A Friend Turns MAGA

a bunch of history that is very relevant-

During the last Presidential election, I spoke out against Trump to anybody who would listen and at every possible opportunity. My friends Bob and Stephanie (they have been married for many years now) were Republicans. They had left the Republican party the first time it had named Trump as their official candidate. They were both engaged in a lot of false comparisons and both-sides-ism. Through reasoned debate based on logic and evidence, I was eventually able to covince them that if elected Trump would do all kinds of horrible, evil things.

Bob, for reasons he never revealed to me, said that he could not in good conscience vote for Harris. He proudly posted that he was doing his civic duty by sitting out the election. I attempted various arguments and historical precedents to convince him to vote Harris. I could not get through to him.

Stephanie (I have told this story here before) said that Harris had made two contradictory speeches about Israel. I politely aksed what exactly Harris had said. Stephanie stunned me by saying ‘You should just Google it’. I pointed out that without narrowing the search parameters, I would need to read the entire text of every speech Harris had made during the entire campaign. I asked if she could be more specific. She said ‘I am not going to spoonfeed you the information. Do your own homework!’. Yeah, I expect that kind of crap from strangers on the internet. I had known them for at least twenty years at this point. I politely restated that without more specific information, I could search from now until the sun goes red giant and consumes the earth without ever finding anything. She explained that she was used to providing cites to strangers on the internet and then having them dismissed unread or otherwise ignored. I reminded her that I was not a stranger. I had known them for at least twenty years and generally attended Passover seder at their house. I reminded her of who I was and how I argued. If her cite was good, I would adjust my argument. If the cite was bad, I would demonstrate in detail why it was bad and provide my own cites to counter it. She never responded.

While on Facebook in the laundromat, I saw a post by Bob. I remain stunned and in a very unpleasant way. He called the No Kings demonstrations “nonsense” and said they were funded by shadowy political organizations he didn’t name. He said that there was no way Trump could ever become king. If you thought Trump could become king, either ‘you never had faith in the Constitution or founding documents of this country’ or you were just ‘a scared bunny’

I am very carefully deciding how to respond. As I see it, after all they have done for me I owe them one chance to see the light before I shut them out of my life forever. If he will not see reason (This is not a matter of opinion. Yes, the Constitution has checks and balances built in. They should have stopped Trump a long time ago. Unless people enforce the Constitution and the law, they are just empty words) I will shut them out of my life anyway.

This really stinks. They were fun to game with. One year they treated the whole group of us to tickets at the PA Renn Faire. A few years ago they bought me a 3D printed Cthulhu dice tower. They were great hobbits. Since the election, I have been wondering if I could forgive Bob for standing by and taking no action to stop Trump from a second term. There is no way I can, or should forgive, what seems to be his present position.

I have lost friends before. This is usually because they have died. I think this will be the first friends I lost because they aided and abetted fascism.

I’m sorry to hear of this situation with people you’ve considered friends for so long. (I’m sorrier still that it’s so common a story, these days.)

I don’t have the answer. Yes, you could do as some might advise and simply ignore all politics-related comments from them and never make any yourself—but that will feel like betraying your own values. No good.

From the incidents you describe it sounds as if these two are very determinedly closing their eyes to facts and clinging to motivated reasoning to justify their choices. I don’t know if it’s ever the case that a friend can turn around someone’s determination to believe things that aren’t true.

It might be that gradually moving away from having these people in your life is the only option that would let you keep your self-respect. (I am not a professional, nor would I want you to assume I’m offering the wisdom of Solomon here, but: this is the way the situation looks to me.)

I could not live with myself if I kept silent. As I said above, I am still disappointed and angry that while he agreed with me that Trump was evil and corrupt, Bob chose not to vote Harris or to cast any vote at all.

If you one Nazi is sitting at a table, and ten other people sit down without condeming him- then you have a table with ten Nazis at it.

I don’t think I will be able to convince him or Stephanie of anything. I feel morally obligated to try, before I shut them out of my life forever.

While my details are different I have known a few who have turned to MAGA (or at least support Trump even if not wearing the red hats).

What I do not understand is this is not a new thing among many people and yet, no one has a good answer. These MAGA-types seem weirdly committed to this monster and I have seen nothing yet that convinces them they are on the wrong side of things.

That is not to say they can’t have differing opinions about certain topics but only that Trump is the answer and are near militant towards anyone who suggests otherwise.

I have yet to convince a Trumper to change their position. Not one. They cling to him with near religious fervor. It’s weird. And (mostly) these are not otherwise dumb people.

I don’t get it. PM me if you learn the secret!

I’ll offer my sympathy as well, but, no, I don’t think there is an answer. As your examples showed, they’re way past evidence into faith and that’s not something they can be reasoned out of.

Since you want to make the attempt, maybe contrast their “claims” with some sort of proof, and then let them know you’ll miss them, and you look forward to speaking with them again when they realize that they’ve been taken for a ride.

Honestly, most of the smart people I’ve known who fall for Trump fall into the common fallacy that They’re too smart to be taken in, despite falling into an ever deepening propaganda hole chasing some personal (and occasionally not even really related) rabbit, and months/years later maybe one came back out and realized how badly they’d been played.

But persistently trying to reach the people they were before? That way lies heartbreak. Make the effort for your own integrity, then break cleanly.

Best of luck, and good spirit.

The thing is these people continue to watch Fox and rightish bullshit.
You won’t change them.

Save your breath and heart.

Don’t do anything nasty. Just don’t contact them. If they ask why, then say so. Calmly and clearly.

Good luck. I know its hard to dismiss friends over political stuff, or any way, really.
You have to think of your own mental health.

First, I would be rather surprised if my last attempt to reach them with reason, facts and evidence actually works.

Second, that really, really does not work for me. For most of my life, political differences were matters of opinion. Then, Trump happened. If you continue to support him at this point, it does not matter why. You are supporting a long list of prejudices and the end of democracy in this country. At this point, you are either speaking out and fighting for democracy, or you are complicit in Trump’s crimes. If you are the second, I do not want you in my life in any way.

There is NOTHING you can say that will make a bit of difference to them. It’s already too late. Write them off. If they ask why, tell them, but it won’t matter.

I lost a good friend when I posted an admittedly hostile excoriation of Trump and his followers shortly after the insurrection attempt. She messaged me, appalled, said that I was showing my “true colors”.

Yeah, I guess I was.

Life goes on.

mmm

I’ve lost both friends and distant relatives to this nonsense. I spent months trying to convince one of my closest friends that they were wrong, but years earlier they had read Trump’s book and it convinced them that he was a genius. After talking, after arguing, after agreeing not to talk politics, it just didn’t work out despite my best efforts. We haven’t spoken in years. And while that still saddens me, I know in my heart that there is absolutely nothing I can do about him, or anyone else who has fallen into this trap. Now, when I see someone on my friend’s list start talking positively about him, it’s a quick and simple block. Life is too short.

I really think the only way to get such people back is to have them attend a few semesters of philosophy classes and logic classes as well as some history classes. I’m not kidding even though I know it will never happen…not even close.

Well. It’s like banging your head against a brick wall.
Who said, “repeating something obsessively is the definition of insanity”?

Do as you must.

But, this can’t be fixed without they go into Trump rehabilitation.

I know. But, for about twenty years they were good friends and acted like fine human beings. Because of that, I am willing to give them one last chance.

Should they insist that ‘Fascism cannot happen here, because America is special! And it would violate the Constitution!’ (That seems to be his argument. He backs it with no evidence of any kind. That is veru unusual for him, and deeply troubling) I will inform them ‘It is happening here. You are both complicit in it. Goodbye forever.’ I will then cut them out of my life and inform my beloved to do the same.

If they don’t already agree that denying a person born here is an American citizen is unconstitutional, then it’s already too late. How much clearer can it be to them?

Many judges already told Trump that he is not really defending the constitution.

I would make notice to friends like that that Trump may not be officially a king, but the is acting like one, as Ezra Klein said:

Trump is acting like a king because he is too weak to govern like a president.

Most deaths in my life were less painful than this.

My friend Eric died last year. It sucked. He was extremely giving and generous. Two women each have one of his kidneys. Somebody else is seeing with his eyes. A bunch of us got together to talk about how great he was. I have many happy memories of him.

Bob and Stephanie are supporting evil while claiming no evil is occuring. Every memory of them is tainted.

To me this is something more subtly different than “turning MAGA”. This is purely anti-liberal politics. In this ideology, they’re open to literally anything in the world except conceding any point or any power to a liberal. This way they can maintain a posture of open-mindedness while in reality it’s the most rigid and fixed ideology on the spectrum.

In some ways it’s worse than MAGA. They have a sense of superiority to liberals, they cannot concede a point under any circumstances whatsoever. Hence they will twist themselves into whatever knots are necessary to “prove” that while Trump is certainly flawed, liberals are worse because they want to make you do certain things and believe certain things.

I call these people “malignant centrists”, they’re open to discuss anything in the world except the idea that a liberal might be right. Arguing against them only reinforces the belief that liberals want to control you, and it gives them the satisfaction of proving that no liberal is ever going to make them move an inch.

Anti-liberal politics is a performance of seizing control in an uncertain world. Deep down they know they lack the courage to oppose conservatives. There can be real danger in it. But liberals, you can tweak them all day long with no real fear of pushback. So they take comfort in the fact that there’s at least someone in this world that they’ll never have to bow to. That’s liberals, that’s you.

Your efforts to convince them are commendable, but it’s worse than futile because it just feeds the siege mentality and provides the confirmation and satisfaction that they foiled a liberal yet again. Your only choices were to say nothing, or to feed the troll forever, or to give up. FWIW I think you made the only choice you could.

Many many families and friends. Some marriages to, have broken up over this.

You can’t stop that, for yourself and others.

Get your piece said and leave it be, knowing it will change nothing.
And, again good luck. Cling to those who are with you and you love.

I don’t talk politics with the people I love who are Trump supporters. There are like, oh, two, I guess. I am less close to them as a result. But I still want to see and talk to them.

The fact that they are fascists has been quite instructive, because it’s easy to believe fascists are horrible monsters in all respects, when one of them just recommended a dry shampoo to me today and the other one has loved me like almost no other person in my life.

I think it’s important to continue these relationships when we can, to the extent that we can (recognizing everyone has different thresholds for various reasons), because when we are the ones up against the wall, they are gonna feel it. And maybe they’ll think twice. Maybe.

I think the risk of violence increases as relationships die. I think the severity of the crisis increases as relationships die. People aren’t really influenced by logic, they’re influenced by their own stories.

Yet I can’t really talk to my neighbors, I’m frankly terrified of most of them. They seem nice enough but I don’t trust them. I definitely don’t trust them to know I’m liberal.

I absolutely could not be close friends or married to a fascist, though. That’s true, deep loss and I’m sorry for anyone who’s ever been through that. My Mom was shifting Trumpward when I stopped talking to her and that was really the thing that made me realize there was nothing to salvage in that relationship.

George Schultz was smart. Eric Topol is smart. They both got snowed by Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos.

As a friend of mine once opined - ‘being smart is no defense against occasionally being an idiot.’