1st Annual SDMB International Postal Rifle Shoot

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
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Sorry for not getting into this earlier… got called in at the last moment to help out at another store, and didn’t end up finishing until 4:30am… but anyway, here I am!

This has certainly grown from my oriignal idea (I hadn’t even considered handguns!), but I’m certainly keen to take part!

Here’s what I had in mind:

**Rifle (Military Service)- ** 20 rounds, standing only, at 100 yards, with an original condition (non-sporterised), non-sniper (ie, iron sights only) Military Surplus rifle (Must be C&R Eligible- ie, more than 50 years old or on the ATF’s C&R List)

Rifle (Centrefire)- 20 rounds, standing only, at 100 yards, with any centrefire rifle, scoped or otherwise.

Rifle (Black Powder/Muzzleloader)- 20 shots, standing only, at 100 yards, with any muzzleloading rifle/musket

Rifle (.22/Air Rifle)- 20 rounds, standing only, at 25 yards, with any un-scoped .22 rifle

Pistol (Semi-Auto)- 25 rounds at 15 metres

Pistol (Revolver)- 25 rounds at 15 metres

**Pistol (Cap & Ball)- ** 25 rounds at 15 metres

I figure that the competitions should be Iron Sights Only, except for the Rifle (Centrefire) competition, as pretty much every commercial hunting rifle out there is scoped these days. Ideally, pistols should be unmodified (so no Infinity Raceguns, folks!), but the whole competition is supposed to be light-hearted and fun, so it’s still open to debate.

Ideally, of course, we want as many people as possible to compete, but we’ve got to take local laws and ammo prices into account- for example, I can’t even legally OWN a functioning semi-auto rifle in Australia, and centrefire rifle ammunition costs around AUD$1/rnd (the cheapest I’ve found is military surplus L2A2 7.62x51 NATO at AUD$22/40rnds).

Also, what sort of targets are we going to use? Australian law prohibits shooting at targets which look like people or have a humanoid shape, so it’s probably best to keep the target to competition-style ones- is there a “Standard” 100m rifle target?

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I’ll volunteer a webpage to keep track of rules and post pictures (or whatever).

That’d disqualify the AR15 that Cowgirl Jules prefers, correct? Don’t matter to me, my AR is a shorty and not exactly a tack-driver, but I’ve seen plenty of service rifle matches with AR15, M1 Garand, and 03 Springfields shooting side-by-side.

Are there any benchrest people out there? Anyone interested in 500 yards? (and why am I always posting distance in meters and you’re posting this one in yards? Isn’t that backwards? Us Americans ain’t so good with them furrin rulers)

Handgun shooters, can we group these into one? Trying to run this many different groups might get complicated. Figure out some kind of handicap system maybe? Or should we wait to see how many shooters we get? Or leave it up to Miss Jules?

Yup, I think we should be willing to modify the rules (within reason) to get as many people as possi… Wait, You’re complaining about $17US for 40 rounds of 7.62? WTF? I’m paying $24US for 20 online! Higher at a store, but not surplus I admit.

You know my opinion of this kind of thing… This is a target AFAIC.
NRA rules are pretty specific so they have a good list of target dimensions and stuff. Check out this I like the A9 under “small bore rifle targets” to start the discussion.

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We could always create a Rifle (Self-Loading) class, if there’s enough interest…

Benchrest isn’t target shooting. :wink:

Sorry, I just don’t see the “sport” in bolting your rifle to the table and having the score come down to who can afford the most expensive gun and scope, and spend the most time making finely-tuned handloads.

If it makes you feel any better, all the range markings on my rifles are in Yards, with the two exceptions of my M38 Swedish Mauser and my Ishapore 2A1, both of which are in Metres.

A Cap & Ball isn’t going to be as accurate as a Beretta M92FS, so maybe we could just break it down into Pistols (Cartridge) and Pistols (Cap & Ball)?

Decent .303 British ammunition (the Winchester stuff) is AUD$33/20rnds, whilst the Remington Core-Lokt .303 is between AUD$22-$28/20rnds, depending where you go. .308 Winchester is about the same price, and 6.5x55 Swedish is AUD$18/20rnds.

In short, rifle ammo ain’t all that cheap here. :wink:

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Don’t look to me for handgun stuff; I’ve never done any sort of competition with one, and don’t even own a semi-auto.

I, personally, would like to keep it in the “fun and general” range. I took a look at the NRA’s postal match pages, and there really are a *lot * of specific rules. I’m happy with **Martini Enfield’s ** distances and standing-only requirements. 20 rounds takes my deer rifle out of it, but that doesn’t matter to me anyway. If anyone else has a different quantity in mind, speak up!

I used my AR-15 in a Director of Civilian Marksmanship Program to earn my (former) M1 Garand, so I know it qualifies under those rules; I’m unfamiliar with the scope of the C&R list.

I suggested the end of August as a closing date, but that’s closer than I’d thought. How about September 15th instead, to allow us all to get to the range and for postage and all of that? Oh, and so your scorekeeper doesn’t run on into deer season, at which point she becomes unreliable.

How about a general roll-call of people interested and the calibers/types they want to shoot? That way, we could get a feel for how much we should split the categories down into. Some of you have them mentioned already. I would probably only shoot the .223 AR15, with a possible .22LR open sight. I don’t want to heat up my lightweight deer rifle’s barrel with 20 rounds.

Bob, I concur with your targets, although if we’re going to shoot at 100 yards, let’s pick that one. What can we get at Wal-Mart? :smiley:

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Eh, those guys aren’t normal, for a good time try to hold a half-MOA group with an off the shelf hunting rifle at a quarter mile :smiley:

Sign me up for military/service rifle - 1903 Springfield (30-06, obviously) and Pistol - 1911 .45acp

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There is only one way to have a postal competition – that is shooting postal supervisors, real ones, on a “Hogan’s Alley” type range – for instance, among the back rooms of a post office.

No limit on firepower – grenade launchers welcome!

Those BASTARDS!

Please note I do not endorse the shoooting of postal employees. I am only trying to bring a form of rationality to your proposal. Okay, a really odd form of rationality.

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Actually, I “invented” a great course of fire for a ‘postal’ competition back in college: I went to school in Arizona, and a buddy of mine and I would routinely go plinking in a gulch about a 20 minutes outside of Prescott. One day, I brought a bunch of paper bags from grocery shopping out, and told him to scatter them randomly–he ended up putting most of them on bushes. I never looked to see where he put them, so when he got behind me and yelled “go!”, I walked down the gulch engaging each of the paper bags as I saw 'em. It actually helped me quite a bit this past year at Fort McCoy Wisconsin, as I showed I had a half a clue in the “stop, turn, shoot” crap. :smiley:

Tripler
I like making paper targets Holy.

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Ok everyone - please email Jules, Enfield, or myself if you want to play.

As we get shooters, make decisions, and start shooting, I’ll keep this site updated.

So, we’re proposing 7 different categories for 8 shooters? Howzabout we keep it simple and have open sight rifle, scoped rifle, and handgun?

Know a fella that shoots .22 in competition, I guarantee you that I’ll not cut him a break just because he’s got a tiny little…

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Neither do I, so you’re in good company! :smiley:

I have no idea what the CMP programme involves, but the edited highlights of the C&R List are: Any gun more than 50 years old, or on a list of guns which could be considered “Curios” anyway- guns which might be less than 50 years old, but are collectible all the same. Pretty much anyone with an 03 FFL can fill you in with exactly what’s on the list.

I was going to suggest the end of September, owing to a temporary cashflow shortage which prevents me from getting to the range in the next week or two…

Well, at this stage I’d be competing with either a 7.62x51 calibre Ishapore 2A1 bolt-action rifle, a .303 calibre Lee-Enfield No 4 Mk I* bolt-action rifle (the SMLE is out because it’s technically an SMLE Mk III* (H), and would thus qualify as a “Sniper Rifle” because of the long-range peep sights), or a 6.5x55 M38 Swedish Mauser bolt-action rifle. I’d have to see how much ammunition I can find for the .38, and I might enter the revolver competition as well.

What sort of Deer rifle are you using? I wouldn’t want to go hunting with a rifle that couldn’t handle having 20 rounds put through it in a couple of minutes, unless it was a muzzleloader of some kind…

Question: How am I supposed to get these targets in Australia?

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I have a suggestion. Our honorable judge can make a PDF of his preferred target. We each print that sucker up, and fire away. Those in the far corners of the world can scan it back to him. I can put it on my site, if no one else has one, and post the link here.

I want to fire handgun at 25 meters. (Colt 1911a1, the only gun I own)

Good plan?

Tris

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A standard target like the NRA 100yd small bore rifle should be pretty similar to the international 100 meter small bore rifle. What do you have there in Australia? I’m guessing Target Rifle Australia has some kind of standard for competitions, but I can’t find it on their site.

I was about to make a crack about needing 20 rounds to bring down a deer, but I finally figured out you were probably wondering why Cowgirl Jules can’t just reload a few times. :smack:
Seems to me the John Garand service rifle match gives 10 minutes for 10 shots - even I can reload a couple times in 10 minutes.

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Eh, I guess I’ll get in on this too. Handgun only for me as that is all I own presently (apartment dweller). I’ll be using a Glock 17, and may use my Makarov too if we can submit more than one target per category.

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OOH! You’re on! I’ll dig out my Mak and if I get an embarrassing score I’ll submit my 1911 target :smiley:

Submitted for your approval, two pdf targets here

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With just one minor flaw :wink:

Firstly, your average printer is set up for A4, paper right?

The next time you’re out driving, look for a flyer stuck on the side of a lamp-post 100 yards away. Now, imagine sighting flyer up with an iron-sighted WWII vintage rifle. And then imagine trying to put a bullet through the very centre of it.

You’ll find that the front sight on a Lee-Enfield actually covers the ENTIRE A4 sheet (and then some) at that range…

Great for smallbore rifles, though.

Bob, I’ve never heard of the organisation you linked to- Australia’s main firearms-related sporting/hunting organisation is the Sporting Shooters’ Assosciation of Australia (SSAA).

The problem is, there are lots of 100m targets… how far apart are the rings on the NRA 100m Service Rifle targets?

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That’s perhaps true…but 'twould be fun to see who can do what “out of the box” with their preferred hunting rifle…
My Steyr Forester in .30-06, with a Weaver 3-9x50 scope, with FACTORY Federal Premium ammo will create keyhole groups, hot or cold, from a benchrest. And it has done this from the day I took it home in the box from the gun store.
Of course, as this is my hunting rifle, I want it do always put the bullet where the crosshairs are…

For freehand centerfire? My Sako .243 - open or with scope, depending on the rules that get finalized - would be my choice for entry because I won’t get pounded to bloody hell and back by it for 20 rounds.

Rimfire - Marlin .22mag bolt-action with micro-groove rifling (this is my squirrel, rabbit and groundhog gun) - open sights or scope, again, depending on the rules.

Pistol - 9mm Ruger SP101 REVOLVER - yeah, you heard me - REVOLVER. Uses moon-clips. I can split a twig in half that is floating on river-water at 30 yards with open sights - I figure that’s good enough for target-plinking. :wink:

Yep - good to go… (yeah, we all like to brag, don’t we? - oh, and does powder stipling on the target disqualify?? I would think it would…)

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My rifle shooting has all either been sitting or prone shooting off of a Bulls bag, or now that I’ve moved I imagine I’ll go back to a sandbag or two. Maybe a small bag of rice.

What’s your opinion on that?

(note to self: start practicing standing and shooting.)

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There’s a gulf of difference between benchrest as a shooting discipline (which I’ve outlined my views on), and shooting from a rest (as you described), which I have no problem with- although it’s not my cup of tea at the target range, I have to confess I often use the roof or the bonnet of the ute or 4WD as a rest when I’m out hunting…

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I wouldn’t describe the addition of a rear sandbag as a “gulf”, and I’ve never seen anyone but a gun magazine writer shooting as outlined above… Benchrest as a discipline requires knowing your rifle, your body, your round, and the weather the way that the rest of us know scratching ourselves. Except for a couple of the extremes of the sport, the rifle is sitting on sandbags (or a rest) just like we all use for sight-in. “Rests shall support the front part of a rifle. A rear rest shall support the rear part of a rifle. Neither rest may be attached to the bench, the rifle, or the other. And each shall be moveable independently of the other” also, “no device, addition, contour or dimension on a rifle of any class may coact with mating or reciprocal features of a rest to guide its return to the firing position.”
In other words - nothing is attached to anything.
The hunter and varmint class (BRSA is US, I’ve never belonged to an international group so I don’t know their classes) can be shot with a Remington 700 or even (hunter only) a Ruger No. 1.
Even railguns in the unlimited class aren’t attached to the bench.

HOWEVER - standing, sitting, prone, and benched are totally different and we should choose one for this. Kneeling and sitting are equivalent to each other; but prone, standing, sitting, and benched aren’t.
Then again, this is all for fun, right? I’m way better sitting or benched, but standing is a great equalizer (unless someone has a shooting jacket, those things aren’t fair!)

For the record, some guy measured a CMP target and got this for the B-19 (see my earlier link, B19 is shown under pistol targets)
CMP SPORTER RIFLE TARGET DIMENSIONS
CMP B-19 (White X & 10 rings)
X RING - 7/8"
10 RING - 1-3/4"
9 RING - 3-5/16"
8 RING - 5-3/16"
7 RING - 7-3/16"
6 RING - 8-15/16"
5 RING - 10-3/4"
4 RING - 12-5/16"
3 RING - 14-3/8"
2 RING - 16-3/16"
1 RING - 18"

My question is - what can you get?

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Guys, quit taking this so seriously! This is the internet equivalent of going out to the range with a bunch of buddies and plinking at stuff and then giving a 12-pack to the one with the best score. I doubt that you could combine eight different regulatory agencies and come up with a set of rules that makes sense. I move to accept Bob’s rules as posted on the website, but let’s be flexible about it. If you can’t get that specific target, get one that’s pretty close. Since it’s all honor system anyway, I don’t see anyone using a giant, economy-sized target for scoped rifle. Mocking, remember?

Oh, and the end of September is fine with me too. Whatever!

Martini, I *could * use my deer rifle, but it’s a Remington Model 7 Mountain Rifle in .243, and as such, has a pretty light barrel that heats up quickly, and I just don’t want to put that kind of stress on it. So I won’t. I’ve never had to take more than two shots at a time with it, except for sighting in. If I can’t take a deer within my five-round magazine capacity (although I typically carry it with only four rounds) then I have no business attempting that particular deer.

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Now, if only there was some way to send alcohol through the mail internationally at an affordable price, we’d be set! :smiley:

Excellent… I’ve got a couple of suitable paper targets. Of course, I may need a few… practice targets before I find one I’m happy with. :smiley:

You don’t see many of the light barreled hunting rifles here- the trend seems to be towards the heavy barreled ones. How much does your Mountain Rifle weigh? I imagine it’s a lot more comfortable to carry than a 9.5lb Lee-Enfield!