Agree. It’s amazing how many hits you can get if you just keep swinging.
By the way, in my mind there is no question that this board has a lot of very sharp people on it.
Have to agree with Stoid on this. Intelligence ain’t chit without a quality of determination and vision.
I’d also like to point out that SAT scores are worthless as for determing intelligence or intellectual ability. All the SAT means is you are good at taking multiple choice tests and have been taught some basic stuff. Example: I scored 300 points higher than either our class valedictorian and saluditorian, yet both of them had a 4.0 to my measly 3.5, understood and applied concepts learned far quicker than I could, were devouring calculus while I was struggling with trig, and were nicer people to boot. They were, I believe, far more intelligent than I was. I was just good at taking tests and was a far better BSer than they are (which is a pretty valuable skill, I’ve found). Also, I’m a pretty good reader, which I’ve found has come in handy.
Who cares? Just enjoy the company.
As the others said, ‘genius’ is undervalued if all it means is that you have an IQ over 140. I would be willing to bet that a significant percentage of SDMB posters are in that range.
Remember, the average IQ may be 100, but that’s partially because there are equal numbers of people below that number as above it. Just being on the internet probably chops off a large majority of the people with IQ’s below 100, leaving the average for the internet population significantly higher.
My guess is that if you could measure the IQ of internet users around the world, it would probably be in the 110 range.
Of those users, the subset using the SDMB is undoubtedly of even higher intelligence. I wouldn’t be surprised if the *average IQ of SDMB posters was closer to 120 than 100.
So set 120 as your new baseline, and draw a bell curve from that. That will get you closer to the number of ‘geniuses’ on the SDMB. If ‘genius’ is typically defined as being 2 standard deviations (about 2.5% of the population), then perhaps it’s more like 1 standard deviation from the SDMB average, or about 15% of the population, assuming a normal distribution of users centered around an IQ of 120 or so.
That figure sounds high to me, but that could simply be because the numerical definition of ‘genius’ doesn’t match our interpretation of what ‘genius’ is.
But maybe there ARE lots of geniuses around here. After all, if we are continually comparing ourselves to a baseline of people with an IQ of 120, then being 140 may not seem all that ‘smart’. But consider this: If the average person stopped in here (say, someone who graduated high school with slightly below average grades and then went to work in sales or construction or something), he might think that pretty much everyone around here is too bleemin’ smart for their own good.
After all, I know a LOT of people who have only vague notions of history, politics, and science, and have marginal skills in logical thinking. To people like that, we all probably seem pretty smart.
Oh, and I think we should define the ‘SDMB’ a little better, because my guess would be that the average intelligence in GD is significantly higher than IMHO or Cafe Society, just because of the self-selection effect.
I should clarify my last paragraph lest I insult all the sales or construction workers around here. What I should have said was, “Someone who graduates high school with below average marks, and then goes into sales or construction and finds that they have no interest in intellectual matters like reading and posting on message boards because they aren’t smart enough”.
I obtained a BS in Chemistry. I took the GRE’s. I scored second highest in our class, about 85(I don’t remember the exact number). The highest score of chemists in our class was about 89. She was an absolutily brilliant, compulsive, fanatic. She is probably a highly paid person today. Either that, or she is in a padded cell somewhere.
I never was the second-best chemist in our class. I was probably in the bottom half. I flunked out of grad school the first semester. But I knew how to take a test. It was a skill that serves me well. I can amaze people with my bullshit. NOt that all I say is bullshit. Just that I know what works*
My etymological rantings on the board are based on my library, not things I make up. So don’t go there.
Numbers lie.
The only thing an IQ test measures is an ability to take an IQ test.
When I was in grade school all I wanted to do was read. I read a high level but my spelling and math were so bad they wanted to put me on the short bus. My academic career was not exactly stellar.
My brother and I took the test for mesa about when we were 20 and 21, many years ago. Somehow we both scored high enough to join.
I went to my first meeting full of excitement. I could not wait to discuss great thoughts and show everyone how smart I was.
The introduction packet to Mensa used to send you a little yellow map pin so when you went to a gathering at say a restaurant or bar you could recognize your fellow smart people.
When I showed up wearing my proud little pin the first Mensan I ever met said “well I haven seen on of those stupid pins in a while”. Needless to say it started my evening off just fine. I stayed just long enough to get the opinion the gathering had all the trappings of a low budget star Trek convention.
I just wanted to be a part of something new and I ran into a clique of fairly annoying people.
I know all local groups are not like this, and I have been to a couple of great RGs and annual gatherings, but is still goes to show we “smart people” just seem to test well.
It does not make us bright or pleasant.
We have to work on it like everyone else.
I certainly believe that the people on these boards have a higher average intelligence than a random sample of people would, since unintelligent people usually are not much for debate (most likely because they get backed into a corner during an argument). In addition to that, these boards are known for intelligent users. I do not know how each of you came to find these boards, but I was informed that the Straight Dope Great Debates forum was a very good place to find intelligent people to debate with. I was informed of this after I complained to a friend that all the boards I knew of were rampant with unintelligent arguments and personal attacks. There are fewer of both at the Straight Dope, but personal attacks still creep up frequently. Granted, the tendency to resort to personal attacks has less to do with intelligence (or lack there of) than it has to do with not having a personality for debate (many people I know simply cannot debate anything without getting angry).
As for intelligent people doing poorly in school, I have a theory on the social portion of that. This theory does not explain why an intelligent person would fail math, but does explain why an intelligent person might have no friends.
Intelligence does not help people find and keep friends, wisdom does. Intelligence is the capacity to learn, the ability to solve complex problems, etc… Wisdom is the ability to make good judgments. If you stuff an intelligent person into a room with 3 locked doors, he will probably have little trouble finding a way to unlock the doors in order to escape. A wise person, on the other hand, will pick the correct exit door on the first try. The intelligent person saw how the locks were built and found the easiest way to open them. The wise person knew it was probably best to open the door without the dead bodies in front of it.
The point is intelligence and wisdom are different and do not always come hand in hand. People generally do not like to be shown up by others. If someone consistently gets the best grade in the class, people are inclined to not like that person for it. An intelligent person may be proud of his accomplishment and let everyone know how well he did. This spreads the seeds of resentment.
Now, if the same intelligent person were also wise, he/she would rapidly discover that people do not seem to be happy when they discover they got a lower score. This wise individual would learn not to show off his/her above average intelligence, but would keep it more or less to himself/herself.
The reason why some intelligent people fit in and others do not is the result of wisdom. A wise person knows when to act intelligent (such as outsmarting a jerk that approached his group of friends and started insulting them) and when not to act intelligent. Everything, including intelligence, has a time and place. Those people that never learn when to act intelligent and when to blend in are the ones that are social outcasts. This is my theory anyway.
I’m curious to know which books these are, Humble Servant. I can and will cite you several non-fiction books in which there are children who are doing extraordinary things at very young ages. Child prodigies do exist although they are rarer than one might think when reading the I Was A Seriously Smart Child What Was Reading In My Crib threads which pop up here regularly 
FWIW I wouldn’t consider a child severely gifted until they passed the 180 mark.
I discovered this message board after frequenting another board for about a year. That board folded, and we all scattered to other boards. A “regular” from my old board (a well-liked young woman) knew I was now frequenting the SDMB, and told me, “Oh, the Straight Dope. I registered there, but those people are so smart! I am afraid to say anything!” Bless her heart. I always thought this woman was smart enough, and was a little surprised that she was intimidated by the SDMB. But some people are.
I have taken many online IQ tests, and my scores vary wildly. I am going to take a guess and say that it’s probably 120 - 125. I am never going to be a candidate for Mensa, but I’m “above average”. That’s kinda what I figured anyway.
I was never a great student in school, though, but it wasn’t a terrible struggle, either. But I can’t say I’ve stagnated since then. I’ve taught myself various skills and have become engrossed in many interests. No, I’m not making big bucks, but I do feel proud of some of the things I’ve been motivated enough to learn. I’m satisfied being merely “above average”; I don’t aspire to be a genius. That isn’t as important to me as my “go getter” attitude (well, I sometimes have that attitude) and my enthusiasm to learn new things. Frankly, I do judge other people this way too: What have they done with their genius? Are they all talk, or are they doing something with their gifts and intelligence?
I remember debating with another poster (one who, if memory serves, bragged of being a genius) who was ragging on me for not using a computer with his preferred OS. (No, no Mac/PC platform wars here, please, it’s not why I brought this up.) This little genius was full of contempt for the computer I used, saying that only “kids” used that kind of computer. But when I asked him what actual work he DID with his (apparently suprerior) computer, he was only able to cite a few small, feeble projects. I, on the other hand, have done quite a bit with my computer, including several large web sites with extensive content. So, who cares if I was using an “inferior” computer or not? I was DOING a lot more with what I had, and is that not the bottom line?
As far as the intelligence on this board, yes, it definitely is above the norm. I am spoiled by this board; there is a higher quality of discussion here. I know I’m not the smartest, but I’m not such a dim bulb that I am totally lost either. To be honest, I feel proud that I can even survive on this board—some of you people are scary. I am always telling people IRL that I learn so much from everyone here—I’ve never encountered anything like it anywhere else. But does that mean that I think there are a bunch of amazingly great geniuses here? No. But definitely above average.
Tested in Kingergarten at 136, subsequent tests tend to back that up.
I never took my SATs.
I did miserably in school. Today, I blame this more on my lack of effort (compounded by parents that really could care less what happened to me as long as I didn’t go to jail) than anything else.
I’ve read much much higher than I should have been, all through school.
I enjoy the SD because I feel I can stretch my mind a bit here. It’s fun, and I learn things… dependant on fora, of course. MPSIMS is not a place to discuss mind-bending things. GD is.
Most of my friends are a little intimidated by the way I talk, and think.
And the only friends I’ve got who are on the same level as me don’t know it, as they are busy being smart all the time. It makes them a bit smug.
That being said, I think that the SDMB attracts smarter than average folks. And I think it tends to attract more “professional” types. Anthracite, Quagdop and several others I’m sure, just to name a few.
I think that, and a willingness to discuss things with each other rather than just point fingers and laugh is what makes this board different.
Of all the people I know, who range from absoluty brilliant to not-so-bright, it is the brilliant ones who enjoy spending their leisure time doing things like researching and debating. Of course, there are some pretty dim people who like to talk about politics and some pretty intellegent people who would rather build birdhouses. But speaking generally, intellegent people tend towards intellectual pursuits.
The SDMB can be quite an intellectual work out, especially when compared to, say, watching television. A staggering amount dopers spend at least a couple hours daily reading threads. Although a lot of threads are just for fun, it’s a pretty rare day that I read the dope and don’t learn something or gain some new perspective. Writing a good GD or GQ post nearly always involves at least some outside research, and is much like writing a very short paper and submitting it for instant peer review. For me, at least, the SDMB provides me with nearly as much of an intellectual challenge as my school-work, and it’s all just for fun.
You’ve got to remember, the pluarity of Americans read “0” books a week. Zero. None. Don’t read books. Of course a messege board that values well-read people, witty people with excellent writing skills is attracting an unusual number of bright people. This is our leisure time. And we are spending it thinking and doing a lot of stuff that most people only do when forced to by school. It is a very very strange hobby, and one that naturally attracts the kind of smart person who doesn’t succeed in all the traditional ways that smart people are supposed to succeed (because a good part of success is not wasteing all your time and intellectual energy on a messege board).
There seems to be a trend in this thread to surmise that people on the SDMB would be less than successful than our intellects warrant. Maybe that originates in the OP’s questioning the tired old idea that bright kids have a harder time in school. Let’s get that out of the way first.
Brighter kids often enough do have a harder time in school, the debate is age old and has given birth to the idea of schools for the especially gifted. The difficulties usually experienced are social as in not fitting in and most often a lack of challenge that leads to the child not exploring and taking advantage of their full capacity. None of those two equate with gifted children being more prone to failure though. At least I have not seen any such figures or studies. With only previous cites from this thread in hand I’d rather say that the failure quota amongst gifted children is none other than the normal spread across talent and intelligence. Like so many have pointed out before me success has naught to do with capacity, but what you do with it.
That leads me to the SDMB. What we do here is at its worse procrastination and at its best sharing a tidbit of knowledge amongst other thus inclined. I guess that it usually is an average of the two, entertaining games of the mind. Well, sometimes it’s just a high level of flaming and showing off through superior command of logic, rhetoric, fact and written language.
Now I see an argument that has evolved that runs about as follows:
[list=1/]SDMB posters have a visibly high command of logic, rhetoric, fact and written language and some of us obviously spend lot of time posting on the boards. Hence SDMB posters are a) of above average intelligence and b) failures in as much as that they do not live out there full capacity.
a) is non sequitor since command of the qualities in the premise are only a part of intelligence (albeit the major ones IMHO, but still) and it is based on fallacious grounds since there is no measurable way to ascertain that the average SDMB poster truly does fulfill the criteria stated in the premise.
b) is also non sequitor since the premise fails to ascertain both an above average capacity and the fact that some posters spend much time on the boards neither leads to that all do, nor is it equal to being a looser.[/list]
Since I don’t know any of you guys out there personally (well I know my brother, but he hardly posts so he doesn’t count) I have to use myself as an example.
I’d say that I know quite a bit about this and that, but much of it is pretty trivial and not in depth. There might be one or two things I have a pretty full command on, but even those topics I lack desperately in. I have a pretty good memory so things tend to stick though, which leads to an impression that I know a lot. I think I have an OK capacity to be logical and I guess that if it wasn’t for the fact that I am long winded like the goddamned Trade Winds and mild dyslexia I can express myself pretty well in writing. I also have numerous failings in my intellectual capacity and personality traits that lead to downright moronic behavior at times. Intelligent? Well I’m human we tend to be. Above average? I’d rather say that when you paint the full picture I have some strengths that are balanced out by some weaknesses and thus you end up with a pretty average guy albeit somewhat oddly constructed, which people often mistake for high intelligence.
As far as success goes, I have had my lows and my highs. I’ve experienced the best and the worst, riches and poverty, failure and success. If you add it up I have succeeded quite a bit above average and I have failed way beyond what people usually do. On the average I think I am once again viewed as somewhat odd albeit averagely successful. This has nothing to do with my possible talents – should I have any. Both my winning and loosing in life has mainly had to do with completely other things than intelligence, namely stubbornness, energy, capacity to enthuse and complete lack of perspective on the possible and impossible.
That I post a lot here (and I do) has more to do with the nature of my work. I spend a lot of time working alone and the SDMB affords me a valuable break from my writing for work with some mild, but not too intrusive social interaction involved while not dulling my much needed senses for the task to follow. All that being said, sometimes it is procrastination and I do use the SDMB as a way to escape from the difficulties of my work. On that note… I should get some work done before social calls are to be made.
In any case what I am trying to say is that personally I feel that we shouldn’t raise oursleves too high in our hubris and in the same time not condemn what I think is a worthwhile and rewarding way to do what we obviously enjoy, play with our minds.
Just thought I’d add my 2 cents and rambling thoughts for what it’s worth. (to be truthful I needed a break from work since I am a little stuck, he he.)
Sparc
Actually, I would argue that financial success isn’t a complete measure of success…
has anyone considered that the educational system is actually designed to sabotage people? one boy cried in class my senior year in highschool because he got a B in math. he had straight A’s in everything until then. i almost started laughing, then i thought of the hundreds of hours of idiotic homework assignments he had to do in order to get straight A’s. i got straigt D’s in religion freshman year.
we go to school to learn to be controlled. if you don’t learn to suck up at the right times it can be bad for you career. this is an authoritarian culture, the schools are intended to program us. funny how almost noone is taught accounting in highschool in this money oriented society. are we educated to be loosers?
do you ever notice that plenty of managers in corporations don’t seem to be all that bright? being a TEAM PLAYER counts for a lot even when what the team is doing is dumb.
Dal Timgar
I know I’m one of the stupidest people on this message board (there are a few dim bulbs who throw off the curve, but I’d guess I’m below average here). IRL I am usually dumbfounded by how stupid people are, and I’m usually the smartest person in the room.
I had my IQ tested twice when I was a child, averaging 147, although as others have stated IQ tests don’t prove much. I am far from financially successful as an adult, although I do have a lot more fun than I would if I had a higher paying job.
I think responsibility is what dal_timgar is mistaking for conformity. Responsible people are more “successful”, but don’t get to have much fun. I’d rather be broke.
Well, as someone for whom the term “does not fulfill his potential” was invented, I really can’t say that being brilliant (well, top one or two percent on intelligence tests and SATs, at least) has hindered me from being successful. Mainly, it was being lazy and unmotivated. But on the other hand, I’m reasonably happy with my life in general, which is what I consider important.
The SDMB is an interesting place, as it seems to select for intellectual curiosity, and to a smaller degree intelligence, but allows for a great diversity of backgrounds and for conventional measures of success to not matter. In short, it’s a great place for the bright convenience store clerk to carry on an interesting conversation with an equally bright lawyer. It’s easy to see how this would attract people who consider themselves bright, but who aren’t financially successful. And I’d imagine that among those people who consider themselves bright, this place tends to retain those who do so with at least some justification.
Ackshully, that would mean that 100 was the median IQ, not the average.
And IQ isn’t a complete measure of intelligence. But if the scope of the argument isn’t limited by specifying the terms, then it becomes so vague that it’s pointless.
This is exactly what I meant when I discussed the difference between intelligence and wisdom. Intelligence makes most tasks easier, but it is wisdom that gives people the good judgment necessary to succeed and get ahead. I was always amazed how many very intelligent people I knew would make absolutely horrible judgment calls. It was not until I realized that one has nothing to do with the other that I understood how this could be. In some cases the lack of humility that certain intelligent people have actually prevents them from making wise decisions (e.g. when an individual refuses to “lower himself” to someone else’s level just to fit in). The secret to a successful life in any social atmosphere is to know when to stick out and when to blend in.