A movie that might change your life, etc., Part 2

[pldennison]

Good call, Dangerosa. I was going to ask him for a cite for that one too, but I don’t like asking FoG for a cite until I already have the information, so I can watch him scramble to cover his lie. “My pastor told me! Er . . . I meant it was the top seller among white male Fundamentalist Christians ages 21-34! Um . . . God said so!”

According to the Video Software Dealers Association, Left Behind certainly wasn’t among the Top 100 VHS Rentals for 2000. Nor among the Top 100 DVD rentals, for that matter. I’m still looking for the sales numbers, but if it isn’t even in the top 100 rentals, it’s nowhere near the top 20 for sales.

Hey, I just found it, at Video Business, the industry trade mag. The top 31 titles for 2001 were:

1 Tarzan (Buena Vista)
2 Toy Story 2 (Buena Vista)
3 The Sixth Sense (Buena Vista)
4 Star Wars: Episode 1–The Phantom Menace (Fox, VHS only)
5 The Green Mile (Warner)
6 Stuart Little (Columbia)
7 X-Men (Fox)
8 Erin Brockovich (Universal)
9 Gladiator (DreamWorks/Universal)
10 The Little Mermaid II: Return to the Sea (Buena Vista)
11 The Perfect Storm (Warner)
12 Double Jeopardy (Paramount)
13 Chicken Run (DreamWorks/Universal)
14 Runaway Bride (Paramount)
15 Nutty Professor II: The Klumps (Universal)
16 The Bone Collector (Universal)
17 The Matrix (Warner)
18 Three Kings (Warner)
19 American Beauty (DreamWorks/Universal)
20 The Tigger Movie (Buena Vista)
21 The Patriot (Columbia)
22 Pokemon: The First Movie (Warner)
23 Mission: Impossible 2 (Paramount)
24 The World Is Not Enough (MGM)
25 Galaxy Quest (DreamWorks/Universal)
26 End of Days (Universal)
27 Blue Streak (Columbia)
28 Sleepy Hollow (Paramount)
29 The Thomas Crown Affair (MGM)
30 Any Given Sunday (Warner)
31 Gone in 60 Seconds (Warner)

Now, this chart includes both sales and rental revenue. Ranking the Top 10 in Sales Revenue vs. Rental Revenue we get:

1. Tarzan (90%-10%)
2. Toy Story 2 (90-10)
3. Little Mermaid II (89-11)
4. The Tigger Movie (89-11)
5. Pokemon (83-17)
6. Chicken Run (79-21)
7. X-Men (78-22)
8. Stuart Little (74-26)
9. Nutty Professor 2 (71-29)
10. The Matrix (62-38)

Nope, no Left Behind.

Cloud Ten issued a press release (through my company, no less–egads!) on Nov. 8 claiming that the video had beaten all titles streeted on Oct. 31; I cannot find charts to verify or disprove that without getting a subscription to Billboard.

The release also says, “‘LEFT BEHIND: The Movie’ also maintained a surprising weeklong first place title reign on Amazon.com’s best seller video list, beating out Disney’s ‘Toy Story 2’.” So the movie beat Toy Story 2 for one week at one retailer. Wow–that definitely makes it the top seller for 2000. :rolleyes:

Care to explain this latest snafu, FoG?

[jayjay]

*Originally posted by pldennison *
**Care to explain this latest snafu, FoG? **

Well, obviously the secular humanist video entertainment industry is covering up the phenomenal success of Left Behind. Everyone knows that anything by Tim LaHaye is automatically a classic in the league of Hemingway or Poe, so it must be another anti-Christian conspiracy.

Or, FoG is either lying or engaging in wishful thinking.

[Esprix]

I am reminded of the scene from “The West Wing” I got to see again recently:

President Bartlet: I like how you call homosexuality an abombination.

Jenna Jacobs: I don’t say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President, the Bible does.

President Bartlet: Yes, it does. Leviticus.

Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.

President Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I’m interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown sophmore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it OK to call the police? Here’s one that’s really important because we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you?

Unfortunately IMDB left off the part where he makes her stand in his presence.

Yeah, it’s an old saw, but it has its points.

Esprix

[FriendofGod]

Hello Straight Dopers

Before I backtrack and try to answer a few more questions, let me address this latest issue about the LB stats:

FoG, do you have a cite for this.

This is totally my fault. I was stating from memory what I’d seen and I quoted totally wrong … Left Behind was the #1 selling video in the fourth quarter of 2000, not for the entire year. My apologies to all :). These are stats that CTP reported on the website.

I’ll continue with my responses in the next post…

[Mercutio]

Could we still have a cite anyways? You know, for that pesky proof aspect of it all.

[minty_green]

I’ve just been looking all over http://www.cloudtenpictures.com/ and http://www.leftbehind-themovie.com/

Neither site seems to say anything about sales figures for the video. Could you please provide a cite for the fourth quarter assertion, FoG? Considering the posts of Dangerosa and pldennison, I’m skeptical.

[FriendofGod]

pldennison said:

Maybe they’ve been successful because what they say constitutes a much better way for human beings to live and relate to each other than your silly, antiquated fantasy world.

Or maybe if you repeat a lie long enough and make it sound good, people will buy into it. Seriously. Like Satan in the Garden of Eden.

Of course, if you were black, or a Communist, or gay, living in the 50s was akin to living with a sign that said, “Please, beat me up!”

Fair point, sort of. You’re slightly exaggerating, but the point is taken … not everyone had a wonderful experience in the 50s.

The only conclusion I can come too is that your mother and her friends actually grew up on the set of the “Leave it to Beaver” and “Ozzie and Harriett” programs. I mean, really, do you think none of us know anyone who lived in this era? Who do you expect to swallow your tripe?

Whoa, cowboy. Just because your parents didn’t have a wonderful life doesn’t mean my mom didn’t. Why do you so quickly assume that just because your parents didn’t experience it that other people didn’t?

Regarding MLK Jr:

a man who, even in the face of all his wonderful accomplishments in the field of civil rights, was repeatedly unfaithful to his wife. Imagine that–people are fallible, and born-again Christians are as bad as the rest of us

Truthfully I’ve heard nothing concrete on this subject, just rumors and hints but nothing clear cut. If it’s been proven beyond a doubt, so be it. You last line is partly true but seems tinged a bit: yes people are fallible, Christian and non. When you say BAC’s are “as bad as the rest of us”, are you trying to take this and other examples and paint all of Christianity with them?

I said:

When’s the last time any character on Friends went to church and declared that they loved God with their entire being? When’s the last time you saw Ally McBeal having her quiet time and reading her Bible? When’s the last time you saw Dawson and whatever-his-girlfriend-is pray together?

You replied:

Who says that’s what the definition of “Christian” is? You?

Where did I say it was the definition of what a Christian is? In fact I’ll come right out and say it’s not. These are merely things that Christians do.
Kimstu said:

there seems to be one glaring inconsistency in your arguments that I don’t think anyone’s specifically addressed yet. To wit: you complain that Christians (at least conservative Christians who share the particular brand of Christian values that you support) are often portrayed negatively in the media. But when others complain about negative behavior on the part of actual self-identified Christians, such as tormenting the children of an atheist professor or declaring that Catholics or Mormons aren’t Christians or showing up for hate protests at the private funerals of homosexuals, you simply respond dismissively that “those people aren’t real Christians.”

Read back over it. I never said they weren’t real Christians, I just cast doubt on the assumption that they were. Anyone can say they’re a Christian. One of you who are atheists could claim to be a Christian. I read an unintentionally hilarious article at a friend’s house one time … it was in one of those women’s mags, don’t ask which cuz I don’t recall … but I happened to notice a cover article on going undercover in the abortion wars … and it was about a woman who pretended to be a Christian and joined a church and prayer meetings and the whole nine yards, just to get inside info. It was funny. My point: I’m not saying they weren’t backslidden Christians, just that you shouldn’t assume they are.

But there’s nobody officially in charge of picking out who’s a “real” Christian and who’s not, any more than there is for most other groups; neither you nor anyone else has authority to speak for Christians as a whole.

…

if such “un-Christian” people … are loudly identifying themselves as fundamentalist Christians, and loudly claiming that their uncharitable behavior is what God demands of them as fundamentalist Christians, then how can you expect that fundamentalist Christians will not often be portrayed negatively?

Well here’s the thing … I am not against exposing hypocricy and sin amongst Christians, or proclaimed Christians. I am just saying it should be balanced with portrayals of Christians who are genuine and are walking the walk and not just talking the talk. The problem: you see far more of the former and very little of the latter.

As one minor example, I remember here in Bham Al in the late 80s there were a lot of pro-life / pro-choice marches and protests going on. (Disclaimer: I am not wanting to start a huge abortion debate … this is just one minor example of the media coverage issue). I know several people who were involved in the protests, and I’ve been to several “silent marches” myself.

Anyway, it never ceased to amaze me that you could have hundreds of polite, family-oriented, Godly people walking the streets, praying, asking for God’s mercy, praying for the pro-choicers … and they would for the most part be ignored. The media would focus all it’s attention on the ONE GUY that was a complete jerk, ranting and raving and yelling and spewing scripture verses. Sure there are always people like that. But the media is a big part of perpetrating the deception that “that’s just how Christians behave”.

… Okay, I’m making little progress and I may never catch up. I’ll try a few more in a couple of days and do as many as possible. Have a good night folks :).

[FriendofGod]

Neither site seems to say anything about sales figures for the video. Could you please provide a cite for the fourth quarter assertion, FoG?

Tell you what, I’ll ask about it on their message board and give you guys the response.

[Mercutio]

You get off your lazy ass and do some VERY long overdue reasearch to support your claims!

All throughout this post you have been tapdancing around the maypole that is most of the good points that contradict yours.

*[sub]Mercutio has been very irritated all night.[/sub]

[FriendofGod]

Since you guys keep asking for cites on anti-Christian bigotry, I had to pass this article along when I saw it in this week’s World magazine. (Disclaimer: one example isn’t "proof. I know that. Save your breath and don’t holler “ONE EXAMPLE ISN’T PROOF!” I know that. I just said it.) For sure, AS I see examples I will certainly pass them along.

Article from 2-17-01 World magazine:

The film (Sugar and Spice) is about five cheerleading friends who stage a bank robbery. One of the cheerleaders is a fundamentalist Christian, and this provides fodder for recurring jokes that – sometimes viciously – mock her, her Bible-believing parents, her church, and, more often than not, her faith itself.

More than just gentle pokes at evangelical Christians often found in the products of pop culture today, the jokes in Sugar are crude and blasphemous, giving a sexual connotation to pictures of Christ on the cross and painting church-goers as a cruel breed who refer to all unwed mothers as whores.

Perhaps it’s too soon to describe a trend, but Hollywood seems to be noticing the very real presence of outspoken Christians in public high schools, and so far it’s not responding favorably.

[Mercutio]

Mind giving us a link there, Foggie?

[FriendofGod]

http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/02-17-01/cultural_3.asp

Although you will have to get a user id and password to access it. It’s the mini-review of the top 5 movies of the week, and the bottom of the article spotlights S&S and one other.

[posatyvo]

I dunno, from the movies I’ve seen it seems like thier is just as much christian bashing as any other type of bashing. Given I didn’t read all of the above posts. From the vast amount of movies and shows out there you could probably find one downing cow tipping for everyone cited that hits christians. It all evens out in the end. The hardest thing I find in being a christian when I try to witness to poeple is the persons previous experience with other ‘christians’ not any movies they have seen. I’m not perfect but at least I try to be nice to poeple knowing I represent all christians. And for goodness sake poeple, TIP! The thing I hear most is how stingy christians are to thier waitresses and that they are the most demanding patrons.
As for ‘Left Behind’, it’s crap. Biblically when the rapture takes place the door is closed. There is no salvation after that except for the set number of Jews as written in the Bible. (I’d give you a verse, but my Bible is in the car.) That’s just my understanding though so don’t take my last paragraph as saying you’re going to hell.

[Ben]

*Originally posted by FriendofGod *
**
Or maybe if you repeat a lie long enough and make it sound good, people will buy into it. Seriously. Like Satan in the Garden of Eden.
**

Or kind of like, ‘“Left Behind” was the best selling video of…’

FoG, absolutely nothing about your claim holds up. You say it was the top video of 2000, and we prove you wrong. Then you say it was the top video for one quarter of 2000 (despite not even being in the top 200 for the year,) and give us a pseudo-cite which, upon scrutiny, doesn’t hold up.

Why can’t you admit when you’re wrong? Oh, I forgot-

1. FoG is always right.

2. If you have massive evidence that FoG is wrong, see #1.

3. If the Bible disagrees with FoG, see #1.

-Ben

[Measure_for_Measure]

Left Behind (LB) data:
Cloud Ten claims that consumers spent more than $41 million buying nearly 2.6 million copies of the video, which depicts the Biblical apocalypse and rapture. Another $6.9 million has been spent on the rental of more than 2.1 million copies of the movie on VHS and DVD, according to VSDA Vidtrac.
Source: http://www.videobusiness.com/hettrick.asp

For Amazon, LB came in at 16 for the year 2000, beating out “The Wiggles - Wiggle Time” by one notch. At Buy.com, LB was ranked #43 for the year, sandwiched between The Tigger Movie (2000) and Braveheart (1995). It didn’t make the Tower top 50 VHS list and the heathens at Blockbuster only list the top 10 for 2000.

I was unable to locate quarterly data at the site. Still, considering the rather modest level of buzz LB generated at videobusiness.com, I seriously doubt whether it was numero uno in Q4 2000.

[pldennison]

*Originally posted by FriendofGod *
**pldennison said:

Maybe they’ve been successful because what they say constitutes a much better way for human beings to live and relate to each other than your silly, antiquated fantasy world.

Or maybe if you repeat a lie long enough and make it sound good, people will buy into it. Seriously. Like Satan in the Garden of Eden. **

Or, like, “A man who was born to a woman who never had sex died and came back to life. Oh, and he was god and had magical powers.”

Of course, if you were black, or a Communist, or gay, living in the 50s was akin to living with a sign that said, “Please, beat me up!”

Fair point, sort of. You’re slightly exaggerating, but the point is taken … not everyone had a wonderful experience in the 50s.

Actually, I’m not exaggerating at all. Do you understand what blacks and gays and leftists went through in the 50s? They could have only hoped that the worst thing in their lives would be not being allowed to read their Bible at work or getting made fun of in a stupid cheerleader movie that nobody saw.

The only conclusion I can come too is that your mother and her friends actually grew up on the set of the “Leave it to Beaver” and “Ozzie and Harriett” programs. I mean, really, do you think none of us know anyone who lived in this era? Who do you expect to swallow your tripe?

Whoa, cowboy. Just because your parents didn’t have a wonderful life doesn’t mean my mom didn’t. Why do you so quickly assume that just because your parents didn’t experience it that other people didn’t?

I don’t. I’m saying that the experience of your mother is not representative of what life was really like in the 50s, and if you think otherwise, I really recommend you check out some of the reading on the era that people are recommending. You’ve demonstrated before that you were woefully uninformed on even recent American history; I see no reason to believe that that is not the case here.

Regarding MLK Jr:

a man who, even in the face of all his wonderful accomplishments in the field of civil rights, was repeatedly unfaithful to his wife. Imagine that–people are fallible, and born-again Christians are as bad as the rest of us

Truthfully I’ve heard nothing concrete on this subject, just rumors and hints but nothing clear cut. If it’s been proven beyond a doubt, so be it. You last line is partly true but seems tinged a bit: yes people are fallible, Christian and non. When you say BAC’s are “as bad as the rest of us”, are you trying to take this and other examples and paint all of Christianity with them?

Well, yes. It’s true. People are human, even after they’re “born again.”

[Dangerosa]

You all may be amused to know that this has kicked off a betting pool at my husbands place of employment “How many Playboy videos outsold Left Behind in 2000?” My husband has his money on 5. I’ll let you know if I hear the results.

Also, I don’t have a cite for this (as PLD pointed out - Billboards info is subscription only, so I am getting this info from someone in the industry, at BestBuy btw), but the top selling video for 4th quarter was most likely Gladiator. I say most likely, because it kind of depends on how you look at sales numbers (i.e. gross over volume, all home video or simply DVD or VHS, US Sales, US Sales in national chains, etc). Amazon.com sold more than a quarter million copies the first week you could order it - and that was pre-release. Using the fact that they parse the numbers so many ways, LB might have been the top selling home video sold by Christian bookstores (although I bet Veggie Tales outsold it there - have you guys seen those?..really well done, and selling like hotcakes not just among the church set).

[vanilla]

Ah Veggie Tales.
My son has most of them. I love em too.

[Freyr]

**FriendofGod wrote:

Or maybe if you repeat a lie long enough and make it sound good, people will buy into it. Seriously. Like Satan in the Garden of Eden.**

Satan wasn’t in the Garden of Eden. There was the talking snake/serpent. Can you back up this assertation about Satan (the Truly Evil Dude, not the poster) being the Talking Serpent? A mainstream Christian or Jewish theologian would be fine.

[Modian]

I am reminded of the scene from “The West Wing” I got to see again recently: <snip>

That’s the only time I watched West Wing, and I loved that part. He really let her have it, and completely shot her down.

As to the whole pro/anti Christian portrayel in movies, I haven’t seen anyone mention Contact yet with Jodi Foster. I’m not sure which side that would fall on, but it had a whole theme on Christians vs Scientists and who should be the one to man the pod.

I was going to say more, but it just turned into a rant against the Christians in the movie.