2WD drive SUVs, icy winters, and resale

Factual Questions
1

Hi. My wife bought a Jeep Liberty yesterday. We live in the South, and it is difficult to find a 4WD version with all of the features we like. Also, we have absolutely no use of it as we live in a city which rarely ices and we know how to drive in rain. So we got the ordinary rear wheel drive version.

The rub is that we may move (someday, hopefully within 3 or 4 years) to the Northeast (Boston or New York, nowhere rural) or somewhere else where we will deal with icy conditions (Chicago, slight chance of Denver, St. Louis or the Pacific Northwest). We will sell my little FWD subcompact and take the bigger new car. My friend was over (he is from Long Island) and he was saying it was a big mistake not to buy a 4WD version, both because it is nearly impossible to drive and to sell the 2WD version in the Northeast.

A few points. I don’t believe someone in the NE who has the option keeps their SUV in 4WD most of the winter. Doing that would probably ruin a differential or drivetrain relatively quickly. He claimed as much (“My dad never takes his SUV out of 4WD during the winter…”), but he can be full of shit. Anybody care to refute or confirm this?

Second, I don’t know how much benefit having true 4WD will be on icy, probably sanded or salted pavement. AWD, most certainly. My cousin in Denver has a Subaru and never stops talking about what a lifesaver it is (especially since he moved from Texas with a RWD Ford Ranger light pickup, next to suicidal to drive that thing on ice I’m told). I’m a pretty good driver but I make no bones that I am not experienced on ice. Will I survive a New York winter in a rear-wheel drive SUV? How about my wife and putative children?

Third, I understand the market doesn’t necessarily follow logic, but does his claim that it is next-to-impossible to sell a 2WD SUV in the NE hold water? I can understand the 4WD version being inflated above market value, but I can’t believe that the 2WD versions are like unsellable in a good proportion of the country.

Since we have a few years, it isn’t really concerning me that much – it is easy to sell a car and buy an AWD/4WD one that will serve us better. But it is always nice to know that my friend is full of shit and to call him on it.

2

I figure Buffalo NY is about as bad as it gets. Googling “buffalo ny auto sales 2wd” finds plenty of SUVs, so I think you’re pretty safe.

I personally grew up in West Virginia where we got a decent amount of snow, nowhere near as bad as Buffalo but a lot worse than where I am now in southern PA. I learned to get around just fine in a 2WD. I was living in Baltimore in the bizzard of 93 or whenever it was (somewhere around then) and I was out tooling around all over the place without any trouble. My father in law forgot to get fire logs, and I love to drive in really deep snow (it’s a fun challenge), so I volunteered to go out and had a blast. It was me and a bunch of other pickup trucks and SUVs and very little else out there. My little 2WD nissan truck got around just fine. It’s more about knowing how to handle the snow than how many wheels of traction you got.

As for ice, 4WD just means you have 2 more wheels spinning. The biggest mistake people make is thinking that 4WD will get them through anything.

The best advice I can give you is that when you move into snow country, find yourself a nice big empty parking lot after a good snowfall, and drive around intentionally turning too fast, etc. until you get a feel for how to handle the vehicle and how to get out of skids, etc. The most important thing to learn is that sudden changes make you lose traction. Learn not to accelerate or brake quickly, or you’re going to slide.

One trick I always do in the snow is that I use the stick shift to slow down. This way if the wheels start to slide, it’s the rear wheels that will slide and the front wheels will still have traction, so you can still steer and you’ll drag the back of the vehicle like a sled. This only works with stick shift, rear wheel 2WD vehicles. If you use your brakes, most of the braking is done by the front wheels, and you don’t want your steering wheels to be the ones that are sliding if you can help it.

3

Lived in the upper midwest all my life - Detroit and Chicago areas, mostly, lots of snow and ice.

I have never owned a 4-wheel drive vehicle, and don’t plan to.

For that matter, I’ve never owned a stick-shift - due to my husband’s disability we’re limited strictly to automatics. I still manage to get around all winter long. (You CAN downshift an automatic. It’s not quite the same as a manual, but it does work)

It’s been over 20 years since I was so stuck in snow I needed help to get out. Hey, I pass a LOT of 4WD SUV’s in ditches every winter.

More than a 4WD, or AWD, what you need to do it learn to drive on snow and ice. The suggestion above to practice on an empty parking lot is a good idea - that’s how I was taught. But a lot of it is experience. I know the depth of snow my car can handle, and the depth my pickup can handle. Both 2WD automatics. I’ve been on ice, I’ve been in skids, and I know how to handle them - I don’t even have to think about it at this point, I just do it. I’m familar enough with winter weather to be able to anticipate icy conditions. I can look at a road and judge pretty well what hazards there might be. Some of this you’ll only learn from getting out there and doing it.

Your friend is at least 50% full of crap. In an urban area you 4WD/AWD and/or manual transmissions are not necessary. They also cost more to buy and to maintain. Anyone who drives 4WD engaged all the times on urban roads is either nuts, or lazy, or both - and they’re putting unnecessary wear on their vehicle.

Remember two very important things about SUV’s: they take longer to stop than a car does, and they are more likely to tip. No manual transmission and no 4WD can possibly reduce your stopping distance, especially on slick roads. The heavier/faster the vehicle the longer it takes to stop. Just plain old physics.

And about Ford Rangers on ice - I’ve been driving one for 5 years here in the snowbelt. Sliding on ice in one can be a hair-raising experience, but it’s far from suicidal IF you know how to drive.

Unless you live at the top/bottom of a big hill, or drive off-road, or live in a rural area where snowplows don’t go a 2WD car is adequate for 98% of winter days. The other 2% - it’s called a “snow day” and unless you’re an ER doctor or someone else who really can not miss work because it really is a matter of life or death you’re better off staying home on a day like that.

4

4WD drive vehicles are more popular in general on the resale market for the same reason that V-8 Mustangs are more popular than their V-6 counterparts: perceived value.

People think, often erroneously, that 4WD will allow them to do things that 2WD will not (although that is sometimes the case), or they assume that 4WD is intrinsically better because there’s two more wheels doing the driving. It’s like leather vs. cloth seats, or a slammin’ stereo system compared to the cheesy factory stock one. More extra features=better.

Your resale will probably be down a bit compared to the 4WD version, but remember that those people also paid more for their vehicles and will pay more in gas and maintenance costs. I suspect it all evens out in the end.

5

edwino, if you move the family up north and you or your wife are concerned about winter driving, contact a driver’s ed school. I’m sure they’d be willing to give you a short course on how to handle winter roads and proper safety for your area, or at least put you in touch with someone who can do that. You might find the piece of mind and confidence worth the money.

6

Central Colorado montain resident here. I think you would have a real hard time selling a 2wd SUV here. Or anywhere in Colorado. Or a 2wd pick up. Just my opinion, but I would never buy one. It’s kind of hard to tell with IFS, but I bet 90% of pick-ups and SUV’s are 4x4.

This really isn’t a problem with the new systems. My wife has a 02 Grand Jeep that she keeps in FULL TIME 4x all winter. This does not lock the differential. PART TIME 4x on this vehicle does.

Since we need to use 4x4 every day in the winter (6 months long) to get up our road and driveway, this works best for her. I have an older SUV and take it in and out of 4x4 every day. Unless the roads dictate that I leave it in 4x4 which happens a lot.

7

Thanks all. We will face most of these mountains when we come to them. Since I am going to be a doctor (probably not an ER one, though), we will probably get some ice driving instruction. Or at least spend a lot of time in parking lots when it snows/ices over. We are both reasonable drivers so I hope it won’t be too much of a problem, although we of course won’t underestimate our inexperience. Of course, I will probably be heavily dependent on public transportation to get to work, so with all luck it will be even less of an issue.

As I say, this thread is mostly about refuting my friend when the issue comes up again (and it will – he likes to harp on these things which he thinks he knows better).

8

enipla
Are you in a city or the actual mountains? I can understand the mountains, but Denver from my memory is pretty flat. Do you think you would use 4WD in Denver? As I say, I am mostly concerned about cities (with big academic medical centers…)

9

This is simply not true.

4x4 does help and can make a HUGE difference.

Look at it this way. Your car is on ice. You’re stuck and need to get up a slight incline. Would you rather have 4 people push you or 2?

Every day I drive over the continental divide. To get out on the highway I exit from a snowy, ice covered county road to a 2 lane state highway. The highway also may be snow and ice covered, and uphill for me to go to work.

4x4 will not help you stop. But it will allow you to accelerate and ‘merge’ into traffic.

I almost started a pit thread about this. Two weekends ago, in Denver (we where visiting), the roads got bad. Real real bad. A few people in 2wd couldn’t make it up slight hills. They backed up traffic terribly. It took us 2 hours to go 40 miles.

10

edwino
I am in the mountains. My house is at 11,200 feet.

I go down to Denver about every 6 weeks or so. I lived there for 15 years (my Mom is in Denver). If you look at my previous post, Denver does have a few hills. It’s mostly very flat, but if the weather turns ugly, it dosn’t take much.

People have commented on ‘snow days’. Where I live, we simply don’t get them. 2 feet of snow won’t even make me late to work.

11

In 1996 my father moved to Denver. He bought a 2 wheel drive truck. Full size Dodge. Two wheel drive.

My brother and I begged him to get a 4x4. We offered to pay the difference. He wouldn’t have it.

My Mom’s Honda can usually get up my drive in the winter. That is when I have plowed and have everything as clear as possible.

My Dad’s truck? Not a chance. We don’t even try anymore.

12

A related piece of advice: If you live in snow country, no matter what sort of vehicle you drive, buy a decent set of snow tires! You wouldn’t try to walk down an icy sidewalk in your sandals, so why would you drive a car down an icy road on tires optimized for rain? Some people, unfortunately, think 4WD/AWD means tires aren’t so important, but if your tires can’t get a decent grip, your brakes cannot help you.

13

I don’t know about the Liberty, but I drove a Wrangler for many years. The problem with the Wrangler is that it, like the Liberty, has a short wheelbase and is very light in the rear end. Since it’s a rear-wheel drive vehicle, this is a serious problem on slippery surfaces. Without FWD, I would have been out of luck.

The problem with Jeep is that the Wrangler transmission hasn’t changed in about 50 years. AWD cars are much more reliable than FWD, as they are designed to kick into AWD when there is slip. The Jeep FWD system is not really designed to run full time, except for the Grand Cherokee.

14

I’ll second the snow tires. Being the owner of a 4x4 Durango and having lived in the Northeast, the tires will come in more handy than the 4x4 in the long run. The ability to resell the SUV will probably depend more on gas prices than the type of drive you have. The 4x4 can be a life saver but I’ve found those times few and far between, to the point where I could have just skipped the extra cost and stayed home.

The first winter I lived up there, I drove in the snow using a 2wd FWD Plymouth Acclaim. Using a little common sense made all the difference and I found at some points I had people following me like I knew what I was doing. I found this odd since I had a Louisiana license plate, figuring everyone would think I was just some crazy redneck. So it’s much more about using common sense than anything else.

As mentioned several times, the 4x4 won’t do jack for stopping. When you hit a patch of ice, it’s all about remaining calm. I figure most people end up in ditches because they panic and slam on the break, not a smart move.
If you’re the handy type and can afford it, one idea I found interesting was to keep a set of snow tires(on rims of course) in your garage. When the time comes, switch the tires. When winter is over, switch them back. That way, you can probably keep two good sets of tires for the life of the vehicle and always be prepared.

15

Yep. I couldn’t agree more. I replace my tires at about 50% tread wear.

16

Edwino, a lot depends on where, exactly, you move to. Colorado, where enipla lives, is very different than the Chicago area where I live. Colorado is mountains, where a 4WD/AWD makes sense. I don’t take my pickup into the Appalacians in winter, much less to the Rockies. Chicago, though, is some of the flattest real estate on Earth.

Enipla mentions that 2 feet of snow doesn’t stop anyone in Colorado - but here in Chicago we can get that much in just a couple hours mixed with gale-force winds. Even if you scrape the snow off the streets it just blows right back onto the road. Drifts can build up to six or eight feet, and that’s just not passible.

It’s also a good idea to carry spare blankets in the car, along with various other gear if you’re anywhere outside a big city. It’s rare, but it is possible to become stranded during a really bad storm. I carry spare gloves in the car, snow brushes and scrapers, extra washer fluid. There’s little tricks, like throwing a 50lb bag of salt or two in the back of a lightweight vehicles to improve traction, using your floormats to help you over a slick spot, and some other tricks that can be very useful.

If you’re in Chicago and depending on mass transit, you need a sturdy pair of waterproof boots. Think practical, not fashionable. Dress in layers. You’ll want to unzip on the bus or train to keep from getting overheated, but want enough warm clothing to keep from getting chilled while standing at bus-stops or train platforms.

Jumper cables are a good thing. Car and truck batteries do not hold a charge as well in cold weather and sooner or later we all need a jump. Keep a flashlight in the car, too - the winter nights are longer up north even when the sky is clear.

Watch that tire inflation - it will change with a significant change in temperature and you want to keep the pressure in the maximum traction range.

Try to keep at least a 1/2 tank of gas in your vehicle - in a bad storm it can take hours to get home and you don’t want to run out of gas in the cold and dark when there’s a storm.

17

Having your rear wheels lock up is exactly the opposite of what you want to happen. That’s how you provoke oversteer and spin out. Consider if you’re going in a straight line and cause the rears to lock but not the fronts. You’re okay more or less as long as you’re going straight. However since your fronts haven’t locked up, you can still steer so you do. Now your front end will start to turn but your back end, which is locked up continues to go the direction it was going and you start to spin.

Note how some pickup trucks only have ABS on the rear. This is the reason. Well, that and it’s cheaper.

In general, it’s easier for drivers to deal with understeer (fronts lock up, you keep going straight) than oversteer (rears lock up, you spin).

18

To be fair, I didn’t say anyone. Folks that live in the mountains are use to lots of snow. No big deal really.

I used to live in Illinoise. I know what you are talking about. We don’t get much driffting in the mountains.

Good advice. I keep my gators (basically high tech outdoor spats) handy for deep snow.

I’ve never noticed this, and think that it is pretty insignificant. I may be wrong, but I sure don’t run for the air gage when the temperature drops to 20 below.

Very good advice. Once I was in stalled traffic for about 3 hours. Luckily, I had enough gas and a book.

19

> I’ve never noticed this, and think that it is pretty insignificant. I may
> be wrong, but I sure don’t run for the air gage when the temperature drops to 20 below.

Two of the five flat tires I’ve had in my driving career have been a direct result of very cold weather. The guy at the tire store says that the rubber can pull away from the rim when it gets very cold if the tire isn’t inflated properly.

20

Here in New England, it’s notorious that in bad weather 4WD vehicles go off the road at a greater rate than 2WD vehicles.

It’s not that they are inherently inferior in slippery conditions. It’s that their advantage isn’t nearly what their optimistic owners have been led to believe, and so they are driven with less skill and care than are called for.