattention to spelling, grammar, and capitalisation, in a written medium, are clear indications that the author is either stupid or crazy. Or both. Now, I don’t know you. You may be a genius. All I can tell is that you’re coming across very differently. I mean, imagine if you were in a bookshop and you picked up a book full of huge paragraphs with massive run-on sentences and virtually no capitalisation. You’d probably put it straight back without getting to the end of the first page. And the fact is that you’d likely be right to do so because it probably would have been written by someone stupid, or crazy. Or both.

Bottom line: If you don’t care enough to format your posts properly, no-one else will care enough to read them. And that’ll be your fault, not anybody else’s. And considering we’re on a message board, that rather defeats the object of you being here. If you just love typing so much then get a blog. Hell, just open up an MSWord document and go nuts. I don’t care. Just please don’t post here until you can be bothered to make your posts fit to read. At the end of the day, it’s just the courteous thing to do.

16

Actually, this board has an ignore function, so people CAN do something about it if they choose.

17

I don’t recall the scriptures saying He was actually killed, but He died as His work was finished. A soldier was assigned a task of delivering a death blow, but Jesus already left. It is true that the cross would eventually cause death, but for that matter being conceived and born would eventually lead to death also (with some notiable exceptions, Enoch, Elijha).

18

I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said ‘In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes’, but I think a distinction should be drawn between the certainty of eventual death, and the actual instigator who caused the imminent death.

By your beliefs, I would have thought it was the sins of mankind that did for him. But, perhaps, God is responsible for our sins, so all roads lead to, and from, the mighty one.

19

Welcome to the StraightDope. :slight_smile:

Here you will find a well-educated group of posters with a great deal of knowledge between them. (Have a look at various posts to see this.)

As others have said, all we know about you is what you type and how you type it.
So when you ramble, make unsupported assertions, fail to proof-read your posts and treat us like we are a bunch of fools who need to lectured … then you should not be surprised we don’t take you or your ‘arguments’ seriously. :smack:

Let’s have a look at your initial post:

God did a poor job in leading you here and not warning you about ranting. We like an informed discussion. Our motto is 'Fighting ignorance"!

Why? :confused:

Yes, that’s a cliché.

Following your last sentence: it’s not random and it’s not interesting. :rolleyes:

You are preaching.

Have you ever wondered why you were constantly criticised?

Your posts are too long.
From personal observation, complaining about the length of a post (because it is incoherent) shows the complainer has useful standards.

Educated people will not derive pleasure from badly written posts.

Yes, that’s the definition of stubborn. :smack:
So that could have been left out of your post.

And that is ironic.

But do they like to debate with you?
If not, have you considered why?

This is scary.

Nobody believes ‘man evolved directly from ape’.

If you can’t even get this right, then how are we to trust you on anything?

Sadly I’ve lost interest because of all the problems above.
I hope you’ll look at my points and try to understand what a poor impression you gave of yourself with this first post.

Please feel free to comment on my points, as I enjoy a good debate.

20

DAMMIT! That was good!