A few question for Omnivores . . .

[Darwin_s_Finch]

the_great_dalumti, you haven’t yet addressed your moral standing on the killing of animals related to agriculture.

Here is a thread which brought up the issue of over two million blackbirds, along with seevral other “pest birds” being targeted for destruction, simply because they fed on sunflower crops. That is, for no other reason than because they are competitors with humans for a cash crop.

Undoubtedly, there are similar programs in place to eliminate (or reduce) competition for “staple” crops, such as wheat and corn. The mere presence of these crops attracts a variety of animals, which we do our darndest to kill off.

Where does your moral compass point with respect to this issue? How do you justify the killing of these animals, while at the same time decrying the killing of animals, raised explicitly for such purpose, for food?

I ask becasue you seem to be basing your anti-meat arguments on two factors: it kills animals, and it’s bad for the environment. The same, of course, can be said of modern agriculture as well.

[Baron]

*Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *
**Bryan Ekers -

I don’t want people to adhere to anything, mcuh less a moral code, if they don’t feel comfortable with it. I’m not trying to make a beliver out of anyone. I’m simply attempting to show people that there is, in face, a direct connection between each and every burger they eat, and many, many side effects that they might not be aware of. **

Isn’t it a little cocky to assume that noone knows this except for you? I think I can safely say that everyone here knows that meat is potentially less healthy than vegetables. It seems to me that you think that if everyone had the same info you have, that we would all eat vegetarian. Guess what? We do know what you know. We just made another choice with that info.

No, my insistance that people do not think about these issues enough, and merely (and literally) eat what is fed to them, was probably not very tactful. But, there weren’t many posts which led me to believe that people were actually thinking about the issue at hand thoroughly.

Yes, people here are a skeptical bunch, but there hasn’t been very much actual “debate” taking place. It seems that many of the dopers here feel that debate is merely ignoring questions that people post, and simply go off on a rant. Sad.

Nohting is taken at face value here. You must provide a cite for any claims you make. We don’t know you from adam, and because of that, we can’t take your opinion as being informed, accurate, or factual without some sort of backup from another source. You didn’t write reports in school with stuff you made up, hopefully.

But, to my own fault, I didn’t start the post off as a debate. I asked a question, which I feel didn’t get answered very suffienctly. So, if anyone else is still up for it, I’m simply asking people to explain to me why it is that they feel it’s okay to kill and eat animals, when there’s really no actual need to do so. (In fact, there are many, many scientific studies that come to the conclusion that the world would be much better off if people began to shy away from eating meat.)

Care to show us any of these many, many studies, along with their hypotheses and grantor information (I’m not going to take any studies from PETA (or other biased source) too seriously) .

A good place to start would be to say why you feel it’s NOT ok to eat animals–you’re the one deviating from the norm. I read the entire thread, and you have yet to provide us with any cited factoids or other information.
I’m not guilty of anything except loving meat. I’ve had this freaking discussion with so many “meatless” heads that I’m blue in the face. My only guilt comes from not avoiding this thread.

Your flintstone analogy is a perfect strawman. And I don’t htink you read the link to Cecil’s column wher he said that even with vitamin supplements (try getting a cat to take vitamins–go ahead, try) it would "expose your cat to a foolish risk’.

[stankow]

*Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *
Stankow -
Do you consider the planet, or at least our ecosystem, as something that has a moral system? Since the planet has no specific moral regards for your life, do you therefore feel as if you have no specific moral obligations to do your best to insure the vitality and safety of the planet?

I walk to work. I walk to the mall. Hell, I just got back from walking to the dentist. For those times that I do drive, I have a car that gets more than forty miles to the gallon despite the fact that a single lunatic in an SUV will crush it like a tin can. I keep my thermostat so low it rarely comes on at all. Frankly, I think that fossil fuel emissions create more of a problem than those associated with my consumption of meat.

**

Also, you said:

“The same way I justify the fact that a living, breathing plant was killed for the sole reason of satisfying my hunger.”

So, there would be no difference in the way you reacted to someone taking a chainsaw to a head of cauliflower, than you would a baby pig? **

Why a baby pig? Am I supposed to feel worse about it because it’s a young animal than an old one? If that’s the case, why should I feel bad about virtually anything that happens to a pig, considering that the global population of them is higher right at this minute than it’s ever been, solely because we raise them. So why is our use of them for meat more evil than our raising wheat and corn?

[the_great_dalmuti]

Mr. Finch (if that is your real name . . .)
I agree, there are programs like this everywhere, and they are just as horrible (in my opinion) as slaughterhouses. There is no justification for actions such as these, especially when it more than likely would make a “few cents a pound” difference in the cost of said crop. It’s ridiculous, and it stems merely from the greed of the agriculture industry.

Personally, I do my very best to buy all organic produce. Granted, it’s difficult, and it’s expensive, but it makes me feel like I’m doing everything I can to help the problem. We have to eat. Someday, hopefully, I’ll be abl to have a garden. Until then, I can only make the most educated decisions when purchasing my food, and anything else for that matter.

Everyone keep yeeling that I have an agenda. Well, if that’s true, then my agenda is for people to be as knowledgeable as possible about where their money goes.

Yes, of course modern agriculture is bad for the environment, and participates in the kiling of animals. Granted, it’s not so much a question of moraliry, than it is a purely academic conclusion that the meat industry is the larger offender, which contributes to a much larger number of deaths and pollutants.

I believe we have the responsibility to do everything in our power to stops these practices, which are irrefutably damaging the planet in a way it has never been damaged before. The best, easiest, and most efficient step an individual can take to be sure that he or she is really doing her part, is to stop eating meat.

[archmichael]

dalmuti: Let me preface this by saying that I have never been involved in a vegetarian debate, but am biased toward meat eating because I have been doing so all my life.

I am jumping in because some of the things you said seem incorrect, so allow me to ask you some questions.

Lemur866 asked you one of my questions, but you did not answer.

You seem to imply that the raising of meat animals was ‘unnatural’ in some ecological sense. Yes, it is, but certainly no more unnatural than taking hundreds of acres of North American land, clearing it of the natural flora & fauna, and planting a Fertile Crescent cereal crop.

You mention the amount of fresh water used. Wouldn’t just as much water be used to grow crops, if not more?

How do vegetarians like you reconcile yourself with pest control? Certainly if pest aren’t controlled, they can eat a large percentage of the crops. Many insects and birds and rodents are killed to be able to provide you with your vegetables.

If you had a magic wand that turned everyone in the world a vegetarian, what would you do with the meat animals. They have been domesticated to the point of being completely unsuited to the wild. They couldn’t be allowed to roam freely, or they would eat the crops that replaced them, and some method would have to be created to prevent them from doing this. I would think that most would be driven to extinction.

[the_great_dalmuti]

Stankow -

I think it’s great that you do so much walking, and you are so conscious with using energy. I hope the people in your life follow your good example.
You said:

“Why a baby pig? Am I supposed to feel worse about it because it’s a young animal than an old one? If that’s the case, why should I feel bad about virtually anything that happens to a pig, considering that the global population of them is higher right at this minute than it’s ever been, solely because we raise them. So why is our use of them for meat more evil than our raising wheat and corn?”

The same is true with a baby human. Why should we care about the fate of a human child, say a small female baby who is born to a large farming faminly in China? China has the world’s largest population. She was only born solely because her parents didn’t feel the need not to have another child. She’ll grow up poor and malnourished. Whay should we care whether or not the farmer tosses the newborn into a river?

Because we’re human, and have a physical and mental connection to other living creatures, as well as the environment. Can you deny the fact that the environment is getting worse and worse by the day? No. Can you deny that meat darming is a huge, major source of this environmental deterioration? No. You can’t. You, and I, or your brother can’t just go our and start sifting the waste out of the rivers and underground sources of water.

What we can do is stop patronizing the meat industry, which will in turn prive them with less demand for their product. This will, in turn, prompt them to provide less supply. This process keep repeating, until the meat industry is once again small and environmentally manageable.
archmichael-
Granted, I can’t turn everyone into a vegan overnight. It’s a slow gradual process, and it’s the only choice, in my opinion, that we can insure even a chance of surviving this crazy envinronmental problem we’ve made for ourselves.

How do I reconcile with pest control? Not well. I try to buy all organic food, harvested by traditional methods without synthetic pestacides. Sure, some things die in the process. Some things are unavoidable. If we’re looking at it from a utilitarian standpoint, a vegan diet provides the least amount of death while yiedling the greatest amount of food.

As for the water, here’s an table that appeared in a study donw by Herb Schulbach, published in Soil and Water #38:

Water required to produce 1 pound of California foods, according to Soil and Water specialists at the University of California Agricultural Extension:

1 pound of lettuce - 23 gallons
1 pd. of tomatoes - 23 gallons
1 pd. of potatoes - 24 gallons
1 pound of wheat - 25 gallons
1 pd. of carrots - 33 gallons
1 pd. of apples - 49 gallons
1 pd. of chicken - 815 gallons
1 pd. of pork - 1630 gallons
1 pd. of beef - 5214 gallons

Pretty convincing stuff.

[the_great_dalmuti]

[off topic]

Darwin’s Finch -

I was trying to crack a little joke with the “if that is your real name” thing. Mr. Finch sounds like a character from an old film noir movie, or possibly even an old Scooby-doo cartoon. Anyway, it name sounds ominous, and very much like a bad guy, which is what spawned the joke.

Just wanted to let you know.

And, thanks for the link to the sunflower/bird poison thread. That was really interesting, and it makes me happy that there is someone out there trying to raise awareness about these kinds of issues.

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *
**Sua -

Yes. I do consider humans to be animals. Sorry for not responding to your post earlier. What does that the question of whether or not humans are animals have to do with this “debate?” **

If humans are animals, why do you expect them to act in an unnatural way? Why are humans the only animals expected to go against their genetic programming and not eat those things they are hardwired to eat?

Sua

[tapioca_tundra]

Dalmuti, I take it you don’t care for pudding. Unless you get to eat your pudding without first having to eat your meat.

You know, there are actually very few strict herbivores or carnivores found in nature. Cows eat bugs and lions eat the stomach content of the plant eaters they kill and so on.

“Once it lived on an animule, now it walks along with you…Food. Everything is food.”

[the_great_dalmuti]

Baron -

If you’re worried about me exposing my theoretical future cat to a “foolish risk,” you should think about yourself, next time you step into a fast food restaurant.

Think about commercial airline pilots. Think about how much time, and how much effort goes into making certain that they know how to properly fly their machine. Why is so mch effort given to insure this? Because the lives of many people are at stake, every time a passenger jet goes up into the air.

Now, think about the apathetic 16 year-old who’s flipping burger on the grill, at your local greasy spoon. Each and every one of those burgers he fries up is potentially infected with e.coli. Now, there are standards that the burger has to live up to, before being shipped from the plant, but the chances are still definietly there, when considering if the burger is infected or not. The only way to insure that you won’t get sick from an infected burger, is to cook the burger for at least a certain amount of time, at at least the right temperature. That 16 year-old kid probably went though a whole day’s worth of training, but I wouldn’t call it a mentally demanding job. Does he have anything to lose by not paying attention, and grilling up your burger exactly like he read (or skimmed over) in his training manual? Nope.

So, you should think about your own “foolish risks” that you’re taking, each and every time you eat a dead animal.

And leave my theoretical cat alone. It likes eating all vegetables.

[D_Odds]

*Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *

I believe we have the responsibility to do everything in our power to stops these practices, which are irrefutably damaging the planet in a way it has never been damaged before. The best, easiest, and most efficient step an individual can take to be sure that he or she is really doing her part, is to stop eating meat.

Then never have children. If humans stop reproducing, all problems are solved.

[the_great_dalmuti]

SuaSponte and Anitcay -

It’s true that tue herbivores or true carnivores are rare. Cows munch on bugs that are crawling around on their hay. But, eating the occasional bug is a far cry from building huge factores whose sole purpose is to pump abnormally large cattle.

Most animals, in the wild, establish a certain eco-equilibrium with their environment. By adopting a vegetarian diet, I think it would allow humans to become closer to the earth, which could therefore be considered acting even more “animal-like” than we live today. There’s not a whle lot of hunting and gathering left in human culture. We’d prbably be better off if it were a more regular part of our life. (The gathering part of it, at least.)

Also, humans are not “hardwired” to paint, make movies, or play the guitar, either. Artists do those things, I belive, because they sincerely belive that they can make the world a better place. I feel the same way about adopting a vegan diet. It may not directly be in our “circutry.” But I don’t think that it’s necessarily “unanimallike” of us, to try and better the world we live in.

[Ferrous]

This thread, while a bit acrimonious, contains lots of good information on the subject of the meat industry.

See in particular the posts by the knowledgeable but curmudgeonly Gaspode, and those of the honorable Larry Mudd.

[sub]Note to newbies: The Moderators usually prefer us not to post replies to ancient threads such as the one linked above. If you want to adress any of the points in it, it would be best to quote them here.[/sub]

[the_great_dalmuti]

D_Odds -

Check out www.vhemt.org
It’s the site of for the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, quite similar to what you may have been talking about.

Interesting stuff.

[Sparc]

OK So I couldn’t stay away…

*Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *
… By adopting a vegetarian diet, I think it would allow humans to become closer to the earth, which could therefore be considered acting even more “animal-like” than we live today.

How do you mean? Could you please provide some scientific source that would verify this claim, other than faith.

*Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *
There’s not a whle lot of hunting and gathering left in human culture. We’d prbably be better off if it were a more regular part of our life. (The gathering part of it, at least.)

Please explain how this would be sustainable for a global population of 6,5 billion or more, with sources if possible.

*Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *
Also, humans are not “hardwired” to paint, make movies, or play the guitar, either. Artists do those things, I belive, because they sincerely belive that they can make the world a better place. I feel the same way about adopting a vegan diet.

Hence we are, as I proposed earlier speaking of religion or faith or something of that order. If this is the case; why are you bringing in scientific conjecture on what would be more sustainable and ‘healthier’ for the species and the planet?

Although commendable, the only factual basis of all arguments you have given us thus far, i.e. your cite on water usage per pound of food produced is not conclusive as any proof. Water is only one of the very many natural resources in the carbon cycle and to boot one the easiest one to renew (read recycle). The evidence for meat being ecologically nasty is contentious.

I am not convinced that you are wrong about your ecological claims, but you have yet to show me that you are right.

Regarding the moral discussion I will continue to do as if I have walked away.

[DocCathode]

-was a card game that involved the players changing seats and roles. Thus, the name is a subtle clue that the Great Dalmuti is somebody’s sock puppet.

I’m having burgers tonight. I am aware that they are the muscle tissue of a dead cow. I don’t consider it worth thinking about. Toilet paper is made from dead trees. I doubt very much that people reflect on that while they use it.

   I find the taste and especially the *texture* of many vegetables repulsive in the extreme.  There are many vegetables I can not eat(the slightest piece of cauliflower gives me the dry heaves). There are some veggies I do like, but not nearly enough to provide all my nutrients.OTOH, I enjoy the taste and texture of many meats. These provide me with the chemicals I need to continue living.  

RE-Vitamins
IANA Chemical Engineer but, It seems to me that in order to have a pure chemical(folic acid, riboflavin, zinc) in a reliable quantity, a massive number of chemical processess must be involved. Any Dopers know just how vitamins are made? Are any waste products produced? I would think that particulating the wheat from the chaff would result in a great deal of waste.

BTW-Pig imagery is useless on me. Even baby pigs. I haven’t eaten pork in a veeery long time ;j

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

“What goes through your mind as you’re eating meat, and/or other animal products?”
Ummm, ummmm, good; ummm, ummmm good.

“Also, how do you justify the fact that a living, breathing animal was killed for the sole reason of satisfying your hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet?”
I justify the fact because it fed me. If I was hungry enough, dalmuti, I would butcher you in a heartbeat. I would note that animals killed in a slaughterhouse are killed far more humanely than they are in the wild as some predators take a few hours to kill their prey. If you think humans are the only creatures that are cruel, I recommed you watch a cat play with its prey sometime. Plants are also living creatures and, on the cellular level at least, they are just as complex as animals. If you wear flesh, baby, you have to kill something to live; people who think otherwise are fooling themselves.

“In your mind, are animals simply detached from your basic day-to-day ethics and morals?”
Ethics and morals are two things I’m rarely accused of having. I believe we ought to treat animals humanely and I strenously oppose killing endangered species, but I have no qualms about eating animals like chickens (especially these goddamn stupid things – there is only one thing that dirty, nasty bird is good for and that is satisfying my hunger), cows, deer, fish etc. I’m a predator, baby.

“Do you feel guilty?”
Nope.

“Do you feel as if there are no other alternatives?”
Sure, but not for me. I am not going to change my eating habits for a bunch of worthless animal rights activists or for Buddhists or for trendy New Agers. If you want to eat a vegan diet or a vegetarian diet, more power to you; just don’t expect me to get on your wagon.

“Again, just curious. Thanks.”
You’re welcome.

[tracer]

SuaSponte wrote:

dalmuti, do you consider humans to be animals or not?

Mmmmmmm, long pig! :-9

[Darwin_s_Finch]

*Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *
**I believe we have the responsibility to do everything in our power to stops these practices, which are irrefutably damaging the planet in a way it has never been damaged before. The best, easiest, and most efficient step an individual can take to be sure that he or she is really doing her part, is to stop eating meat. **

Either you missed my first post in this thread, or you didn’t feel it was worthy of comment. However, I feel obligated at this point, in light of your above comment, to repeat myself:

regardless what the environmentalists might believe, humans are far from the worst scourge this planet has seen. There is very little that humans can do that can kill the planet, or even cause irreparable harm. Ever heard of the Permian Extinction? The K-T Event? Both were planet-wide disasters on a scale far grander than anything man has yet to even conceive.

And you know what? The earth, and life, recovered. Just as they will from our actions once we’ve killed each other off.

Now, I will grant you that the method of causing the damage may be different from anything the earth has experienced before, but the planet has weathered much worse in terms of degree.

[Guinastasia]

*Originally posted by Baron *
**

Me too. Anyone who has spent more than a day with a cat knows that they eat meat, and that’s all there is to it. Ignorantly risking your cat’s health so that you can impose your moralistic standards on an innocent animal is far crueler than killing it for meat. Any cat made to eat vegetarian will effectively be staving to death–that’s why it deserves more pity than your “poor” cows. Get it?

Maybe you should do some research on “awareness” before you claim that a cow can feel emotions and fear as we do. **

Agreed. ANYONE who feeds a cat a vegetarian diet is much much worse than someone slaughtering a cow. Cats eat meat, okay? They’re CARNIVORES!! You may not like it, but that’s freaking nature, and you cannot change it.

I don’t care what PETA says-CATS do NOT thrive on a meatless diet.

According to Cecil’s column:

Cats require specialized micronutrients abundant in meat but not readily available from other sources. For example, cats that don’t get enough of the amino acid taurine (only good source: meat) will suffer retinal degeneration and eventual blindness. Other nutrients they obtain primarily or solely from meat include arachidonic acid, vitamin A, vitamin B12, niacin, and thiamine. Cats also require more protein and less fiber than a typical vegetarian diet provides. (All this info comes from the Vegetarian Society of the UK, incidentally.)

According to the Vegetarian Society of the UK,

Taurine
Taurine is an amino acid essential for cats but not for other mammals. In the prolonged absence of taurine, a cat’s retina slowly degenerates and the cat suffers eye problems and can become irreversibly blind. This condition is called central retinal degeneration (CRD). Cow’s milk is a poor source of taurine and there is none in plant foods. The only rich source is meat.

NONE found in plant foods. Got it?

Vitamin B12
Cat’s cannot synthesise their own vitamin B12 and a dietary source is necessary. Vitamin B12 is present only in animal products.

So any vitamin supplements would have to be obtained from ANIMAL PRODUCTS!!!

And this has nothing to do with putting a cat above a cow. It has to do with the food chain. If you don’t like the idea of killing animals, get a rabbit or a guinea pig that only eats veggies. Don’t get a cat. Animals are carnivores. Would you blame and condemn a lion for eating an antelope? No. Neither would I.

So obviously, anyone who attempts to feed a cat a vegetarian diet is being cruel-because cats are natural predators.

What about animals that eat other animals-like my lion example above? What about hawks and/or owls? Should they eat only veggies?

:rolleyes: