A Crisis of Unbelief or Can I Be A Christian Without the Bible?

Great Debates
1

First, let me state that this is not a hypothetical situation with me as the star. This is a sincere question with me as the querent. It’s in GD because I just have a feeling that, despite any wishes to the contrary, it would end up there anyway.

This is mostly a question for the Christians on the Boards, but I have no problem with others replying with their own advice and such. I would hope to keep this from becoming a Pit thread or a major debate over Christianity vs. other religions vs. heretical Christianity, but I can’t keep anyone from posting anything, so I’ll just let my wishes be known. That said…

As some of you know, I’m a gay man, an agnostic, former Catholic. I’ve been various things as far as faith goes in the past 10 years, including pagan, atheist, agnostic, and “apathist,” as I called it. In 10 years, I’ve come to the conclusion that my own leadership has gotten my life absolutely nowhere. So I’ve been contemplating putting Jesus into the CEO’s office…except for one thing.

I find the God of much of the Bible to be pretty much a disgusting, power-hungry, intolerant, murderous, nasty, warmongering, favoritist bastard. Up to the point where Jesus comes into the picture, it just strikes me that God was based on some Canaanite tribal deity whose only concern was the Israelites.

For that reason, I’m wondering if there’s really so much wrong with just allowing this Jesus person into my life (or heart…although I may have problems promising that right at first)…and pretending the Yahweh guy was just made up by the Israelites? I like Jesus (well, mostly…John’s version seems kind of full of himself). I don’t like the Yahweh/Jehovah/YHVH person at all.

Again, I want to emphasize that this is a sincere question, though I unfortunately developed a somewhat sarcastic tone above. I really would like to at least explore this Jesus connection, but I just do not really want to deal with the other one.

Would I just end up being a Christian heretic?

jayjay

2

FWIW, Marcion (an early Christian heretic) believed that YHWH was Satan. Some heretics elaborated this into a belief that Satan wanted to entrap us into a system in which we would bow and scrape to him and he would make all sorts of rules we would follow. Jesus struck the first blow against this scheme by convincing Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge, giving her personal enlightenment: once she knew the difference between good and evil, she no longer had to blindly follow Satan’s arbitrary dictates.

Fast forward a bit, and Jesus comes to earth again, in human rather than snake form.* He wants to make a revolutionary advance in his scheme to get people following real morality instead of “divine command,” “just-following-orders” hypocrisy, so Satan tries to stop him by appearing to him in the desert. Satan offers, among other things, to make Jesus an earthly king if he bows to him, which makes a lot of sense, figuring that Satan is coming from the standpoint of someone who wants to control people and fit everyone into a bureaucracy with lots of rules.

Anyway, it’s not entirely Biblical, but Marcion says that’s because little bits and pieces about “This is my Son” were inserted by Satanists who corrupted the texts.

My own take on it is that if you need to believe in Jesus in order to get your life in order, go right ahead. Who are you trying to impress? Fundies? Why do you need anyone’s approval for your religion? If you have what you consider to be a personal relatonship with something that you interpret as being Jesus, and your life is better as a result, I wouldn’t sweat over trying to make that fit in with the scriptures of genocidal slaveholders.

-Ben

  • Remember,too, that the snake, able to shed its skin, is a traditional symbol of resurrection.
3

Go for it, Jayjay. For what it’s worth, technically, I’m Christian, but I believe that no one religion can possibly be true, so I think it’s all just different signs God sends us.

We could start our own religion!

4

Thanks for reminding me about Marcionism, Ben. I’d forgotten about that particular take on it.

And I’m not really trying to impress anyone. I’m trying to iron out my own thoughts on this with the advice and views of a bunch of people whom I mostly respect greatly. I’ve been chewing on this on my own for a week or two now and haven’t really gotten anywhere with it. I’m afraid to do something that might, in the end, transform me radically…but I need that radical transformation to get myself moving because my natural inclinations are “inert” and “bump on a log”.

jayjay

5

hey there Jayjay, I’d suggest that for a good example of religion read the book of James. There’s a good little set of standards in there. I’d also say go for it. What have you got to lose?

6

Good old Marcion, the arch-heretic! I knew he’d be showing up in a thread one of these days – never thought it would be Ben who brought him up, though! :slight_smile:

Jayjay, there is absolutely nothing wrong with dealing with Jesus on a one-on-one relationship, except for the support and guidance you will miss and the blind alleys you’ll explore as a result.

A lot of the more “liberal” protestant churches don’t get hot-and-bothered about Biblical matters. My own Episcopal Church and the Methodists vary all over the place, but in general they and the United Church of Christ are focused on social action and personal spiritual growth rather than the force-feeding of dogma. (Many of them, particularly the UCC, are “welcoming congregations” affirming gay people – which I’m sure is a matter of interest to you. On that same topic, the Metropolitan Community Churches are specifically oriented to the gay community, founded by and for gay people and others who have been marginalized by prejudice.) You might also want to look into the UU folks – though UU doctrine resembles Yog-Sothoth in a number of ways. :wink:

E-mail me or PM me through the Pizza Parlor, and we can talk more if you like. :slight_smile:

7

Jayjay,

You seem to want to reject the Bible while still keeping the Jesus of the Bible. The problem I see with this is that the vast majority of scholars have concluded that the “real Jesus” bears little resemblence to the Biblical Jesus. Now, if you wish to disagree with this position, or if you don’t mind worshipping someone who is only very loosely “based on a true story,” go for it.

8

And now a small hijack:

Ahh, this reminds me of a book I once read. Stephen Brust, To Reign in Hell.

9

Did you actually read the OT?:slight_smile:

As for my opinion, sure you can have belief in Jesus without the bible. The bible is merely a history IMHO, its nothing more. Being a christan heretic doesen’t mean that you are wrong.

10

I must apologize for phrasing it so poorly. What I meant was something along the lines of, “What do you care what other people think?” I wouldn’t worry about being a heretic, and I wouldn’t worry about whether the Bible supports your position, so long as you are true to your own experience.

Let me add another note that might make my ideas here clear:

I remember talking to a Christian who said he didn’t believe Jesus was resurrected, and maybe he didn’t believe Jesus was a historical figure. He also considered himself to be an agnostic. I asked him why he was a Christian, and he replied that there was a greater reality, and having been raised as a Christian he was most familiar with that technique of exploring that reality, even though various matters of objective fact (like the Resurrection, or God being a conscious entity) may have been mistaken.

Or to take an example from William James’ The Varieties of Religious Experience, a lot of people will hallucinate about a presence being in the room with them. One blind man, blind from birth, reported, during a session with his doctor, that a paper-thin man in a gray pinstriped suit had slipped under the door and floated along the floor until he came to rest under a sofa. When asked if he had seen this man, he replied, no, he didn’t see him, and in fact he had no idea what grey looked like, but he somehow sensed that a man with those qualities was there. In other cases, the hallucination is less detailed, but more powerful: people feel a presence which they associate with great good and peace, or with great evil and turmoil. In the former cases many people interpret the presence as being the presence of God, and they are very happy to be able to draw on that presence for support, because of the feeling of inner peace it gives them.

There’s also an SF novel in which the protagonist has a split personality. One personality can pick locks, while the other cannot, so in times of trouble the lock-picking personality is brought into play. In the course of the novel, the protagonist learns to integrate his personalities so that he can use the lock-picking ability he had all along.

If you ask me, you are in touch with something that could transform your life by helping you overcome your own inertia. My own opinion is that thing is a powerful part of your own self, although others would interpret it as Jesus, or YHWH, or Allah (whom you’ve mistaken for Jesus,) or whatever. The fact is that you seem to feel most comfortable addressing that thing as Jesus, and interpreting it in terms of Jesus. So I’d say go ahead, talk to your own personal Jesus on His and your own terms, and don’t worry about whether He’s the same Jesus that appears to everyone else. It suffices that He appears to you.

But that’s just my highly opinionated two cents…

-Ben

11

Au contraire, I find the heretics to be more meaningful than Protestantism could ever be. Particularly Johannes Scotus Erigena.

-Ben

12

Jayjay,

You can’t be right. No one ever has been right. Why should more be expected of you than of any other child of the world? Love Jesus. Love each soul you meet. Love yourself. If you are completely wrong you will have dedicated your life to creating love under a delusion. Don’t worry about the goal, the journey itself will be enough.

I have faith in Him, I encourage you to have faith as well. But don’t try to figure it all out. Figuring it out is folly. You can tell just by looking at it that love is better than hate. So choose love. Heaven and eternity can be the surprise at the end.

Tris

13

Amusingly enough, I just had a similar conversation with a dear friend on AIM. I realized that I can prepare and rationalize how I’m going to integrate a faith in Jesus with my current beliefs and attitudes about various issues, but if I do invite Him in, He’s gonna do what He’s gonna do, and all the preparing and rationalizing in the world isn’t going to make a bit of difference to who I’ll actually be when it happens.

They weren’t kidding when they talked about “agonies of the soul”, were they?

I find that I’m very afraid…I’m afraid that who I am, the parts of me that I like very much, will change completely. I’m afraid of losing myself.

This is going to be a bit harder a decision than I thought it was going to be…but at least I realize that now. I’m not just picking a new philosophy here…if there is anything to the Jesus thing, I’d be beginning a new life. And, at the moment, I feel a little like I’m grieving for the old me…

I need to think more…

jayjay

14

The path of faith is filled with little surprises!

Wait until you realize that He is God. After that fact filters by the intellect, you are in for a big surprise! Somehow you never really quite understand how much you don’t understand what the word God means when it is just an intellectual concept. It cuts down on the questions, I’ll tell you, when it turns out to be SOMEONE YOU KNOW!

Tris (Shivering. . .)

15

Or maybe it really was the presence of “God” and not a hallucination at all.

16

Believe what you want, call yourself what you will. Don’t let a few people define a term like “Christian”

Jesus lived a fine life, and you could choose much worse role models. Although I suppose its a little bit of an intellectual challenge to accept him as the Son of God and then reject that God.

I suspect you’d have to hit the right UU congregation to feel a connection - some are significantly more Christian, others pride themselves on their lack of Christian - although almost any will make you feel welcome and validate whatever you choose to believe it (“I worship this rock in my pocket.” “Oh, do you find that fulfilling? And can I get you another cup of coffee?”). But its someplace to hang out on Sunday morning. If you live in an area with several UU churches, many have web sites and post sermons. I’d start with liberal Christian religions - Maybe Quakers if you can find them.

Amedeus - Thanks for bringing up Steve Brust, I now have to go ritually cleanse myself.

17

JayJay:

I see my very self in you. I might not be a gay man, but that is a trivial difference between us. I love you, and He loves you just as you are. Do not worry about giving up any part of yourself. That is like worrying about giving up a dollar in exchange for everything you ever treasured. Your walk with Him will be the discovery of your whole self.

Like you, I cherry pick through the scriptures compiled by men as I look for truth. Not everything compiled by men is truth. But truth is there to be found in places, and stands out like the shining sun for those who seek it.

If you find the Bible a stumbling block, at least for now, I recommend that you avoid it, and read instead another work of inspiration, written by a poet fairly recently. You don’t have to buy anything, the whole work is online. God go with you in your search for truth.

(If nothing else, it will provide a way to pass the time when the SD board slows to a crawl.) :wink:

Jesus the Son of Man by Kahlil Gibran

Dangerosa:

My wife and I are Quakers. :slight_smile:

18

I’m not a Christian. I’m an Orthodox Jew, so to me the “Old Testament” is the testament. So naturally, I’m somewhat taken aback by the kind of attitudes you seem to have read in the OT. As I’m sure you can imagine, that’s not the way I grew up learning it at all.

Before you dismiss it totally, would you perhaps consider running your issues with the OT past someone with a Jewish perspective? Do you live in an area with a sizable Jewish population or at least a “Chabad” house? Please don’t take this as witnessing; instead, as a Christian, I ask you to bear in mind that that is the perspective with which the founder of Christianity himself saw the OT, so if he turned out, in your opinion, to be an OK guy, perhaps there’s something there.

Hundreds of generations of Jews have taught, learned and transmitted the Torah with love for the G-d described therein. Before dismissing him as murderous and hateful, I’d urge you to seek the opposite perspective from those who believe it.

19

Hmmm. Better watch the ol’ grammar there, Chaim. :wink:

Seriously, though, your reasoning makes sense. Who would more admire the Father than His own Son?

20

Believing Christian heterosexual here. :slight_smile:

Personally, I don’t get all that hung up on the Bible. I do not see it as the end-all, be-all of my faith, but instead as an often helpful guide or an occasionally inspirational complement.

I see the Bible as people telling history and the stories of Jesus as best they could in their time. I find those who are insanely fervent over every little word of the Bible, and see it as the absolute, literal word of God, to be book-worshippers, not Christians.

That OT that you seem to be troubled by, jayjay, was simply people thousands of years ago, expressing what they believed in the context of the way they felt they were supposed to believe it. Not all that different from what you’re trying to do now. IMHO, that’s the way it’s supposed to work.

I’m reading a book by Thomas Cahill right now called “Desire of the Everlasting Hills,” talking about the world before, during, and after Jesus, from a largely populist and historical context. He provides great perspective on why many things are laid out in the Bible the way they are. You might find it worthwhile.