I think this would be more true if the average Doper thought the average American was about on the same intellectual level as the average Doper.
We don’t. We’re well-aware that we’re a fuckton smarter than the “average American” here, and most of what’s going on is bemoaning the idea that people could be so clueless and cruel.
FYI, the President of the United States is one of those people who thinks there’s a “ban.”
No, I’m stating a fact e.g. Nate Silver’s rating.
You haven’t stated any concerns about methodology except it comes from the Internet. Fwiw, you come from the internet as well, and IPSOS has an A- rating for its internet methodology from Silver over 49 polls.
You might want to consider an internet dictionary and the term ‘denial’.
He can think whatever he wants, it still isn’t a ban.
Excuse me while I cringe a little.
What? It’s true. The average American may or may not accept evolution, global warming, or that electing Trump was a really bad idea. And according to this poll, the average American supports this Muslim ban. The average doper does not hold any of these absolutely awful ideas.
Oh, for fuck’s sake. Can we go with “A ban on completely random people chosen completely at random through total randomness randomly, 99% of which happen to me Muslim (completely at random), because they’re randomly determined to be a risk to the United States even though none of them have ever attacked us, and (purely randomly) leaving out those people who come from countries that actually have attacked us, random random random?” Would that work?
Or are you going to claim the “it’s not a ban because we might change our mind and let them in 90 days from now, because we need that long to determine whether or not we should ban them, which we could have done without banning them, of course, since they didn’t attack us in the last 90 days, or the 90 before that, or the 90 before that…?”
'Cause those are harder to say. And not true, but I know that’s not a concern for the Right these days. I say we go with “Muslim Ban” for simplicity. You can put scare quotes around it if it makes you feel better.
You presumably don’t think the world cares about ‘the Straight Dope’. Nor for the purpose of looking at the state of the USA do I, or Reuters, or IPSOS, or the world.
The Dope is an echo chamber. That’s the only and entire point - this poll sheds a little more light on that reality.
A view that effectively says ‘yeah, but we’re better than everyone else’ doesn’t help much.
And of course, our regular immigration policies don’t come anywhere near to doing any such thing. The fact that you try to portray this as a binary choice between Trump’s draconian and stupidly executed travel ban and a completely imaginary scenario of indiscriminate entry for all shows how fatally weak your position is.
[QUOTE=Starving Artist]
They’re being vetted for the simple and common sense reason that terrorists who have designs on killing as many American citizens as they can are attempting to smuggle themselves in
[/quote]
It’s possible to review entry vetting procedures, and even temporarily suspend the issuance of new visas if that’s considered necessary, without imposing a sudden and immediate travel ban that arbitrarily invalidates official travel permissions that were already legally obtained, in many cases by people actually in transit to the US.
Of all the idiotic ways to make our nation look unstable and untrustworthy, nothing really says “we have no idea what we’re doing” like a chaotic surprise attempt to arbitrarily take back official permissions we already issued. “Ha-ha, sucker, you thought your properly-obtained legal and valid official visa/green card meant you could trust we meant what we said? Fooled you! It’s nothing but waste paper unless and until we arbitrarily decide to make it valid again!” The suspicion and contempt for the US that this one moronic act is going to provoke among business partners, allies, and ordinary citizens worldwide is going to take literally decades to disperse.
In the meantime, maybe you conservatives could take a break from obsessing over potential violent radical extremists among Muslim immigrants to start cleaning your house of your own violent radical “alt-right” extremists who keep burning down and shooting up mosques? Just a suggestion. :dubious:
Because just going by actual statistical incidence of threat, it appears that these days the average American is a hell of a lot safer around an Iranian immigrant than around a white Trump enthusiast.
Ahem, it’s not a ban. It could more properly be called a moratorium.
Nor is it awful. Freely allowing terrorists to enter the country and kill American citizens is awful.
This si the same debate that’s being had in about 5 threads. Please dn’t do it here, as well.
This poll is interesting for a number of reasons. For example, Trump lost the popular vote, but this major campaign promise is supported by a clear majority.
That and several other points might be discussed …
It’s not a ban.
Actually Trump knew exactly what he was doing. As he said (and as was obvious to those of us who can think straight), to have announced said moratorium a week ahead of time could well have given rise to determined efforts to insert Islamic terrorists into our midst beforehand. It was a very difficult thing for those involved to have to contend with and I sympathize very much with their plight, but to claim the shutdown was impulsive and the result of Trump not knowing what he was doing is simply not correct. You may disagree with what he did and how he did it, but here where we’re supposed to be fighting ignorance it does no one any good to be jumping to erroneous conclusions as to why and how it happened.
Thank you so much. Perhaps you might cite the vast number of mosques that have been so attacked and list the number of people killed vs. the number of Islamic terror attacks in countries all over the world and the number killed in those.
This may be, but the average Iranian immigrant would be even safer not to come within striking distance when Trump ‘enthusiasts’ are set upon by the peace, love and tolerance crowd.
Perhaps you could instead chide those whose remarks made it necessary for me to engage in some ignorance fighting in this thread then. I didn’t just barge in to state my case for no good reason. Factually erroneous comments were being made here and it shouldn’t be incumbent on me to let them lie unchallenged just because similar discussions are going on elsewhere. Having said that I’ll be happy to bow out on the subject provided that you agree to police the accuracy of allegations made here with the same vigor you’ve displayed in attempting to police my corrections of them.
Actually, I’d say having a visa or green card and being detained at the airport anyways, with the threat of being sent back because of one’s nationality or the place one decided to visit is pretty fucking awful. Particularly when it involves people who risked their lives to work with us, and who now are stuck in hostile territory. Fighting ignorance? Well fight my ignorance - I’m ignorant as to how this decree has fucking anything to do with fighting terrorism. Perhaps in another thread. Feel free to point the way.
Yeah good point. You need to resettle and protect your collaborators. Its just good policy, need to encourage the ones who you might need in the future.
Actually paying the reward money lavishly promised to collaborators might help build up even more trust.
Money does not really help you once your cheesed off countrymen get their hands on you once the Yankees leave.
Still waiting for you to explain why you think this action is “surely illegal”.
Oh for fucks sake. Why does every political discussion on here have to degenerate into an argument about semantics? It seems like conservatives are only interested in discussing labels rather than substance. I can’t tell if it’s a deliberate tactic meant to derail conversation, or if it’s simply how their minds work.
And there’s a simple solution to that (as was obvious to those of us who can think straight). You announce that starting immediately, no new visas will be issued for 90 days, but existing visas will be honored. I doubt that there are a bunch of visa holding terrorists sitting on their asses waiting for a visa moratorium so that they can quickly rush in.
A clear majority? Is that the 49% of poll respondents who “strongly” or “somewhat” support this?