this guy should meet up with machinaforce and spare us the teenage goth/emo angst ……
That’s also true. But seems to me the elevation of extreme torture in the public’s consciousness is more the entertainment industry than media. That’s not to say torture doesn’t exist, or isn’t even a topic first world citizens need to pay attention to as a matter of public policy in some cases*, but citing it as a reason life isn’t worthwhile even on a long list seems to be obviously distorted in terms of probability in the discussion audience here.
And as I said in my observation at least if somebody starts a discussion asking ‘is flying really as safe as they say?’ lots of people will immediately respond ‘yes it is’ and dismiss fear of flying. That response isn’t as immediate, if it comes at all, for various other extremely unlikely calamities. So it isn’t quite a uniform elevation of the sense of risk.
*‘enhanced interrogation’ directly, although it isn’t necessary for something to fit the category ‘1 hr of it would make any other pleasures of a lifetime not worth it’ in order to argue it should be absolutely prohibited, different hurdles. Or there are indirect debates about say first world drug policy v drug gang torture mainly but not exclusively outside the first world. But that can become part of another peculiar tendency of the modern mind IMO, to string together long and debatable paths of causation and treat them as if they were far more immediate and direct moral relationships. Widespread moral confusion IOW. Which IMO is not entirely unrelated to people popping up and saying life isn’t worth living in general, for potential kids, with a blank slate.
I’ll have to give it a read.
It’s funny, I remember watching one of the Star Trek movies. In the movie, there is an old man that has the ability to take people’s pain and suffering away. When the old man offers to take Kirk’s pain away, Kirk is basically like “Fuck you! I need my pain! (okay, I’m paraphrasing lol)”
But anyway, that scene sort of rings true for me. Our pain is part of who we are. And it’s the pain that makes the good times so much more sweeter and appreciated.
Apparently so.
The lines at the DMV are a thing of the past. You can do almost everything online in seconds, or if you NEED to go there, you make an appointment and just waltz right on in. 
The only people who think pain is good are sadists and masochists.
Sigh, I really wished you had stuck to the commitment to never have children and adopted instead.
I am trying to find a way out. The Buddha’s views on suicide were complex, but he realized that you can’t just kill yourself out of here.
:dubious: That’s not what you said a bit ago.
What’s the Buddha’s view the value of life, out of mild vague curiosity?
The Buddha viewed worldly existence in much the same way as I do- deeply vain and filled with suffering. The entire Buddhist doctrine is about forever freeing yourself from the birth-death cycle. Buddhism, like Christianity ( in their pure forms, not their heavily degraded and bastardized forms) are strongly world-denying doctrines.
Here’s an excerpt from a book I was reading entitled '* The Meditation Techniques of the Buddhist and Taoist Matters*
There’s your problem! You are reading the wrong books. Try “Insights into the Mind of a Labrador Puppy” by Mr Peanut Butter.
Well, that doesn’t sound uplifting at all.
Also, is it any wonder I think religions are bad for your psychological health? Positions like this are predicated on and dependent on the idea that life is evil as compared to something - ‘heaven’ or ‘a state freed from the birth-death cycle’ or other such fantastic fiction. Compared to fictional eternal mindless bliss of course the world sucks - nothing can compare to fantasy.
It’s an attempt to get people to devalue and throw away what they’ve got in favor of something they’ve been promised but won’t get.
I was thinking of including serious abuse, by parents usually, as a child as one of the ways a relatively small, but non-negligible, % of people in rich countries end up with lives not worth living, or arguably so, as opposed to negligible probabilities like slowly dying of massive accidental burns or being horrifically (literally, physically) tortured.
But, the original discussion is about if people should have kids. And one of the basic flaws of the OP’s reasoning is the implication that this answer would be the same for everyone. There are absolutely people who should not have kids, those who are dealing with personal problems severe enough (or they are just evil, any way you want to construct it) they are likely to be serious abusers of their kids. Below that on the hierarchy would be more mundane things like does the person have the support of a stable partner, family, other social support network? Have they been able to get the education, skills, and work habits to support children (forget whose ‘fault’ it is if they haven’t)? And so on. It’s not calling for any collective action to take that judgement call out of the hands of individuals for themselves (unless/until they have kids and do abuse or neglect them, then it’s everyone’s business). It’s pointing out that a big category of events which actually dooms rich country people to unhappy lives, really bad parents, is the responsibility of potential parents to evaluate in themselves.
[quote=“raventhief, post:59, topic:819154”]
Is this it?
[/QUOTE]Yeah, that’s it! If it was released in Y2K, then I must have remembered the year I heard it wrong. :smack: Thanks!
Hmmm…a few thoughts.
Death is the mother of Beauty; hence from her, alone, shall come fulfillment to our dreams and our desires. - Wallace Stevens
To achieve enlightenment in Buddhism, one must first recognize that life is suffering. Get OK with that, and life becomes a lot more entertaining.
When I’m done, I’ll have spent at least a million dollars on bringing my three children all the way up to independence. You got to spend that on yourself. My choice, but see below-
Finally, when you get old and gray and are wasting away in a nursing home/assisted living situation, MY kids will a) have to pay for your care and b) wipe your scrawny old arse.
From that perspective, it could be argued I’ve done you a solid.
I’m not claiming it.
Ultimately, the choice to conceive or not is personal. I’m scared witless about the world my kids will face, no doubt. But I categorically refuse to pack my bags for the implied guilt trip that I’ve brought them into a living hell.
I’d say the we’ve both done a solid- for ourselves.
We chose different lives that reflect our personal values and needs.
You have more money, and less to worry about.
I have less money, more worry, but more love.
May we both be equally satisfied and happy with the choices we have made.