2 year old raped and murdered

[Ranchoth]

@Zabali_Clawbane

I thought judges could use some discretion to mark a prisoner’s record “Do Not Release”? I know in an Australian murder case this happened. The judge saw to it that the parole board would not be inclined to let him out, ever. Can’t the same be done for him? :eek: I would think that it could be seen as “Society’s Best Interest” to keep him incarcerated until he dies!

We have something like this in California—I forget the exact details, but IIRC, after an inmate serves his time, they can commit him to a state nuthouse (a secure one, not a regular one) pretty indefinitely. (Er…this is mostly for sex offenders and murderers and the like. Guys who are “off” upstairs already. I don’t think they declare bank robbers schizophrenic just so they can keep 'em in a rubber room.)

@alphaboi867

I assume you mean castration with a dull knife and no painkillers followed by a penectomy? :rolleyes: Seriously nobody willing to do (or allow to be done) this to a child merits being called a human being :mad: . The only reason I wouldn’t support executing him is that his suffering would be over too quickly. On the other hand does the UK also have a shortage of transplant organs?

Eh, I’d say strap him to a table and vivisect his brain to see what make him tick. With a thorough, scientific approach and enough test subjects, we might be able to find a way to test for, or cure, pedophilia. (Worst case scenario, we prove that it can’t be attributed to an obvious brain abnormality. Which, in and of itself, would still be valuable information. But we’ll never know unless we check.)

Afterwards…eh, strip out any transplantable guts, and boil down what’s left into synthetic gasoline. (Hey, the liberals always say we should recycle and use alternative fuels more. Everyone wins! )

[Seven]

@Lissa

Not necessarily, for two reasons:

1. Actual forcible rape in prison is less common than the public believes and is taken very seriously by prison staff. (More common is coercive rape, but again, not every man who goes to prison will be a victim of this.)

2. It’s also a mostly a myth that child molesters/child killers are abused by the other inmates*. First of all, other inmates have no way of knowing what crime caused a person to be incarcerated unless the incident was widely publicized or the inmate tells them. Secondly, inmates don’t usually consider themselves Champions of Justice-- they just don’t care, at least, not enough to get themselves into trouble by attacking a child molester. (Exceptions occur, of course, but it’s not a common thing.)
   *Women’s prisons are a different story.

You know this because . . . ?

[Lissa]

@Seven

You know this because . . . ?

There has been a lot of research into this subject recently. This article claims it’s rare in the UK as compared to the US.

Gathering statistics in this area is extremely difficult. First of all, you have the difficulty of getting the victim to come forward, and men have additional stigma attatched to reporting a sexual assault. Secondly, the statistics don’t always take into account whether the encounter was forcible rape or coercive rape.

[Seven]

@Lissa

There has been a lot of research into this subject recently. This article claims it’s rare in the UK as compared to the US.

Gathering statistics in this area is extremely difficult. First of all, you have the difficulty of getting the victim to come forward, and men have additional stigma attatched to reporting a sexual assault. Secondly, the statistics don’t always take into account whether the encounter was forcible rape or coercive rape.

Lissa. You first say

Actual forcible rape in prison is less common than the public believes and is taken very seriously by prison staff. (More common is coercive rape, but again, not every man who goes to prison will be a victim of this.)

I questioned this, in part, and you offered a link to a page on spr.org (Stop Prison Rape). Looking around the site I find this

A recent study of prisons in four Midwestern states found that approximately one in five male inmates reported a pressured or forced sex incident while incarcerated. About one in ten male inmates reported that that they had been raped.

link

One in ten!?

As a side note, it’s not just the inmates one be to be afraid of but the men who work in prisons.

Among women behind bars, young and mentally ill inmates and first-time offenders are particularly vulnerable to sexual assault by male staff.

link

So yes. Getting stats on prison rape will be hard when it’s the guards doing some of the raping. Of course the guards take is seriously.

Can I suggest something? Don’t let this thread turn into another short novel of you taking out of your ass and everyone else handing it to you. You really need to just stay out of these threads and admit you aren’t the knowledge base of all things prisons.

My wife is a nurse. That doesn’t mean I’m an authority in threads related to delivering babies and starting IVs.

[Lissa]

@Seven

One in ten!?

That statistic is somewhat in question.

Explaining why is somewhat tricky, because it can sound very insensitive on the surface. These studies are sometimes worded in a way which can be a bit misleading. Sometimes, an inmate is asked if they had sexual contact while they were in prison and whether they wanted to. If the inmate answers no, it’s considered a rape. However, some men answering this question will say that they didn’t want to have sexual contact even though they consented at the time because they’re afraid of being thought of as gay.

Inmates sometimes enter relationships for practical reasons: they’re afraid and want “protection” or they have debts they need to pay, or they want drugs, etc. If asked, many of these inmates will say that they didn’t want sexual contact and would be counted by some studies as being a rape victim even though they chose to use sex as a sort of currency.

I’m not denying that rape does occur in prisons and that it’s a serious problem which needs even more effort on the part of the CJS to combat, but the public perception is that it happens far more frequently than it actually does. Even if we accept the 1-in-10 figure as accurate, that’s still quite a bit lower than the public misconception that nearly every man is raped in prison.

As a side note, it’s not just the inmates one be to be afraid of but the men who work in prisons. So yes. Getting stats on prison rape will be hard when it’s the guards doing some of the raping. Of course the guards take is seriously.

Well, you’ve got to understand that any contact between a staff member and an inmate is (technically) considered a sexual assault even if it was 100% consensual.

Inmates are “wards of the state”, and in some sense, they’re regarded as “children.” The balance of power is hugely tilted in favor of the employee. In a way, it’s considered that inmates cannot consent to having sex with a staff member because of it, just the same way a pre-teen girl cannot consent even if she says “yes.”

Can I suggest something? Don’t let this thread turn into another short novel of you taking out of your ass and everyone else handing it to you. You really need to just stay out of these threads and admit you aren’t the knowledge base of all things prisons.

I never claimed to be an expert. However, I do a lot of reading on this subject, and I think I have some useful knowledge to contribute.

[Seven]

@Lissa

I never claimed to be an expert. However, I do a lot of reading on this subject, and I think I have some useful knowledge to contribute.

Great. Everyone needs a fetish. If reading about prison rape is yours, more power to you.

The problem is, like early in this thread, or this three page train-wreck, your “useful knowledge” doesn’t always apply.
Do us a favour and for just 30 days avoid posting in threads where you begin with “my hubby works in a prison and…”

[Lissa]

@Seven

Great. Everyone needs a fetish. If reading about prison rape is yours, more power to you.

Why be so mean about it? I haven’t been mean to you.

It’s not a fetish-- I’m fascinated by human social sturcture and the one that develops inisde of prisons is very interesting to me.

The problem is, like early in this thread, or this three page train-wreck, your “useful knowledge” doesn’t always apply.

The reason I left that thread was not because I couldn’t defend my position. I left (as I always do) when the focus shifted not to the content of my posts but personal attacks. Perhaps some people get off being venemous to total strangers-- I do not.

Do us a favour and for just 30 days avoid posting in threads where you begin with “my hubby works in a prison and…”

I didn’t.

[lisacurl]

Lissa, just a suggestion which you can take or leave as you choose, but you might consider how you present your information. I’ve noticed that you tend to make what amounts to a declaration of knowledge about prisons in some posts that, I admit and I’m sure you recall from another thread, gets my back up. If it was phrased in terms of what you recall reading or if you could cite the studies or reports you’re referencing, I’d be less likely to jump to the conclusion that you’re just making a sweeping generalization based on your understanding of your husband’s experience in the particular prison where he works. Granted, that’s my issue more than yours, but like I said, just an observation.

I know I’ve often wanted to point out that prisons in more enlightened states might have lower victimization of prisoners overall than more backwards areas, such as my home state, which has a long sordid history of looking the other way when prisoners are abused. Things have improved in the last decade, but I just came across a memo online this week while researching something completely unrelated that outlined grievances which occured at juvenile facilities in Louisiana in 1998 and it sickened me.

[wring]

@Lissa

I didn’t.

No, you merely wandered into yet another crime/police/prison thread and made unfound assertions with that same air of “I know” that accompanies many of your posts t hat folks poke at.

like, for example -

@Lissa

The recent trend toward “flat sentencing” has removed a lot of judicial discretion. Whereas a judge used to be able to give a wide span (10 to 25 years, say) and then leave whether he was released up to the parole boards, flat sentencing has eliminated that. A person is sentenced to a certain number of years and is released thereafter, often with no sort of post-release control. (Sex offenders, of course, have to register-- I’m speaking of parole officers.)

following it up with cites about how stuff is in Ohio, and Conneticutt. Of course since the fucking incident occured in the UK, this has fuck all to do with it (and, parenthetically, the fact that two states have gone towards flat sentencing doesn’t bolster your statement above anyhow, since there’s like 48 other states and a federal system as well to factor in. But I digress).

you eventually acknowledge that you don’t know anyting about the judicial system in question, but it obviously didn’t stop you from posting info as if you did.

and wrt: frequency of prison rape, you seem to take the position that it’s much more likely that the self reporting is biased to overstate the problem, whereas I would suspect the opposite. Men (since we’re talking prison rape, males far outnumber females in the system, though we’re making strides! you go girl. ) for a variety of reasons may be more reluctant to admit rape. and, while you acknowledge that inmates in prison cannot legally consent to sex w/guards, you seem oddly disinclined to acknowledge the same level of lack of real consent when you posit this:

@Lissa

Inmates sometimes enter relationships for practical reasons: they’re afraid and want “protection” or they have debts they need to pay, or they want drugs, etc. If asked, many of these inmates will say that they didn’t want sexual contact and would be counted by some studies as being a rape victim even though they chose to use sex as a sort of currency

Entering into a sexual relation so the other person will protect you, you’re afraid etc - just how the fuck is that in any real sense consensual ? wouldn’t that be exactly the same thing as a person who sleeps w/their supervisor 'cause they’re afraid of being fired? or, say, to pull an example out of the air at random, an inmate sleeping with a guard for protection or whatever?

Seriously. You would go a long damn way to avoiding those nasty comments you say you don’t like if you would in cases like this, at the very least say “I don’t know how it would work in the UK, my limited experience here in this state it would go like this”.

but no, instead you do what you do here, in answering a post about ‘why in this case this happened’ you talk about trends in other jurisdiction as if it had something to do with it. and when questioned, you post cites for those other jurisdictions, then finally admit that gosh darn, you **don’t ** know about that other jurisdicition, sorry for the confusion.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

@Lissa

@Seven

Do us a favour and for just 30 days avoid posting in threads where you begin with “my hubby works in a prison and…”

I didn’t.

Lissa, I like you, but you really rather did in this thread. Please bear with me as I explain. It started with this exchange.

@Me

I thought judges could use some discretion to mark a prisoner’s record “Do Not Release”? I know in an Australian murder case this happened. The judge saw to it that the parole board would not be inclined to let him out, ever. Can’t the same be done for him? :eek: I would think that it could be seen as “Society’s Best Interest” to keep him incarcerated until he dies!

@Lissa

@Zabali_Clawbane

I thought judges could use some discretion to mark a prisoner’s record “Do Not Release”?

No, I don’t believe so.

The recent trend toward “flat sentencing” has removed a lot of judicial discretion. Whereas a judge used to be able to give a wide span (10 to 25 years, say) and then leave whether he was released up to the parole boards, flat sentencing has eliminated that. A person is sentenced to a certain number of years and is released thereafter, often with no sort of post-release control. (Sex offenders, of course, have to register-- I’m speaking of parole officers.)

Right there you pounced on a conversational subject you are fond of, and begin speaking as though you know all the ins and outs in this case. When someone tries to point out that you don’t know in this case, this is the exchange.

@El Cid Viscoso

@Lissa

(Sex offenders, of course, have to register-- I’m speaking of parole officers.)

You know this because . . . ?

To which you replied very factually with:

@Lissa

Here’s an article regarding Ohio’s flat-time sentencing laws. This one is about “truth in sentencing” laws in Connecticut. (“Truth in sentencing” and “flat time” are two different concepts, but both are relevant to this issue.)

The latter explains how the parole boards are being phased out:

This page (PDF) has great information and statistics on state sentencing laws:

<snip>As for sex offender registration, you can search state by state here.

I figured you might not get what he was trying to say there, so I posted:

@Me

You’re speaking of American prison systems, not the U.K. There might be a difference, given the events I outlined in Australia. Australia’s prison system is closer to the U.K.'s prison system than ours is.

To which you responded:

@Lissa

You’re quite right. I know nothing about the UK or Austrailia’s prison systems. I apologize if anyone was confused.

You really should have dropped it right there. Instead you continued on. I don’t think you realize how irritating it is to others when you do that. It’s better to let it be and let people cool off and grumble a bit, instead of jumping right back in on a slightly different tangent that has to do with your accumulated knowledge of how American prison’s work. With all due respect, I know it’s hard for you to resist, but please do work on it?

[Lissa]

@wring

No, you merely wandered into yet another crime/police/prison thread and made unfound assertions with that same air of “I know” that accompanies many of your posts t hat folks poke at.

I find it interesting that the exact same kind of posts (say, the dozens I’ve written on dog behavior) on other topics don’t garner such a hostile response.

like, for example -
following it up with cites about how stuff is in Ohio, and Conneticutt. Of course since the fucking incident occured in the UK, this has fuck all to do with it

I admitted my mistake and apologized for it.

(and, parenthetically, the fact that two states have gone towards flat sentencing doesn’t bolster your statement above anyhow, since there’s like 48 other states and a federal system as well to factor in. But I digress).
.

If you’d like, I can post some sites which list the other states which have mandatory minimums and “flat time” laws. I just picked two at random to give an idea of what these kinds of laws were like.

you eventually acknowledge that you don’t know anyting about the judicial system in question, but it obviously didn’t stop you from posting info as if you did.

“Eventually” isn’t exactly a fair way of putting it since I replied as soon as someone pointed out that this was the UK we were talking about. I’m sorry that I forgot that.

and wrt: frequency of prison rape, you seem to take the position that it’s much more likely that the self reporting is biased to overstate the problem, whereas I would suspect the opposite.

No, I’m not necessarily saying that it’s overstated. I was saying that the methods used for collecting data are somewhat flawed and the results can be misunderstood for that reason. In a sense, it’s sort of like that oft-repeated quote that one in four women are the victims of sexual assualt. The veracity of that claim is greatly dependant on the definition of “sexual assault”.

Entering into a sexual relation so the other person will protect you, you’re afraid etc - just how the fuck is that in any real sense consensual ? wouldn’t that be exactly the same thing as a person who sleeps w/their supervisor 'cause they’re afraid of being fired? or, say, to pull an example out of the air at random, an inmate sleeping with a guard for protection or whatever?

That statement was meant to refer to inmate-inmate relations, not staff-inmate relations.

It’s somewhat difficult to explain without a lengthy tome on the culture inside prisons. Understand that I wasn’t meaning the kind of protection as in: “Sleep with me or I’ll beat you up”, but the fear and confusion that many young men have when entering the prison system. These kinds of relationships are more of a manipulation than an actual coersion; i.e. the young man forms a relationship with an older, long-time inmate and relies on that inmate to provide protection from bullies and whatnot-- not necessarily physcial threats. When asked about it later on a survey, the young man may say that yes, he had sexual contact, and no, he didn’t really want to and this sort of thing could be counted as an incident of prison rape.

When this issue was examined extensively in the US, resulting in PREA, many researchers learned that the effects of a total institution, such as a prison, require a re-examination of the definition of consent. When individuals enter a total institution, the lose many freedoms and, more importantly, their sense of personal security. Thus, individuals in this situation are far more susceptible to manipulation, regardless of whether or not there is an overt threat. The commonly held assertion, created by the media and public misconception, is that prison rape is always of the forceful nature. A significant portion of prison rape/sexual assault never has an element of violence, or threat thereof.

Please understand, this is still sexual assault, in my opinion. However, these factors are also one of the major causes for the underreporting of rape throughout the years in prisons. It is also one of the major reasons why many prison staff do not consider a particular case a sexual assault/rape when it really is.

[wring]

There’s none so blind as those who refuse to see.

don’t be surprised when folks continue to act hostilly when you do this. Several folks were much nicer in their approach to you about it.
don’t get defensive - stop fucking doing it

and please, of for the love of all that’s holy, do not post your ‘tome’ about prisoner relations.

you are, simply put, not the only poster here w/any connection to knowledge about prisoners. We have, in addition to you, the wife of some one who works in a prison, we have actual prison guards, lawyers who’ve worked w/facilities, a doctor inside a facility, cops, and well, me, who’s worked w/offenders for nearly 30 years (14 of which were inside a correctional center), and, I"m sure many others.

[Lissa]

@wring

There’s none so blind as those who refuse to see.

don’t be surprised when folks continue to act hostilly when you do this. Several folks were much nicer in their approach to you about it.
don’t get defensive - stop fucking doing it

and please, of for the love of all that’s holy, do not post your ‘tome’ about prisoner relations.

you are, simply put, not the only poster here w/any connection to knowledge about prisoners. We have, in addition to you, the wife of some one who works in a prison, we have actual prison guards, lawyers who’ve worked w/facilities, a doctor inside a facility, cops, and well, me, who’s worked w/offenders for nearly 30 years (14 of which were inside a correctional center), and, I"m sure many others.

And I look forward to hearing their perspectives on it. This is a very interesting subject.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Lissa - it’s really fucking obnoxious and teeth-gratingly annoying when you post about prision shit, particularly when you cite your husband as your source, even when you’re correct.

There - is that clear enough?

[Zabali_Clawbane]

So, about this “Uncle” and what he did. Does he have a lawyer/solicitor yet? Have the funeral arrangements been finalized? I can’t imagine what her family are going through. I hope they have grief counseling.

[Lissa]

@alice_in_wonderland

Lissa - it’s really fucking obnoxious and teeth-gratingly annoying when you post about prision shit, particularly when you cite your husband as your source, even when you’re correct.

There - is that clear enough?

Yes, and I respect that opinion and beg you to confirm that in this thread I never once did so because of that exact same sentiment expressed earlier.

However, I also realize that this is indeed a hijack and so I agree with Zabali bringing it back to topic.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@Lissa

Yes, and I respect that opinion and beg you to confirm that in this thread I never once did so because of that exact same sentiment expressed earlier.

However, I also realize that this is indeed a hijack and so I agree with Zabali bringing it back to topic.

No, you talked about prison shit all over the place. Prison shit which has no bearing on the OP, whatsoever. Just because you didn’t cite your hubby this time makes it no less annoying.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Any word on if the flower fund drive was a success? I heard they were trying to get enough money for flowers for her funeral? So sad.

[casdave]

Its seems odd to me, folk have made almost definative comments, and yet here I am, a UK poster who works with prisoners, in a UK prison,all day - every single working day, and who also happened to have live in the area concerned until well into my 30s, this has recieved little acknowledgement.

It also happens that I have close relatives who live in the area concerned, and I will get to know what has happened. Seacroft and Gipton are that type of estate.

The prison where I work is the local medium security prison for the area concerned, and unsurprisingly, there are plenty of individuals in here who live on the Gipton estate, and although this hasn’t been a big topic of conversation within this place yet, once this particular person is brought to trial and sentenced, that will change.

Prisoners are prisoners (in the case of true judical sentencing) but the UK perspective on prisons is rather differant to the US,

Australia is closer to our system, but specifics such as sentencing policy, parole, sex offender handling will be differant for many reasons as we have been affected by the European Convention on Human Rights, which means that we have to do things in a differant way to achieve the results we used to get before it came into force.

Sexual relations between prisoners in the UK in the medium and lower category prisons are actually very low, and its only in certain higher security prisons that it routinely occurs, rape is extremely rare in UK prisons, no doubt someone will bring up a cite that claims to show otherwise, without understanding the numbers of prisoner and percentages involved.

UK prison terms for the most part are shorter than US ones, we have a lower percentage of whole life prison terms, and generally speaking, its rare to find drug users doing over 8 years, even the higher level dealers tend to get under 10 years, its usually the very high tier dealers that get the big sentences.

Homosexuality in UK prisons does not have the same dynamic driving it, prisoners will usually be out in less than 4 years, the prospect of 20 or 30 year jail terms changes their persepective somewhat.

It’s fair to say that most UK prisoners, the large majority, are uneasy about homosexuality, plenty are openly hostile, and a number regard them not far above sex offenders.

From what I have been able to understand about US prisons, sexual relationships between prisoners is not anything like as widespread as the US media whould have the US public believe, however it does exist one way or another, but in any case, from where I see it, the UK prisoner outlook on sexual relations is differant enough to make comparisons irrelevant.

I am not the oracle, but, I would be surprised if anyone on this board is closer to prisons and the locality, and the people who live in the area than I am.

[wring]

@casdave

Its seems odd to me, folk have made almost definative comments, and yet here I am, a UK poster who works with prisoners, in a UK prison,all day - every single working day, and who also happened to have live in the area concerned until well into my 30s, this has recieved little acknowledgement.
.

FWIW, You were who I was thinking of when I said “prison guard” . and I agree/