1/6/21 insurrection post mortem: How did it happen? What could/should have been done? What should be the response?

Great Debates
41

Thanks for the clarification. But man - the cops/feds seem to historically have had no problem anticipating - and IMO overreacting to - some pretty extreme and unlikely threats. Trump’s supporters have a pretty solid track record of being willing to resort to violence. And many private citizens anticipated this very thing that you suggest the pros couldn’t have imagined.

Not expecting you to be an apologist for the cops, but why we didn’t see a similar display of force as was previously shown IRT other groups…

42

It’s always incompetence though, that’s always the excuse. Why isn’t the Chief of that police department resigning right now? I’ believe that is capitol police, not DC metro. Why is that guy not resigning or fired right now?

43

I’d be lying to you if I said I actually thought I’d come home to watch images of MAGAbots chasing congressmen out of the House and Senate chambers. I knew it was possible but not that likely, and I’m guessing that’s what the Capitol Police were thinking as well. I expected the odd fistfight here and there on the steps of the capitol and around downtown DC but not quite what happened yesterday.

44

Like I said, I fully expected them to try. I thought that the defenses would be adequate to prevent it from happening. I did not expect them to be breached.

45

Oh, I hadn’t thought of that! Clever! I hope that was the actual plan, and not wishful thiniking.

46

Did you expect the BLM folk to crash the capitol? Because SOMEONE apparently thought it possible/likely.

47

Because we expected the police would stop them. I’ve been to demonstrations in Washington. The standard response (even to use peaceful protesters) is to bring out a massive show of force. Horseback police, riot gear, etc. The police yesterday allowed this to happen. The question is why.

48

I completely agree. The Republican party has been one step behind Trump all along. The only time they backed away from Trump was when he tried something that didn’t work out. Trump’s an incompetent criminal and McConnell, Pence, Cruz, and the rest are competent criminals.

49

Exactly. I was a bit worried that they would manage to bring out enough force to overwhelm even a proper response. I was worried that they would bring weapons and start a shooting match with the Capitol police.

I did not expect such a feckless response from the police. I wonder if substantial numbers contracted the “Blue Flu” and called in sick. I also wonder if any of those then showed back up on the other side of the line.

50

No, absolutely not. As I said, I acknowledge there’s bias in policing – pretty much everywhere. The difference is, the Capitol Police wanted to present a show of force against BLM protesters, most likely to intimidate them so as to disrupt lawful protest. They were clearly more aggressive with BLM (and supporting) protesters.

I still don’t think the Capitol Police ever envisioned the Trumpistas storming the Capitol. But that’s what they get for trusting the white man, I guess.

51

Or not trusting the white man, as they did exactly what they said that they were going to do.

52

I don’t understand why you think they couldn’t envision this. MAGA have been saying since the election that this is what they want to do.

They knew the day it was going to happen. There should have been a wall of defenders around the Capitol, no one should have gotten in while business was being conducted.

53

How can we call him incompetent? He won, and stayed in power and fucked everything up and got what he wanted for 4 years, and even now, he can still have the fucking Capitol raided on a whim. This is not losing. This is not an incompetent man. Clearly, he is insane. He is evil. He is criminal. But somehow, he keeps winning.

Jesus, we’ve been laughing at Trump’s incompetence since NH and Iowa in 2016 . . .and yet here we are. Half the reason we are here is we refuse to take him seriously as a threat.

54

Police post pictures asking for assistance in identifying rioters. They couldn’t have arrested them - or at least asked for ID - yesterday?

55

So the whole reason there was going to be an a long day at congress was that all these republicans were going to object/contest the election. Essentially, they were trying to have a coup - they were going to deny that Biden won despite every factual and legal source indicating that it was true, and try to get Trump installed as president anyway.

And then some citizens show up and do the same thing. Disrupt congress and demand that the results of the election got thrown out.

So, now those same people who were, themselves, attempting to discredit the results of the election (with the implicit goal of installing Trump anyway) have to say “oh, it’s outrageous that the citizens that raided the capitol today were trying to do… the exact same thing our stunt was trying to do!”

The media is so fucking wildly incompetent that they’re not putting the pressure on about this. They’re allowing the fucking coup-attempting republicans to denounce the coup-attempting citizens and then fucking go right back to not certifying the election. And we have to pretend that what the citizens did was bad, but what the republicans doing is apparently not that big a deal.

But they’re cut from the same cloth. If the republicans believe that the election is being stolen from them and/or that they need to install Trump despite losing the election - if that’s what the congressmen themselves are saying needs to happen - then the citizens are justified in doing pretty much exactly the same thing.

The reality is, for most of them, the election objection is a stupid stunt, so they don’t want anyone to really act on it. But they can’t just say “oh, no, hey, guys, this little coup attempt we’re doing is just for show, just to stoke your outrage, just so we can tell you that the democratic government is illegitimate and keep you outraged indefinitely. We don’t want you actually acting on the things we’ve been lying to you about and getting you outraged about”

It is absolutely fucking bonkers that we have a president and a congress and most of a political party and a huge echo chamber that are allowed to scream “everything you love is being taken from you! America is being destroyed! You have to fight back!” and then… when they fight back, everyone is suddenly like “oh, no, wait, that’s not what we do in America! You’re a bunch of thugs! We denounce you!”

Fuck this shit. The citizens raiding the capitol was exactly the sort of reaction that their rhetoric is designed to evoke. And they’re still doing it! After this happened, fucking over 100 of them still voted against certifying the election anyway. Nothing was learned. And yet the media is largely compliant in acting like the citizens that raided the capitol were just lone nutjobs or “anarchists” or republicans that got the wrong idea. No, they didn’t get the wrong fucking idea, they got the exact message that was being broadcast to them 24/7 for years. This is what you get when you use apocalyptic rhetoric to motivate your base to support you and tell them that we need to “take our country back” and all the fucking shit you’ve been spewing for years. It’s actually miraculous that the violence you’ve created has been so limited. If people actually fully believed the bullshit you’re spewing them we’d have massive civil war on the streets.

The stupid fucking “liberal media” lie has to be their most effective lie. The “liberal media” is so afraid of being called biased against conservatives that they bend over backwards constantly to try to normalize and portray conservatives in a less shitty light than they deserve.

The “liberal media” is so fucking biased in favor of conservatives in the name of “balance” because conservatives accuse them of bias no matter what. It’s like working the refs in sports. You scream your head off about every call, and the refs start calling them your way just to avoid the criticism. Now you’re committing fouls left and right and the refs are afraid to call you on it lest they appear “biased.”

Stop falling for it, you stupid fucking media. Stop pretending that what they’re doing is normal. Stop doing PR work for conservatives. Stop letting them get away with it. Hold their fucking feet to the fire. Do your fucking job.

I have no idea how anyone can act fucking surprised by this. Have you guys not seen fucking 12+ years of “they’re trying to destroy America and you have to take it back before they take everything you love!!!” rhetoric coming from the conservative echo chamber 24/7 for over a decade?

56

My opinion? My own, solitary, opinion that I realize not everyone is going to share? Trump himself ordered people to come to Washington for that riot - he said “it’s going to be wild” - and anyone with any common sense would know that he intended for the events of yesterday to happen. The plans were publicly known well in advance. The capitol should have been fortified and surrounded by armed security in body armor with automatic rifles and armored vehicles. Anyone and everyone pushing through and attempting entry to the building should have been shot to death.

Either the rules of law have “teeth” or they don’t. The precedent set yesterday means this is likely to happen again during Biden’s administration.

57

It’s what would have happened at the White House. The Capitol yesterday had the VP, the VP elect, the Speaker of the house, and over 500 elected Representatives and Senators. I would hope a less lethal response would have sufficed, but if it didn’t, then yes, they should have been shot. (and before Octopus accuses me of liberal hive hypocrisy, the assholes who stormed the police station in Seattle should have been shot too–if nothing else worked to stop them)

58

What I heard discussed on MSNBC, at some point in the wee hours last night, is that arresting the rioters, at that point, would have been taking officers away from the premises at that point, as those officers would be having to escort the arrestees away from the scene, read them their rights, process them, etc., and the Capitol Police needed everyone they had on hand to do other things.

Whether that’s a legitimate argument, or not, I don’t know (everything I know about law enforcement, I learned on TV), but it’s an interesting point.

59

This was posted in the Coup thread.

# Some among America’s military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup and may have had help from federal law-enforcement officials

Some opinions from security experts that confirm the common sense incredulity at what we saw yesterday - that this narrative of “we didn’t expect this” is surely bullshit. Circumstantially, it’s very hard to believe this could happen without some level of pro-Trump collusion from senior law enforcement or security services.

60

These people have been cosplaying their revolution fantasy for years now. They still haven’t grasped the real consequences. They need to. They think they’re untouchable. If their bullshit is going to be stopped, they need to UNDERSTAND that when they escalate to the point of bodily force, they will be met in kind.

The desired outcome, to me, is for them to try something like this again, catch a bunch of bullets, have an actual body count that drives home the reality of the situation for them, and then say “ok ok guys, we can’t keep doing this…we’re going to keep fighting but now instead of gathering in mobs, we’re going to be lone wolves.” That’s fine with me. Lone wolves never get anything done.

They need to be scared back under their rocks, basically.