911 Conspiracy theories and Global Warming

Great Debates
1

Hi all. I’ve just spent the past three days watching a movie called “Zeitgiest” and then reading a 450+ post thread over at the James Randi forum that basically kicks the crap out of this movie.

The whole thing started with a message posted on a local forum promoting the ideas within this movie and the person who posted the message has taken it upon himself to not only propagate the ideas contained in the movie, but to expand on them and promote his views on youtube.

I basically ignored his thread and ideas but when he posted that “we” were all idiots and we should be out “marching in the streets” in protest of…well you know, the whole NWO thing I got rather irritated and posted that maybe we have more insight into these issues than he does…

And then it started…

I’m not one who wants to waste my time posting a bazillion links and try to convince this guy that there is a vast difference between fact and opinion. I realise the futility of this tack, and after all, technically I’m posting on his “turf” and he does have some support whereas I have none.

So I thought I’d try another tack, one I’ve never seen before and although I find it hard to believe, I may just have come up with this myself.

My plan is to ask said conspiracy theorist if he believes global warming is indeed the threat we’ve all been led to believe. My hope is that he’ll answer yes to this question, prompting me to ask him “why?”

Hopefully he’ll respond citing all the studies done on this issue, leading me to pose the question…

If you believe all those peer reviewed studies on GW then why do steadfastly refuse to believe even one of the peer reviewed studies done on 9/11 ?

To put it another way…" why do you thing hundreds ( thousands ? ) of scientists and engineers are right on GW but not 9/11 ?

My reason for making this post is to see what Dopers think of my proposed tack on this issue and whether you feel if this will work or not. Yes, I know if he comes back with the idea that GW is a farce, then I’m back to square 1 and I’ll probably abandon the issue all together as I’ve seen just how futile it is to try and convince conspiracy theorists using facts.

2

My gut reaction is that you’re trying to piss up a rope: messy and futile.

I can’t claim to have much experience with trying to convert CTs, but my impression is that they will gleefully attack, or ignore, anything that disagrees with their pet theory, and cherry pick their data for supporting it.

I’d expect him, if he does accept GW (a possibly vain hope) to suggest that the gov’t has no reason to invent GW data, but it’s got a huge vested interest in suppressing the truth about 9/11.

IOW, don’t expect any rationality he may have on other subjects to be transferable to his CT.

3

Ah, see, you’ve missed the important difference. Some scientists are frauds and liars, out to get rich and famous with their crackpot ideas and fearmongering. Some scientists are genuinely interested in their work, pioneers in their field.

The 9/11 conspiracy guys are just able to tell which is which, is all. That it seems that they consider all scientists on their side great men and those on the other corrupt is merely coincidence.

Seriously, there are some people who can’t be convinced. The best thing to do is just say “Ok, i’m interested in your views. Persuade me you’re right”. Put the onus on them; any shout of closed-mindedness or ignorance won’t really work if you’re happily reading through their interesting information.

4

OtakuLoki…I don’t have much experience trying to convert CTers either, ( I’ve only really dabbled in it ) but I’ve seen other people try to do it, and I’m convinced it’s rather futile, hence my wanting to take a stance based more on belief, to see if that works.

I hadn’t thought about the role of government when I came up with the idea, but I do see your point. Another problem I see, stemming from your post, is an organisation like the IPCC is an international organisation where, with 9/11 we’re dealing with only the US government.

I’m thinking that I could make the argument that since the basis of the CT’s motivations is a fear of a world government ( at heart ) that 9/11 and other acts of terrorism eg, Madrid, London, would require complicity with “other” national governments then 9/11 would have to be just one part of a “global” conspiracy.

Revenant Threshold…I hadn’t thought of separating scientists into acceptable and unacceptable…damn. I tried the "just how big do you think the payroll needed to pull off an operation like 9/11 would be, and accompanied it with an article from a website called Pointless Waste of Time…only to be hit with something called “Scenario 404” ( which proposes a very small payroll ) however, the idea of “corrupt” scientists does bring us back to a larger payroll, possibly shooting holes in the 404 theory.

The problem with the “persuade my you’re right” approach, is all this guy posts is either regurgitated CT stuff from the usual sources or he posts his own “ideas” based on those same sources ( those youtube videos I mentioned earlier ) Before long, I found myself drowning in garbage, and any attempts to refute it with facts like debunking sites, were only met with the typical cover up mentality.

I’ve judged this guy to be a true believer, and I’m unconvinced that talking about facts will work, and I’ll also admit that, I may be well out of my league in trying to convince this guy to see another view.

It’s just that when I talk to friends about 9/11 there seems to be a common idea that this is indeed a conspiracy ( brought on no doubt by distaste for the Bush administration ) however they don’t profess much knowledge on the subject other than “some video on the internet” or rumour etc…

Compared to most people I know IRL, I’m an expert on the subject but when I go on a site like James Randi’s I realise just how much of a Newbie I really am. but still it annoys me that not only are there people out there promoting this stuff (amateurs I mean, not the pros like A. Jones ) but that people are actually believing it without doing any of their own research on the topic.

5

Re: WTC CT in general. I saw this last night:

6

Johnny. L.A…I’ve been very very tempted to drop off a copy of the DSM-IV on the doorstep of the guy I’m talking about but at this stage of the game I’m not willing to write him off as a nutcase.

He has suggested it himself though, by his talk of the “crazies” when I mention he mentions underground news sources and people who may not even exist, like Scorcha Faal. He used it in the context of the crazies are usually thought of as being wrong ( or crazy ) until, ultimately they’re proven right.

I’m also reluctant to go down that road with him because, as I mentioned upthread, he’s local. Maybe I’m just being paranoid but I really question the wisdom of insulting a possible nutcase when I know that he has enough information about me to track me down. I’d just go silent on the issue before going down that road.

7

Clearly, the people who recognize that the WTC/Pentagon attacks were the work of the Zionist Occupational Government are also aware that Anthropogenic Global Warming is being used as a red herring to distract us from the reality of the conspiracies. It all started when the Queen of England, in her attempt to control the world drug trade, began ordering U.S. cities to put fluoride in the water. JFK’s efforts to suppress that illegal interference by Britain in U.S. municipal activities led to Queen Elizabeth calling on her close personal friend, Fidel Castro, and asking that a hit be ordered on JFK. Unfortunately, by the time the hit was carried out, JFK had already gotten the space program rolling and they had to divert the wasted funds from that doomed project into creating an elaborate hoax that pretended that the U.S. actually was able to send men to the moon. Since that money had initially been earmarked to develop alternative fuels that were never created, OPEC was able to use their control of petroleum to dictate that the U.S. abandon South Vietnam. Unfortunately, that meant that the oil reserves that we were going to develop off the shores of Vietnam remain untapped, leaving OPEC still in control of the world economy. In order to prevent the U.S. from developing other alternative oil reserves, the Saudi Wahabbists arranged for the Ayatollah Khomeini to take over Iran, thus encouraging Saddam Hussein to start a war with Iran that kept both Iraqi and Iranian oil off the world markets. Meanwhile the Zionists that controlled the Kremlin attempted to take advantage of the situation by having Afghanistan handed over to the Soviets, but the Afghanis were able to get rid of the Russians while the Wahabbist agent Osama bin Laden arranged for Wahabbists to take over Afghanistan. Foiled in that attempt, the Zionists then arranged for the WTC/Pentagon attacks and blamed bin Laden to get the U.S. to reclaim Afghanistan from the Wahabbists. Unfortunately, Putin was able to edge out the Zionists who controlled the Kremlin, so the plot to secure Russian petroleum by piping it across Afghanistan failed. As a last ditch effort to stop the Wahabbists, the Z.O.G. is promoting Anthropogenic Global Warming as a scare tactic to get us to stop using petroleum, thus depriving the Wahabbists of critical funds. Meanwhile, Queen Elizabeth has been socking away the proceeds from her artificially raised North Sea oil profits to provide a hedge on the global drug trade in case it collapses, even though the U.S. War on Drugs will probably keep drug prices artificially high for the foreseeable future…

If you’re going to explain a conspiracy, explain all of it.

8

Thanks tomndebb…

Do you mind if i embellish that a little by substituting one of the “Zionists” for shape shifting lizard people from planet Yog, add in the use of contrails/chemtrails to do whatever today’s most popular theory has “them” doing to us. Toss in the idea of the Security and Prosperity Partnership being used to form a North American Union that’s bound to merge with the E.U. and eventually turning us into mindless consumer worker robots ?

9

Ahh, now I understand why the government can successfully collect income tax from all the sheeple even though there’s no law requiring them to pay. Thanks tomndebb.