A moral dilemma

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’ll try to tell the back story succinctly.

My ex-husband passed away on May 30th of an accidental drug overdose. He had no Will. We have two sons together, now in their early twenties. As is often the case with an addiction/illness, my ex was in significant financial difficulty.

He would not have been able to qualify for a mortgage on his own and for that reason, even after our divorce, I remained on title and mortgage. Upon his death and under “rights of survivorship” (we were joint tenants) the house transferred to my name (I have remarried).

The house was in pretty poor shape, but nothing a modest budget and tons of hard work wouldn’t correct. I’ve found there are tax liens and judgments and outstanding property taxes against the house and of course the mortgage. The house is now restored and on the market.

During my ex’s funeral his father informed me that the ex borrowed a lot of money from a friend of the family. I had known he borrowed money a few years ago, (he’d told me $80,000 when he gave me a small down payment of $20,000 to begin to buy out my share of the house).

However, my ex-FIL claims the ex borrowed $160,000 from the friend.

My first thought was to repay the friend the $80,000 of which I was aware – after the house sells. After I’ve paid the real estate agent, the liens, property taxes, judgments and mortgage, I should get the money I’ve invested out. The ex and I had an agreement that he would give me my legal entitlement of 1/2 after he sold the house - I had no idea there were so many encumbrances against it.

So, the friend had no paperwork or legally binding agreement to be repaid the “loan”. 'There is no evidence in all of the ex’s effects that show that money being paid toward his debt, so all indications point to his spending the money on his drug habit.

If I were able to get any money out beyond my “fix up budget”, who would you give any additional money to?

  1. The friend who loaned him the money without an agreement? And perhaps enabled his drug habit to reach new levels;
  2. His two sons who were left nothing of any value (they can sell the house contents legally as his next-of-kin, but they won’t get much)?
  3. Me, as I am entitled to the property a)under survivorship; b)matrimonial law?

It may damage my sons’ relationship with their grandparents if the “friend” does not receive any money from the sale. Also, knowing that he’d borrowed the initial money would I pay back only the $20,000 I was given?

I am someone who tries to do the right thing morally and ethically irrespective of any legal obligations (or lack thereof). Am I a chump for even considering paying the friend anything?

Okay, what would YOU do?

2

I’d hire a probate lawyer license in that jurisdiction.

3

This isn’t about law. It’s about what’s right. Which is certainly open to interpretation.
Am I correct in assuming the “friend” knew of your Ex’s drug problem? If so, he or she took their chances giving any money at all to an addict, and had no reasonable expectation of being paid back, ever. If your Ex managed to keep his addiction a secret, that’s different. Personally (and I expect to be in the same situation eventually myself) I wouldn’t feel right profiting from his death in any fashion. Recoup your losses, pay the expenses and see what’s left. IF the “friend” was in the dark about the situation, I might split the proceeds evenly with your children and the friend. Feel free to PM me, my EX is in jail again for drug use…)

4

Thanks, Oakminster, but my very expensive lawyer has said there’s nothing to probate. As he left only debt - there is no estate. The house does not form part of the estate. The only debt to be paid are the ones attached to the house - from a legal standpoint.

My question is not a legal one- I’m asking how morally obligated to repay an unsecured loan other Dopers might be.

Ultimately I’ll do the “right” thing to the best of my ability - but anyone I’ve spoken with about this loan (including the lawyer) are saying “too bad, so sad” for the family friend. It just doesn’t sit well with me.

5

And under no circumstances would I pay back more than he can prove he gave…

6

IANAL but I don’t get how you’re responsible for your ex’s debt. Any debt incurred during your marriage, that’s one thing. At some point you divorced him though. Surely anybody who loaned him that kind of money had something in writing, signed, etc. And really, who loans that kind of money to a drug addict? This sounds awfully fishy to me…I wonder if the “friend” is actually the grandfather or other family member.

Supposing the lender does have something in writing, I see an attorney in your future. Everything goes through probate (even if there’s a will) as I understand it, and that may be the time for the friend to make his claim against your ex-'s share of the proceeds from selling the house.

I wouldn’t agree to anything. There are legal and legitimate means by which lenders can get money back. YANAL so don’t try to figure it out yourself. You may not care a damn about the money but your kids’ rights need protection too.

7

Wow dragonlady you got it one take! Thank you for understanding.

I’m sorry about your Ex. I’ve been told the Narcotic Anonymous mantra is: “Institution, Jail, or Death” for addicts. I hope for your ex’s sake the jail time can help move him forward.

The family friend is elderly, but the ex’s family has a history of drug abuse and denial in equal measure. One ex-BIL has been on the Methadone program for many years and can barely form a sentence. My ex-MIL admitted herself to get off pain killers a number of years ago.

It is possible that the friend overlooked the signs of drug addiction - but I can’t say for certain. My youngest son, who found his Dad and was very close to him said the friend should realize “you back a losing horse; you lose”. That actually breaks my heart, but he’s right.

As you’ve noted I am not looking to benefit in any way from my ex’s death. I would like to look out for his children’s welfare however.

8

With no evidence of the debt, what level of confidence do you have in the $160,000 figure?

9

My Ex has spent most of his life in custody…life on the installment plan. This time won’t help. He started using meth at age 8, given to him by his aunt, and started shooting dope at 12, with the help of his older brother. He has been in custody since age 12, never has been off parole. About 3 months out of custody is the best he can manage. That’s another thread…

The only other factor I can see is if friend is financially solvent. Will the loss of this money effect his standard of living? Maybe then I’d pay something back. If the family is as intimately familiar with drug abuse as it seems, I’m afraid I agree with your son…

10

Bricker, I’m not that comfortable with $160,000. It was said at the ex’s funeral of all things, and I felt somewhat spitefully. I would imagine there would be a paper trail of some sort - cancelled cheques or something - but I’m not sure I want to begin the process of having the friend pull everything together when I’m already sure I can’t pay back the amount borrowed (if in fact it’s true).

dragonlady the friend is ridiculously well off - in many ways more money than brains - although the ex-FIL said that the friend gave their last cent to the ex. I don’t know why anyone would do such a thing.

My ex also had a lifelong addiction. It started at 12 for him and it escalated over time. I was only peripherally aware of how bad it was as I came from a family who didn’t believe in doctors or medication (in a relative way). I don’t think I really understood until after I left the marriage and learned about drug addiction. It was Fentanyl and cocaine that finally killed him. I didn’t even know what Fentanyl was until I read the Coroner’s report.

11

While it is an ethical question now, once you’ve answered that question (and I don’t know what I would do myself), you do need to be prepared to get a lawyer. If you decide to give anything to the friend of the family, best to put it into a legal agreement to keep him from asking/suing for more later.

12

As others have stated, I would ask for good proof that the lender lended whatever amount.

As for the house, my simple take on it would be the deceased “owned” half of it, baring more detailed information of what lead up to this point.

Say you spent 20k fixing it up. You get 220k after all the fees are paid but not including the fix up cost.

So, in my book the dead ex had 100k coming to him.

How much of that goes to his kids? I don’t know. How much of that goes to the “creditors”? I dont know. Certainly the creditors arent entitled to more than that 100k though.

But in my opinion, nobody has a right to “your” half of the money. This assumes of course that you didnt directly profit from him borrowing the money blah blah blah.

Thats my 2 minute opinion of whats “right”. Just a quick moral and not legal opinion.

13

Your priorities, in order, should be these:

  1. Your current spouse
  2. Your children
  3. Others

Were I your husband I’d have major issues with you paying out that kind of money—hell, I’d have an issue with you paying $5000. If you were the husband and he were the wife, I’d have the same issue.

I could take a little more kindly to a small, old debt cropping up from WHEN you were married. This isn’t small and the premise that it came while you were married is in doubt.

Even supposing the current spouse is okay with it, you’re depriving your kids. Say you had the $160K in the bank, paid it off, then got killed tomorrow in an accident. Your kids would have inherited some of that money. IMO you shouldn’t think of which pocket the money comes out of…it’s your money, and money is money.

As for the grandparents holding it against your kids, I don’t know. The logical person to be (illogically) angry at is you, for “refusing” to pay up. If they hold their relationship with you over the heads of your children, then I say your kids are better off without them.

I say he needs to first provide you with some kind of evidence of how much money was lent, up until you divorced the ex. Anything after that is his problem. It may not be he has records in the form of a written agreement but rather, in cancelled checks or something.

But for all you know, the ex provided him with some sort of collateral for these loans. And I think it’s likely that the loaning escalated as the addiction grew. You don’t know what “receipts” the ex had for repaying some of this. It could be that he was taking out “home improvement” loans on the house and playing the friend back a little now, borrowing more later…a little shell game with the lenders.

Don’t promise anything. Just say, “I’ll think about it.”

14

Morally, the only people that should be getting the cash after this house sells are his sons.

The friend was stupid for giving the guy money with zero paperwork. Seriously – stupidity like that doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. Sucks to be them.

You should get the money that you sunk into the house, but nothing more than that. But it sounds as though you’re not looking to financially benefit from this anyway, and that’s really cool. A lot of women would think nothing of keeping the whole amount.

As far as damaging the relationship between your sons and their grandparents - if the grandparents are SO concerned about the poor idiotic friend who loaned money to a drug addict - they can pay the friend back themselves. If the grandparents take it out on them, they’re jerks. It is not your sons’ problem, and they deserve to get SOME kind of compensation for having the deceased as their father.

More than anything, morally – you need to look out for your kids. Time to be a Mama Bear :wink:

Just my opinion, off the cuff, made with what little information I had.

15

I would be disinclined to pay any money absent proof of a debt.

16

You’ve already received legal advice that the friend is entitled to nothing. My opinion is that you don’t have any ethical obligation to this “friend”.

The friend could have insisted on security for his loans. If they amounted to $160,000.00, he was extremely foolish not to get anything in writing or to get some sort of security for the loan. He can’t now expect to have you give up your entitlement to the house just because he didn’t look out for his own interests. What he’s asking you to do is pay your ex husband’s debt out of your own money.

He should have known better than to advance that sort of money to an addict, and if he didn’t know your ex was an addict, he should have been more diligent in finding out what he needed all that dough for. I don’t believe for a minute that he actually paid out $160,000.00, and I think at this point it would probably be impossible to figure out how much he did advance.

I have no sympathy for his position. In my opinion, you and your sons have the only legitimate claim to that money, legally and ethically. I think you should sell the house, pay off the legitimate creditors as instructed by your lawyer, take out the money you put into it, and give the rest to your kids.

17

I understand your empathy, but really, everybody has got their life lessons to learn. This guy who handed out 160K needs to learn his.

You shouldn’t have to pay for his stupidity.

Not trying to imply the guy deserves to be ripped off, I’m just saying he made a bad judgment call.

18

Seems to me that as the house is not part of your ex-husband’s estate, the (alleged) debtor has no legal recourse against it, and, as you were a co-owner of the house but were not party to the (alleged) loan, I do not believe that he has moral or ethical recourse against it.

19

Bear in mind, that once the tax liens etc. are settled, there may not be any money to give to anyone.

I’m shaky on how that all works when a house is inherited. In general, debts the deceased owed must be settled by his estate, and any that can’t be, well, sucks to be the creditor. Maybe half of the value of the house could be attached in that way (presuming you already own the other half). The tax liens etc. would be first in line for that, however.

Get solid advice as to the likely market value of the house once fixed up. I’d be worried that if you do spend some of your own money to do that, it might not sell for enough to pay you that back after all the liens are settled, and then you’d be out the money you used to clean it up.

Honestly, I’d be tempted to just sign it over to whomever holds the first lien on the place. I freely admit I do NOT know how that works, however.

20

Let’s say I’m walking in the city and make a bad judgement call and turn right instead of left and end up in a bad part of town. Do I deserve to be mugged? It could be a good life lesson for me. :slight_smile:

The friend made a mistake. This does not mean that he deserves to lose the money.

I personally could not make this decision. The desire to do what is best for myself would be too strong. I recommend seeking out an arbitrater. Let a 3rd party make the decision.

Also, talk to the friend. What does he think he is owed? Is he willing to let the money go to your kids? If you refuse to pay back the money and he thinks he deserves it you will never be friends again.