A lot of drug users here...

The BBQ Pit
61

Kent:

You might be right. That might be the way I’m looking at it. But, deep down, even if drugtaking isn’t causing you any obvious harm or detrimental effects, the mere fact that it’s illegal should still be enough for you to steer clear of them. Really. Well, that’s my view, anyway. Even if I totally disagree with the law, it doesn’t mean I can just ignore it at my own whim. Can’t you see that?

Mattk:

Yes! And that’s why I’m sad - because people are just arbitrarily ignoring this law because they like taking drugs.

I definitely think that’s wrong.

However, as I’ve said already a few times, that doesn’t mean I want you to stop, or expect you to change your ways - that clearly ain’t gonna happen. But please allow me to be sad if I want to.

-PIGEONMAN-
Hero For A New Millennium!

The Legend Of PigeonMan - Back in the new year! Honest. I promise. No, really.

62

Harmful has nothing to do with it, IMO.
Please show me how LSD is harmful. Please show me how pot is harmful (beyond cigarettes, which are obviously not very harmful since they are legal, right?).

As for being neccessary, tons of things aren’t neccessary, but we enjoy them so we do them anyway. I rent movies…this isn’t neccessary…does that mean I shouldn’t do it?

–
Teeming Millions: http://fathom.org/teemingmillions
“Meat flaps, yellow!” - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com

63

I’m sorry you’re sad, Guano. It’s a contentious issue, and as you can see there are a number of possible debates here: Does illegal=immoral? Is it always wrong to break the law? Is pornography harmful? Is marijuana harmful?

Etc, etc.

However, if all you wanted to do was express your sadness, perhaps the Pit wasn’t the best place to do so. Obviously you don’t want to debate any of the above issues here, but I think you should have been prepared for the response you received.

-andros- www.norml.org

64

Warning: Outrageous, uncalled for comparison follows:

Guano, you remind me of the Hitler Youth who turned their parents in because they were breaking Nazi law by doing illegal things like harboring evil jews and gypsies.

I only say this to illustrate where this kind of thinking leads us.

Hell is Other People.

65

OpalCat: Again you’re not getting it. Smoking isn’t illegal because it wasn’t thought to be harmful originally. Now we know better and they’re trying to reduce usage and warn people of the dangers and even eventually ban it. So not a good analogy.

And I don’t have the stats over which drugs are truly harmful and which aren’t. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. You can’t trust them, there are huge debates over what the facts are, as contradictory stuff keeps constantly cropping up.

And that is NOT MY FUCKING POINT ANYWAY! I leave that to people who know that stuff. Whoever that may be.

Andros: I put this in the Pit because I figured anywhere I put it, people might get very worked up over the issue and someone would then move it to the Pit anyway. So I saved them the trouble.

Sake Samurai: You’re talking shit. I’m not arresting you. I’m not sending you to be hanged. I’m just saying I’m disappointed in what I see.

That comparison was more than just uncalled for, it was wildly inaccurate. And frankly, you disgust me.

-PIGEONMAN-
Hero For A New Millennium!

The Legend Of PigeonMan - Back in the new year! Honest. I promise. No, really.

66

Oh. So it wouldn’t matter to you if marijuana, shrooms, peyote, whatever, were/are harmless. You figure a law is a law, let’s just keep the status quo, regardless of people’s freedom to choose, rather than having to admit error.

Congratulations. In today’s political climate, I’m sorry to report that you’ll go far with that attitude.

67

If it turned out that all those drugs were indeed harmless, more harmless than alcohol and smoking, and were of a level of safety to the equivalent of drinking milk, then I would hope the law would also be changed to reflect that.

You still don’t get it, you still have no idea what I’m saying, do you? You keep bringing it back to things that really have no bearing on my view of this.

What you guys seem to be saying is: “Yes, it’s illegal, but in MY opinion it’s harmless, therefore it’s OKAY to break this law, and it’s OKAY to inhale these substances that affect my brain for momentary artificial pleasure enhancing brain dulling crap. Laws that I don’t agree with naturally just don’t apply to me. That is, after all, the way the world should be for everybody. We should all have the freedom of choice to obey or not obey the laws, based on our own arbitrary whims.”

If that’s what you are saying, and frankly I think it’s EXACTLY what you’re saying, then you are total loons! And you need HELP! Because it’s NOT the way the world should be! It’s WRONG!!!

And as I watch you people do this, I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED!!!

AND THAT IS MY FUCKING POINT!!! OKAY???

sigh

Now leave me alone, you’re depressing me.

68

blah blah blah

69

Marijuana, for one, IS!

You make a good point about contradictory research. The only studies I’ll even bat an eyelash at are independent or foreign studies. Did you know the U.S. Gov’t won’t even allow a study to be performed on a schedule 1 drug unless the aim of that study is to prove that the drug is harmful? No objective studies allowed. Period.

Take for instance, one Gabriel Nahas, who did quite a bit of marijuana research in the '70’s and 80’s. He suffocated monkeys with HUGE amounts of marijuana smoke, more than the average user would inhale in a lifetime!
This is the government’s brand of drug research. Nahas did dozens of these studies.
After much professional ridicule, he was forced to recant his work as meaningless. Nevertheless, his results are still the basis of many of the outlandish claims about cannabis put out by the government and anti-drug groups.

And there is a difference between laws I don’t agree with, and laws that are just flat out WRONG! I see the pharmaceutical industry paying off Congress to make sure medical marijuana stays behind closed doors. And I see the alcohol industry pay off Congress to keep recreational pot confined to basement growrooms and street-corner dealers and IT MAKES ME SICK!!!

I don’t need to be protected from myself. What I put into my own body is nobody’s business but my own. Watching someone who has never harmed a soul in their life get thrown in jail for no other reason than the fact that some Congressman is getting his dick sucked makes me want to cry.

“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
–Martin Luther King Jr.

70

And I want to know how, exactly, breaking the law is immoral. It wasn’t all that long ago that pornography was illegal. If they made it illegal again, would you throw away all your titty magazines and suddenly decide they are immoral, when they were perfectly fine yesterday.

Maybe you would, but I think the rest of us would say FUCK THAT and keep on spankin’!

I mean you compared drug use to RAPE! But see there’s a huge fucking difference. If I rape someone, I am causing them short term physical pain, not to mention a lifetime of mental anguish. When I smoke a joint, I’m not hurting anyone except (possibly) myself.

To me, NOTHING is immoral unless it hurts someone else.

71

Guano said:

What you guys seem to be saying is: "Yes, it’s illegal, but in MY opinion it’s harmless, therefore it’s OKAY to break this law, and it’s OKAY to inhale these substances that affect my brain for momentary artificial pleasure enhancing brain dulling crap.

Apart from the chosen terminology, I can agree with this. As long as your actions aren’t affecting someone else: sure, why not ? Laws are there to protect people. If there is no threat, who needs protection ? If I speed on an empty highway in the middle of the night, is it illegal when the police catch me ? Yes. Am I being immoral by forcing others to accept the consequences of my actions ? No. And THAT’S the difference.
Further:

Laws that I don’t agree with naturally just don’t apply to me. That is, after all, the way the world should be for everybody. We should all have the freedom of choice to obey or not obey the laws, based on our own arbitrary whims."

I do not think I have to point out that this is a very strange interpretation indeed. Guano, pal, NOBODY is claiming that ALL laws should only be applicable if one agrees with them. Some people are basically saying, that they find it OK to use or experiment with illegal substances - and as long as they are aware of their responsibility for the personal consequences, and as long as there are NO consequences to others, this is NOT immoral. Illegal, yes. Immoral, NO.

Why is this so hard ?

Be disappointed all you want, Guanolad. But DON’T start putting words into peoples mouths like that. Try and remain reasonable in debates like this - it suits you better.

Coldfire

“You know how complex women are”

  • Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
72

Guano said:

What you guys seem to be saying is: "Yes, it’s illegal, but in MY opinion it’s harmless, therefore it’s OKAY to break this law, and it’s OKAY to inhale these substances that affect my brain for momentary artificial pleasure enhancing brain dulling crap.

Apart from the chosen terminology, I can agree with this. As long as your actions aren’t affecting someone else: sure, why not ? Laws are there to protect people. If there is no threat, who needs protection ? If I speed on an empty highway in the middle of the night, is it illegal when the police catch me ? Yes. Am I being immoral by forcing others to accept the consequences of my actions ? No. And THAT’S the difference.
Further:

Laws that I don’t agree with naturally just don’t apply to me. That is, after all, the way the world should be for everybody. We should all have the freedom of choice to obey or not obey the laws, based on our own arbitrary whims."

I do not think I have to point out that this is a very strange interpretation indeed. Guano, pal, NOBODY is claiming that ALL laws should only be applicable if one agrees with them. Some people are basically saying, that they find it OK to use or experiment with illegal substances - and as long as they are aware of their responsibility for the personal consequences, and as long as there are NO consequences to others, this is NOT immoral. Illegal, yes. Immoral, NO.

Why is this so hard ?

Be disappointed all you want, Guanolad. But DON’T start putting words into peoples mouths like that. Try and remain reasonable in debates like this - it suits you better.

Coldfire

“You know how complex women are”

  • Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
73

Are you all BRAINDEAD???

Why can’t you guys grasp such a simple concept???

Says YOU! Says a whole bunch of people who have a vested interest! Says a whole bunch of users! Says a whole bunch of people that I don’t personally trust.

Also different bunches of people say it IS bad for you, it IS dangerous, and it DOES adversely affect other people outside of the indivdual user.

Whom do I believe? I don’t know. But one fact remains - it’s currently illegal in a lot of countries. I’ll stick with that FACT, seeing as that seems to be occupying the tiny minds of everyone else so much.

What sort of juvenile idiotic statement is THAT?

I compared breaking one law for personal arbitrary reasoning to breaking another law for personal arbitrary reasoning - as rapists do. Rapists don’t think they’re doing anything wrong!

And you know that’s what I was doing, shit-for-brains. Hey, I was accused of acting like a Nazi Youth Sympathiser before! Who defended me then???

Wrong!!! You ARE ARE ARE!!! That is being WHOLEHEARTEDLY ALARMINGLY IMMORAL!!! Coldfire, you DO NOT recommend breaking the law, risking other people’s lives, just because you think speeding is COOL! You just cannot do that!

But where does it end? Which laws are the right ones? Which are th wrong ones? Who decides? NOT the ordinary man on the street. And NOT just because they ‘feel like it’!!

Like THAT got me anywhere.

You guys are totally bananas. I can’t believe you think this way!

-PIGEONMAN-
Hero For A New Millennium!

The Legend Of PigeonMan - Back in the new year! Honest. I promise. No, really.

74

Guano said:

Coldfire, you DO NOT recommend breaking the law, risking other people’s lives, just because you think speeding is COOL! You just cannot do that!

I wasn’t recommending SHIT: I was talking about morality vs. legality. I said empty highway in the middle of the night, not speeding in 8 AM traffic. No, risking other people’s lives is never acceptable. And speeding is, in my eyes, only cool when it is safe. FYI, 60 km’s over the limit on a highway in the middle of the night by a concentrated driver is a HELL of a lot safer than someone who’s obeying the speed limit whilst passing a school at 8 AM, and talking on his mobile phone at the same time. The latter is, in my eyes, more ‘morally wrong’ than the first.
I never said speeding was cool (regardless), I never recommended it. It served as a comparison.

So, once more: whether an illegal act is immoral depends on the circumstances.

Next thing you know you’re gonna tackle me because I get an occasional parking ticket…

Coldfire

“You know how complex women are”

  • Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
75

You are tying yourself into knots, Guano. Look: Morality and law are NOT THE SAME. Repeat after me. They are NOT THE SAME.

That means that we can divide actions into a sort of venn diagram:

<center>
<table>
<tr width = 70%><td width = 70%>Legal and ethical(ly neutral) actions
<td>Legal and unethical actions
<tr><td>Illegal and ethical(ly neutral) actions
<td>Illegal and unethical actions
</table></center>

Laws are a matter of definition and are easy to look up. But since they are NOT THE SAME THING AS ETHICS, that STILL leaves people responsible to make ethical judgements. (Translation: Sorry, you can’t let other people do your thinking for you.)

Apparently the ethical problem you have with pot smoking resides wholly in the fact that it’s illegal. (The rest seems to hinge on whether or not it’s a waste of time, which is not much of an ethical issue. If it were, masturbation or posting to the SDMB would be unethical.)

But is it unethical in and of itself, if you do not consider the laws? Is the actual act of lighting up a joint - say in Holland - an attack on one’s neighbour, a theft of rightfully held property, a denial of someone’s rights? How could it possibly be?

So, besides your arbitrary “law=morality” prejudice, pot smoking is ethical, or at least ethically neutral. That would put it in the box in the lower left-hand corner of the diagram.

We do not have an obligation to ourselves or to other people to behave legally. We have an obligation to ourselves and to other people to behave ETHICALLY. Repeat after me. You have to behave ETHICALLY, to which laws are fundamentally irrelevant. We would still have to behave ethically if we were living in an anarchistic commune with no laws.

As everyone knows, the state requires us to behave in concord with its laws, non-compliance with which may be punished in various ways. But that is NOT AN ETHICAL QUESTION, that is a question of political science and sociology.

You’ve made it to the bottom. Now go to the top of the post and re-read.

Now do it again. (I want to make sure you are reading this.)

Now, for Goddess’ sake, we’ve explained this to you fifteen times if we’ve explained it once. I’ve drawn you a freaking picture. Can’t you come up with any other kind of argument than banging on the wall and repeating yourself, wailing?

76

I didn’t read the past 76 posts, so forgive for butting my head in and spitting my 2 cents. (I just saw “drug users” and had to come in and share a poem I just wrote)

to the tune of “Beans, beans, the musical fruit”

Weed, Weed, the magical smoke
the better the weed, the better the toke
the more you toke the better you feel
So let’s smoke weed with every meal!

“People must think it must be fun to be a super genuis,
But they don’t realize how hard it is
to put up with all the idiots in the world.”
– Calvin and Hobbes
(__)
/

77

So, according to GuanoLad, it was unethical for the Underground Railroad to help escaped slaves reach abolitionist states or Canada, because it was illegal? Brilliant.

“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather

78

Not just unethical, Phil, but immoral.

79

Guys, I suggest we give up on this lad, he’s not going to budge an inch on his fascist belief that Legal = Moral. I suppose one can’t reason with those one considers sad, sick and immoral. Let’s hope he prays for us!

Hell is Other People.

80

Guano, you never answered the question about pornography. If dirty pictures and movies were made illegal tomorrow, would you throw all your stuff away and CHANGE YOUR MIND about the morality of it? It was perfectly acceptable yesterday (because the govenrment said it was), but it is not acceptable today (because the govenrment says it’s not). Do you change your internal beliefs just like that, because some politicians wrote a law? Do you really believe that personal morals and ethics are that easily manipulated, based on the whims and actions of an elite few in office? Are you that shallow of a human being that the government has to tell you what to believe and what’s right and wrong?