A movie that might change your life, etc., Part 2

FoG replied to me: *To wit: you complain that Christians (at least conservative Christians who share the particular brand of Christian values that you support) are often portrayed negatively in the media. But when others complain about negative behavior on the part of actual self-identified Christians, such as […], you simply respond dismissively that “those people aren’t real Christians.”

Read back over it. I never said they weren’t real Christians, I just cast doubt on the assumption that they were. Anyone can say they’re a Christian. One of you who are atheists could claim to be a Christian. I read an unintentionally hilarious article at a friend’s house one time … it was in one of those women’s mags, don’t ask which cuz I don’t recall … but I happened to notice a cover article on going undercover in the abortion wars … and it was about a woman who pretended to be a Christian and joined a church and prayer meetings and the whole nine yards, just to get inside info. It was funny. My point: I’m not saying they weren’t backslidden Christians, just that you shouldn’t assume they are. *

I see. And by the same token, you shouldn’t assume that all the Communist officials who are persecuting Christians (and other religious sects) in the People’s Republic of China aren’t really devout Christians who are pretending to be opposed to Christianity so that the news of their oppressions will mobilize the army of the faithful and destroy the power that tyrannizes over them. This is just as likely as the proposition that most self-identified Christians who do hateful things might really be undercover atheists. Which is to say, both suggestions are equally absurd.

No, FoG, while I agree with you that it is wrong to portray Christians in the media just through negative stereotypes (though like most other posters here, I dispute your claim about the extent to which that’s really happening), I cannot agree that fairness to Christians requires us to refrain from assuming that the vast majority of self-identified Christians who behave in a negative way should legitimately be classified as Christians. A “bad” or “uncharitable” or “un-Christian” or “backslidden” Christian is not the same thing as a **non-**Christian.

In other words, they may be bad apples but they’re still in your barrel; you must bear the burden of dealing with them as co-religionists, however unworthy or misguided they may be, rather than attempting to duck it with suggestions that perhaps they’re not really your co-religionists at all. Don’t try to palm them off on me, I have enough to do bearing the burden of dealing as co-religionists with all the bad and uncharitable and backslidden atheists. :slight_smile:

I did – 02-20-2001 01:21 PM (my time), middle of the previous page, introducing the notion that scientists are shown as antagonists (or negatively, at least) more often than Christians.

How many times do I have to tell you about your selective filter? You are remembering the examples of the media showing Christians behaving badly, of people on the extremist fringes who don’t represent the mainstream. Here’s a newsflash: They do this to everybody.

When you watch the news, do you see reports of USPIRG lobbyists sitting in Senatorial chambers, discussing coral bleaching and landfill seepage and clean-coal technology? Of course not. You see crazy-ass environmentalists chaining themselves to railroad tracks, putting spikes in trees, and putting their ships between whales and harpoon guns. Do you see reports of politicians poring over hundreds of pages of excruciatingly detailed and painfully boring tax policy? No, you see stories about the laws they break, the stupid things they say, the sexual habits they enjoy. Do you see the fifty million schoolchildren who go to class, sit quietly, read the material, and do homework in the evening? No, you see the one screwed-up guy who was caught making pipe bombs in his basement. Do you see the thousands and thousands of police officers who enforce the laws, protect the population, and carry out their duties with fairness and good judgement? No, you see the one bad apple who takes bribes and plants evidence. Do you see the thousands of college instructors who develop their curricula, read and correct student material, and deliver lectures every day? No, you see the one who made the bad choice of engaging in sexual contact with a student. How about the hundreds of thousands of actors who memorize their lines, perform in theatres and on film and TV sets, and don’t make very much money? No, you see stories of the latest bad boy getting drunk and punching a security guard.

I don’t know how much longer you want me to go on like this. Suffice to say, your “specific example” bites the dust, because viewed objectively, the news media will always, always always always, choose onee extremist over a hundred mainstream representatives, regardless of whether it’s a Christian anti-abortion demonstrator or an NFL player who popped off with some thoughtless anti-Semetic remark. Why? Because it makes better television, and increases the ratings. Think about this clearly for a moment: If you’re a television news director, and you have film of ten people jumping up and down, screaming, and getting arrested, and you have five hundred people standing quietly off to the side, which one do you use? (No peeking at the right answer, now.) You have a responsibility to the station’s ownership to increase your ratings as much as possible. You have footage of a near-riot, and you have footage of a quiet, peaceful demonstration. Which one gets you the higher ratings? That’s the one you use, without question.

I have repeatedly pointed out your selective filter, the reality tunnel which is clearly warping your objectivity. You see everything through the filter of “the world hates Christians, everybody’s out to get us.” You are therefore unable to see that scientists are bad guys in movies more often than Christians are. You cannot see that the news shows the harshest Christian abortion marchers because the news always shows the harshest element of every single story. You show a totally astonishing lack of awareness of what’s going on in China, and the government’s horrifying crackdown on practitioners of Falun Gong.

I’ve said this over and over and over again: Your perception is skewed, as is clear from objective analysis of your so-called examples. I’m not attacking you. I want to help you see more clearly. I want you to open your eyes. You have a painfully limited view of the world, one which is inaccurate and which is leading you into erroneous conclusions. If you can learn to see the world more accurately, you will have a much, much stronger foundation for your faith than the gauzy, veiled half-truths and misconceptions on which you currently rely. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

Blister your abdomen, Mercutio, I just finished posting a carefully-crafted response to FoG’s reply to me when I noticed your previous post containing a variant of a request to him to dismount from his indolent donkey. Mille tonneres! don’t you know that that is the sort of thing that (besides possibly getting you in trouble with the mods) will cause the delicate sensibilities of FoG’s ISP to block out the remainder of the page, causing untold bother afterwards as people try to reconstruct for him the points that he missed? Name of a name of a name, can you please attempt not to be such a, an intemperate and hot-blooded pottymouth in future postings? I implore all posters to take extra care in observing the special etiquette requirements of a dialogue with FoG and to replace all unseemly epithets with inoffensive phrases like “spleen-inducing” and “unparalleled in its bovine impenetrability” and “a trolley car should grow in your stomach.” This will not only preserve the flow of the conversation but be a lot more fun to read. Thank you. :slight_smile:

**FriendofGod wrote:

Since you guys keep asking for cites on anti-Christian bigotry, I had to pass this article along when I saw it in this week’s World magazine. (Disclaimer: one example isn’t "proof. I know that. Save your breath and don’t holler “ONE EXAMPLE ISN’T PROOF!” I know that. I just said it.) For sure, AS I see examples I will certainly pass them along.**

Foggie, to cut to the chase, THIS IS PRECISELY THE POINT WE’VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE TO YOU!!

You can come up with a few examples of Christians being portrayed in a negative way throughout the media, but that doesn’t support your basic assumption that there’s an ongoing, systematic attack of Christianity (especially Fundamentalist Christiants) in the media.

In the time period you describe (about 1970 to the present) you’ve given a handful of examples of Christians being portrayed negatively or facing discrimination. That’s some 30 years in TV, movies, radio and print media. So, over a period of 30 years, across 4 different fields of medium, you’ve given 5 examples (I think it’s 5, someone correct me if I’m wrong) of Christians being portrayed poorly. That works out to ONE poor portrayal every 6 years. That hardly supports the idea of wide-spread, systematic Christian bashing. When you add the numerous positive portrays we’ve given you; TV shows and movies that show Christians in a positive light, I think it tears your assertion to shreds.

I think the big reason why FoG thinks Christians are persecuted more by the media is because

(1) He remembers (vaguely) instances where Christians are shown in a poor light in the media, and
(2) He doesn’t remember when blacks/women/Jews/gays/everyone else are shown in a poor light in the media.

Though I have to add, the only negative Christian stereotype I’ve seen all week has been FoG’s own evasive answers and half-baked responses to this thread (and others)…

Actually, I’m sure that “asshole” is perfectly acceptible to FoG’s ISP. After all, the word was used by devout Christian George W. Bush back during the campaign to describe a New York Times reporter. (“Major-league asshole” was the term, as I recall.) There wasn’t much of a response from his Christian Right supporters, so I guess they’re fine with that.

Dr. J

Freyr wrote:

To be perfectly fair to FriendofGod, David B has asked him numerous times to provide “a specific example” of Christians being portrated in a negative light in a movie or TV show.

At least FoG is providing an example now, even if it’s not a very convincing one.

Dr. J: Actually, I’m sure that “asshole” is perfectly acceptible to FoG’s ISP.

Oh. I am covered with rue. I am an indefensibly unperspicacious ignorama. Sorry.

(But you have to admit that pseudo-swearing is more fun! :))

Huh huh, you said “unperspicacious”!

They are also merely things that atheists DON’T do.

Are you seriously suggesting that you cannot define a person by his/her actions? I say a murderer is someone who commits murder. I say a thief is someone who steals. I say an atheist is someone who does not believe the god of the Bible exists. (And probably no other god, for that matter.) And I say a Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins and prays to Him.

What’s your definition?

Friend of God

If I gave that impression then I apologize. It isn’t what I meant. Being trapped in a situation, any situation, is a bad thing. The fact that a woman (outside of many exceptions that pretty much prove the rule) couldn’t choose a career over a family, or couldn’t choose both, is a bad thing.

It’s about freedom of choice. Women in the 1950’s didn’t have it, and that paints a slightly less rosy picture of the decade than you are trying to present.

I really don’t think that describes the current situation. How about “it’s really none of my business to point out your ‘sins’ and how am I to define the term anyway, so I’ll let you live your life my way, and I’ll live it mine. Just don’t try to force your lifestyle on me or ask me to approve of it.” That sound better to everyone?

I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. Is it: [list=a][li]That in the 50’s, men were responsible for keeping things from getting physical, and this is “not what god intended”. []That now men are responsible from keeping things from getting physical and that this is not right. []That it’s the man’s responsibility to keep things from turning into a wrongful sexual relationship, and that his responsibility is right. Other.[/list][/li]I’ll reserve further comment on this until I understand where you’re coming from.

And I’m saying that the physical realities of her situation, the morning sickness, the pain and suffering of childbirth, are punisment enough for her. Her life is harsh enough already, and she will be embarrassed and ashamed. It’s not our duty as Christians to make an example out of her, but to help her get back to some place here she can put her life back together. God willing, in slightly better shape that is was before. Besides, making pregnancy=sin is a bad idea. Women are impregnated by rape, sometimes, they shouldn’t be judged at all. And it also implies that sex outside of a committed relationship isn’t sinful if she doesn’t get pregnant.

Btw, it was wrong of me to drag abortion into this, especially after I criticized you for dragging in “another GD” in the same post. I apologize.

No it’s not about that at all. You were painting the 1950’s as a golden age. I was claiming that this was not so. It’s a fallacy, and a dangerous one at that, to point at any era as a moral model. There has never been an era I’d rather live in than right now, even putting aside window dressing such as technology or medicine.

Indeed. It may very well be (it also sounds alot like “Nothing Sacred”, but let’s put taht aside for the moment…). So then, you are saying that you are not put off by frank depictions of sex, drug use, violence and other touchy subjects? In order to be at all honest, the show would have to display them all, admit taht they are tempting, and that they don’t mean instant death. If that’s in, I’d watch that show in a heartbeat. But I doubt it’s as rare as you claim it is.

A churchgoing, prayerful family that makes mistakes but ultimately searches for what’s right and loves one another deeply? That’s a shame. I’m very sorry.

Freyr-

I’m not sure how cannonical it is, but the serpent-Satan connection is an old one. Milton made it in Paradise Lost.

Ok, This one is old, too. But I had to get to my copy of The Way We Never Were, Stephanie Coontz’s wonderful book on American families. I spend so much time debunking this one that my copy of the book falls open to page 39 (paperback edition, in case anyone is checking my cite in hardcover).

Referring to the 1950s … “Teen birth rates soared. reaching highs that have not been equaled since. In 1957, 97 out of every 1,000 girls aged fifteen to ninteen gave birth, compared to only 52 out of every 1,000 in 1983.” She also says that the proportion of white brides pregnant at marriage doubled during this time.

So, FoG, not only would people disagree with your view that teenage pregnancy has increased since the 1950s, they will provide cites to prove it was otherwise.

Oh, and my grandmother was a single teenage mom. Your mother’s life may have been puppies and roses (and I am sincerely happy it was), but its very hard to generalize from one person - or even one person and her circle of friends.

I don’t have time to do marathon responses tonight, but I did want to correct an error I made that several of you have already pointed out, regarding stats for the LB movie.

Dangerosa said:

pldennison said:

No explanation to give, I just flat out goofed. I’ll admit I was sincerely baffled by your stats, so I went back to the LB movie board and another related board, and one other member recalled the post from last fall that I was remembering, and it was in fact what you are describing - that it beat Toy Story 2 at Amazon.com and I believe one other online retailer. I don’t know how long it lasted. I’m reaaaaly glad you guys got me to check this out! I should know better ('specially around here) about double checking the facts when they are unclear. Thanks!

By the way, in the course of my research, a posting friend pointed out this very interesting article on the movie, and it gives more concrete stats on how it did:

http://www.videobusiness.com/hettrick.asp

I just realized in the post I just made, I didn’t 100% clarify why I thought it was #1 in the 4th quarter. Obviously I got things jumbled up, but I could swear that last fall on the LB Movie website, one of the moderators posted a topic in which they talked about how LB did in the 4th quarter, and that #1 was mentioned in there somewhere. I can only guess that it was that amazon thing, but I don’t know. I have the feeling I was thinking of the press release that pldennison mentioned all along, or perhaps a discussion of it on the lb movie board. At any rate, sorry for the goof and thanks for keeping me on my toes ;).

…but he has read through all eight mind-numbing pages of this thread. (What was I thinking?!)

A few odds and ends:

More sex on TV now than back then:
This has been a function of decreased government regulation of television, with the result that the free market now decides what plays. (You guys are for the free market, right, FoG? Until it favors immorality - I know. :rolleyes:) And the market has decreed that people like sex. (Surprise.)

If this bothers you, and you want the name of a culprit in this drama, the man who essentially deregulated the airwaves, and cleared the way for the tide of smut you abhor, was Mark Fowler, St. Ronald Reagan’s FCC chairman. Which really means Reagan’s the man to blame. (Cite: The War Against Parents by Cornel West and Sylvia Ann Hewlett. I’ll also cite my own memory; I’ve been an FCC-watcher since 1979.)

I’m waiting for y’all to be outraged. I’ve been waiting for 20 years, and it doesn’t look like it’s gonna happen. After all, you folks will blame pretty much anybody but Ronnie.

Christian YA Authors and related subjects:
Madeleine L’Engle has been mentioned - briefly. But she’s written dozens of books for the YA market in the past 40 years; her latest in the Austin series came out in the late 90s, IIRC. (And people of all ages will be reading A Wrinkle in Time until the language evolves to the point that it’s like reading Chaucer.)

Of course, there are fundies who claim it’s about witchcraft. :rolleyes:

And I’d like to drop Katherine Paterson (Bridge to Terebithia, Jacob Have I Loved, etc.) into that discussion. She’s also written numerous YA books over the late 20th century; extremely prolific, highly regarded, and still writing.

A couple of SF writers who include religion in one way or another: David Brin (especially in the first Uplift trilogy) and Joe Haldeman (especially in Worlds and Worlds Apart). I very much doubt Haldeman’s a Christian, but he uses religions of various sorts in ways integral to his plots. Brin may actually be a Christian, I don’t know for sure; there are sneaky things in his books that suggest that, but I may be reading stuff in. Also, the prolific Piers Anthony, who does both fantasy and SF, has written books with strong religious overtones, as has Stephen R. Donaldson, who is the child of missionaries, and it shows.

One movie that shows fundies in a bad light:
Footloose, where the heavy is the fundie preacher who leads the drive to ban dancing. Of course, his daughter, who is a believer but interprets Scripture somewhat differently, is one of the good guys. So you’ve got Christians on both sides in this one.

That’s all for now.

Has anyone mentioned Andrew Greeley? This Catholic priest has written dozens of novels about the power of God and the Catholic church in turning the lives of people around. I have read a few out of curiosity but find the characters the same in almost every story.

RT, way to name-check Katherine Paterson! Bridge to Terabithia hit me like a ton of bricks when I was in the 6th grade. What a terrific book!

BTW, since FoG brought up Sugar & Spice, one of the characters is extremely obsessed with Conan O’Brien. Everything she talks about involves him, and she is the subject of frequent mockery for it. Can we assume there is a concerted media attack being waged against Conan O’Brien? :rolleyes: Or maybe we should just assume that it’s a silly teen comedy that draws all its characters broadly?

Dangerosa wrote:

I hate to have to look like I keep stickin’ up for ol’ FriendofGod here, but:

1957 showed a higher teen birth rate in the U.S. than 1983. This does not necessarily mean that 1957 had a higher teen pregnancy rate in the U.S. than 1983. Recall that in 1957, abortion was largely illegal and therefore very difficult to obtain. There could have been just as many, if not more, teen pregnancies in 1983 than in 1957, if there were more teen abortions.

And which is generally worse?

I don’t think we’re going to settle that one in this thread, Brian. :rolleyes: