Umm…
Who the heck loans out 160 THOUSAND DOLLARS to someone with no paperwork. I guess it was something like 10 grand here, ten grand there. Was this friend just completely unaware that they were giving money to person with a drug problem?
How much is this how worth?
Personally I would put that guy last on the list of people who get money with the children bein first on the list.
IMO, the friend needs to be able to prove the mistake if wants to get money from a third party. Otherwise, he is free to pull numbers out of ass, and deny that any portion had been paid back. This is the very reason that papers are signed and records are kept. Heckity is not responsible for the debt anyway.
If he can prove the debt, then I would negotiate with him.
I would give the sons a portion of the amount after the expenses are handled.
And I would tell ex-FIL to mind his own business.
Not one dime for “friend” more than can be legally and provably documented.
The rest for the boys.
When someone lends money, they ask when and how they’re going to be paid back. I’m guessing your ex answered, “Someday I’m gonna sell this house and give you the proceeds even though the house isn’t exactly in my name, and I owe many other debts and liens, and I even have children to consider.”
That doesn’t sound right.
Of course you don’t deserved to get mugged. But then again I’m under no moral obligation to give you the money that you lost if you do.
Next time, you’ll know, take a map.
Putting on my Judge Judy hat:
Where is the signed agreement that this transfer of money ever took place?
Where does it stipulate that this was a “loan” and not a “gift”?
Is there any contract or paper trail, email, voice mail, whatsoever, that these are the true facts and the correct sum?
If your ex had signed paperwork and bought a Porsche, then as a married couple you would be obligated (or his estate) to pay it back or return the car -whatever. However, you were not a part of this agreement, there is no proof whatsoever that this money transaction took place nor the amount and the terms of the agreement.
If you wish, in good faith, to pay a certain sum of money to this relative - that is your free choice. However, if you do so, make sure YOU get in writing that they are accepting this money as FINAL PAYMENT for any debt incurred by your ex so your sons will not be sued at a later date.
Taking Judge Judy hat off.
I would speak to this relative and explain the money from YOUR house is going to his two sons. Be honest and say this is the first you have heard about this huge loan and, assuming it is all true, you simply are not in a position to repay it.
Think about this in steps:
1. Is their legal proof that your husband owed money to the friend?
No – there is no legally binding evidence.
2. Is there any evidence that your husband borrowed money? (Even if it is not legally binding.)
Possibly – he told you he borrowed $80,000 a few years ago. Perhaps he received it in another manner (lottery, etc.), and told you it was borrowed so you (or the kids) would not try to claim any of it. Or perhaps he simply lied. Drug addicts do that from time to time.
**3. Is there any evidence the loan was still outstanding?
**
No – he could have repaid it or otherwise settled all or part of it.
4. Is there any evidence that the loan was from the friend?
No – your ex-husband did not disclose the source of the alleged loan.
Let’s put this together. The only thing you know for sure is the ex-husband claimed to have borrowed money “a few years ago”. No proof he actually did borrow money at all, much less who he “borrowed” it from. If there was even a shred of evidence that he owed this friend money (for example, a deposit of $80,000 in your ex-husband’s account, followed by monthly payments to the “friend”) you might consider discussing repayment. As it stands, you are being conned.
You sound like a very kind, caring and decent person to even be considering giving a cent to this “friend”. Unfortunately, those qualities also make you the ideal mark. Keep the money for yourself – if it makes you feel better, consider it payment for all you have done for your ex-husband. Morally and legally correct.
One final thought – if you give anything to this “friend”, he will be back for more.
Excuse me, who loans 10K to someone without paperwork? I loaned 5K€ to my mother knowing full well she was as likely to pay it as to sprout wings, but I made sure my brothers knew about it and there is an excel in google docs, accessible by myself and the bros (but not by Mom), where the initial loan and the only partial repayment received are listed.
Even so, I expect that when she dies it’s unlikely I’ll get the rest of the money back, but the fact that it’s documented and my brothers know about it gives me leverage to be able to get other stuff I want 
And it gives all three of us leverage to deny her further loans, as she spent mine on stuff completely different from the intended purpose (it was to fix her bathroom; the bathroom isn’t fixed and some 3.5K went to 800€ new Dior glasses for her and to new living room curtains).
The friend is SOL. The money should go to cover any financial holes you and your husband have (in the end this is good for your children as well) and toward your children.
Heckity, has this friend filed a claim for the debt against the estate? Aren’t there other creditors who also want to be repaid who have made claims against his estate? Are you the executrix?
The house is not part of the probate estate. Before his death, you owned a one-half interest in the whole house. With his death you own one hundred percent interest in the whole house. Except for the mortgages and other secured liens, no creditor can touch it.
Re: the moral issue: Why would you use the funds you expect from the sale of this house to pay one creditor and not the others? How do you decide what bills to repay and which not to? Or are you planning to use up all the funds to repay these bills for which you have no obligation whatsoever?
I think his family is using the much-practiced tactic of guilt against you. Your deal with the ex for the house is completely separate and apart from any other deal the ex made with anyone. I recommend you listen to your lawyer (worth every penny!) and not let anyone guilt you into an emotional and disadvantageous decision.
I would wait and see if he actually tries to collect. Presumably he knows of your ex’s death, and if he’s made no attempt to contact you I would assume he knew he was never going to see his money anyway.
It sounds to me like the only negative in not paying the “friend” is that the two sons could lose the Grandfather and Friend. It sounds to me like these are people worth losing. I hate to be harsh, but enablers like that are simply not conducive to a healthy life. Your ex would have hit bottom a lot sooner, and possibly survived the experience, if that guy hadn’t been around. I’m betting the “friend” is his dealer, or at least knew what the money was going for.
I’m also betting that you tried to help ex get clean, and these people were in the way.
Anyone who knowingly lends money to an addict is (morally speaking) guilty of manslaughter. I wouldn’t pay him back at all. Pay the liens, recoup your investment, split any leftovers equally between the two boys.
Let both Addicts and Codependents hit their bottoms as quickly as possible.
I agree with this. It smells funny to me that the FIL would suddenly be so concerned about his now deceased son’s undocumented obligation to an elderly friend with more money than sense.
Also, you mentioned that your youngest son had “found” his father? So I’m guessing he wasn’t a huge presence in the kids’ lives? And now they have zip, and you have the house that was half yours anyway, and you have to sell it and pay back mountains of other sorts of collateral loans and liens and back taxes?
I would feel for the friend also in your shoes. But I’d give the money to the boys, or put it in trust for college. Call it back child support.
We don’t even know there really is a “friend.” My first question to the FIL would have been, “Who is this friend and why isn’t he or she coming forward?” My next question would be, “How is a transaction between “friends” any of your business?”
Unless FIL is the friend, he has no vested interest in seeing the friend be repaid. And if he’s too stupid to document $160K worth of loans, he doesn’t deserve a payback.
It sounds to me like FIL is trying to shake you down. Maybe he thinks you are a sucker who will unquestioningly believe any bullshit rumor that flies out of his mouth. Or he sees you as obedient and himself as an authority figure and he thinks you will just roll over and hand him a check. Why would he bring it up unless he had some stake in the “investment?”
Absent any documentation coming directly from this alleged friend, i.e., corroborative evidence, there is no moral obligation to pay back a rumored debt. Whatever’s left over, give it to your kids.
I second the suggestion that the friend is his ‘dealer’…why else no documentation?
I’m a lawyer. HOWEVER, I’m not YOUR lawyer, am not licensed in your state, and don’t do work in the field of probate/estates. With that being said, the best advice you can be offered:
HIRE A LAWYER!!!
Even if you want to give this stupid creditor every penny he’s owed, YOU NEED TO PROTECT YOURSELF! GET A LAWYER!!! If you try to wing this yourself, you have no idea what trap door you’re about to step on/have already stepped on. Hell, I have no idea what kind of morass you can sink yourself into by trying to be ethical.
A lawyer will spell out EXACTLY what obligations you owe (if any) to the creditor, what obligations you owe to the tax department, and what obligations you owe to the children. Do you know what would happen if you spent 20k out of pocket to fix up the house? Would the tax department seize it? Would YOU get sued for the ex’s debt? Do you want to risk that kind of cash not knowing?
For goodness’ sake, IF you’re going to do anything, get some advice from an expert.
(Of which I am not one. But I do know enough to tell you to hire an expert.)
:smack:
Thats probably it !
I live such a sheltered life that when folks loan others money, even informally, that it never crossed my mind that its a drug dealer with a layaway plan !
Forget anything I said about what might be fair/right/ethical without regards to whats “legal”
My new vote?
Screw em and get the right kind of lawyer post haste.
I think I need to explain a little more fully. The friend of the family is a woman (whom I suspect is the concubine of the ex-FIL) in her late 70s. She is divorced and got a considerable fortune upon divorce.
This woman became a substitute mother to my ex over the years since he and I split. I’ve always been aware of her, but never really “knew” her. My ex-MIL is fully in the picture and has been as much a champion for paying back the friend as the ex-FIL has been.
When I stated my younger son “found his Dad” - my son had been staying the weekend with his father and found his collapsed body. They were very close. I believe my young son was playing the parent/partner role for his Dad, trying to keep the house in order. The elder son was estranged for many of the behaviours the drug affected ex exhibited.
legalsnugs stated,
Both of those statements are entirely true. According to my lawyer (who is very good), the law considers the last legal act of my ex, as he drew his last breath, was to transfer the house 100% to me.
The second note about paying this friend creditor in favour of all other creditors could get me considerable trouble. As the ex left no will, there is no executor. My sons signed (forgive me forgetting the proper legal term) “waivers” declining to submit applications to become the executors. That decision was made to protect them from any of their father’s legal responsibilities; hence having creditors pursue them.
The friend of the family is the only individual to come forward (via the ex-FIL) and I know that the ex’s gf also loaned him money. She finally told me the amount, but stated she wanted that money, if possible to go to his children.
I thank you all so much for helping me think my way through this - morally, ethically, and legally. I feel very badly for the misguided support the friend gave him, but truly she played a significant role in his downfall. Prior to leaving I too sunk a small fortune into the marriage in attempts to keep the ex’s head above water.
I absolutely believe the ex said he would pay her back with the proceeds from the house sale - but he couldn’t have - even if he’d truly wanted to - the costs against the house and then subsequent needing to find somewhere else to live would have used up every dime. The friend must have known this.
Point out, to anyone who makes such inquiries, you divorced this man, in large part, so the consequences of his bad decisions could not be visited upon you or yours. The house was owned jointly, and not part of the estate, not by accident but to protect you from any poor management of his assets, on his part.
Debts he took on, and those who made the loans, are alone responsible for this mess. Any inquiries about outstanding debts need to be taken to the probate courts. Where it will, no doubt, be pointed out there are no assets in the estate, only debts. So sorry about your luck, ‘close friend’.
Making unsecured loans to over extended addicts clearly involves some risk. He was willing to take that risk, for whatever reason. Expecting anyone else to bear the consequences of that risk is ridiculous. Your risk, your consequences.
Stand firm. Remind them, you are not this man’s mother, wife, partner, just someone who happened to jointly own an asset, separate from his estate, at the time of his death. Any attempt to see it any other way is just a way of shifting responsibility for their money lending practices from themselves, onto others.
Even if you decided to be extra nice and pay back this debt, she (or her lawyer) needs to come forward, in person, with documentation in hand. And if you do pay up, you need to pay directly to her, not to her boytoy.
So far, you only have your ex’s father’s word that there was any sort of loan. For all you know, friend is unaware that he’s trying to collect.
In some awful way, you’re lucky this all came to light now. If your name was on the loan & the title, those people who had claims on the property could have come after you even though your were divorced and knew nothing about them.
But she hasn’t come forward at all.
Only your FIL mentioned it. As he is not married to this friend, then what business is it of his? I would be pretty pissed off at any boy toy of mine who decided in a vacuum to nose his way into my personal business.
With your further clarification, I suggest that this friend really has no intention of making a claim for repayment and the FIL spoke out of turn on a matter that is none of his business. I still don’t see any obligation on your part whatsoever.
And now my question is, despite 95% of the posters in this thread saying as much, are you still on the fence about this “dilemma”?
Side note to the posters who keep crying, “Get a lawyer!” Hello, reading comprehension? She’s got a lawyer, one who has already advised that she is under no legal obligation at all. From what I can tell, she doesn’t have any moral obligation either.