I think this is a complicated issue. Does the teen birth rate reflect teens who go away for a while and come back with a new sibling? And the usual feminist claim is that the abortion rate is more or less unchanged since Roe v. Wade (although many, many fewer women die from abortions, now that it’s safe and legal.) Plus, FoG probably feels that petting and oral sex are morally equivalent to vaginal intercourse- what were the rates for that?
While we’re at it, FoG, what do you think of Bush’s plan to deprive women in the Third World of condoms? The agencies in question are claiming that he’s going to send the abortion and infanticide rate sky-high, and you don’t have to be Einstein to know that they’re right. So do you support Bush’s action?
George W. Bush wants to put pressure on foreign nations to restrict access to condoms? Really? Good God. I knew he wanted to withdraw American financial support for international health agencies that offered abortion services, but condoms?! When did he make this barbaric announcement?
That’s actually not the stated purpose of his aid cuts. But it will be the practical effect. Foreign family planning services that receive US aid have been prohibited from directly using that aid money to provide abortion services since the Reagan administration. What the US aid did do was allow them to use their limited resources to provide contraception counseling. Without the US aid, they are more than likely going to go under, prompting more abortions and infanticides as the populations being served stop receiving that contraception counseling.
There’s been some discussion on this thread and its predecessor about whether the LB books are claimed to be prophecy.
The answer is, the LB folks (and I’m talking about the people who run the official LB website here) clearly don’t discourage that view; in fact, they seem to regard it as a Good Thing.
I got the following email a day or so ago from leftbehind.com:
Emphasis in original.
If it’s fiction, it isn’t reading the future. If it’s touted as reading the future, it’s being touted as prophecy, or something pretty close.
If some yokel on the NASCAR circuit puts that on his car, that’s not their fault. When they brag about it to the entire world, it becomes their message.
A marketing scheme for promoting a variety of Christian thought, I could buy. This is at least as heretical as Dr. Spong’s views, albeit from a different perspective.
When I got the e-mail, I told them to eliminate me from their mailings, since I had been banned from their board before making a single post. I should have swallowed my anger and read it with the careful perspective that RTFirefly clearly did.
Nevermind if they’re touting their books as prophetic, but am I the only one find the e-mail rather tasteless? People are emotionally hurting from losing their hero, let’s get in there with our propaganda! Of course, I’m hardly surprised.
Man! Talk about insular. That they would ban you from entering into theological discussions merely because you disagree with them reveals a mindset that disgusts me. Disallowing discussion and dissension on a message board? It’s especially disgusting that they would ban a poster that is as well-behaved as you are preemptively, merely because you have a different outlook. It seems to me that if they get rid of any dissenting viewpoints then their board will be nothing more than a mutual masturbation society, getting their mental rocks off on how right they all are.
No reason was ever given. Registration went through fine, and I got the auto-e-mail confirmation. But when I tried to post a couple of days later, I got the message that “your membership has been terminated.”
What Ptahlis says is purely hypothetical as an explanation, thought it’s the one I think is accurate. I didn’t try to register until after the Great New Years Eve Massacreee here, and the Administrator over there was quite well aware of who I was from my involvement here. But the reason, whatever it be, is not evident, unless we assume it from that background.
I too was a bit put off by the timing and tenor of the NASCAR email. I thought it was tacky and tasteless, but didn’t even think about the message they were supporting.
'Course, I also find it interesting that they think they can get a message out by emblazoning it on the side of a racing truck driven by a perennial also-ran. It doesn’t look promising to me, it just looks sad.
What, Randy’s worried that those bumper stickers that say “In case of rapture this car will be unmanned” will all come true and there will be out-of-control driverless racecars careening around the track smashing into non-Christians?
Yeah, I know teen birth rates and pregnancy rates are different things…this is one of my favorite examples of how to lie with statistics. But we have very fuzzy stats on teen pregnancy rates, birth rates, abortion rates, etc. Even in the present, check out Alan Gutmacher for the problems with putting together abortion stats…not very easy and probably not accurate. Another problem with these stats (i.e. teen pregnancy), in addition to Roe v. Wade, there is Griswold v. Connecticutt and (darn, can’t find reference book and have to get kids from daycare), the one giving unmarried people the right to birth control.
However, we do know from the stats I cited that teens were having sex in the 1950s (contrary to some peoples beliefs), in fairly large numbers and that they were not all married while doing it. (Unless you are willing to buy that there were hordes of 16 year old girls using the turkey baster method of conception).
The only way to KNOW what teen sexuality is like is to ask teens and get truthful answers. The first we’ve been doing for years. Eventually, a miracle will occur and we will get teens to tell the truth on surveys regarding their sex lives.
I don’t know if California has fixed this yet, but in the 1980s they figured their illegitamcy stats on whether mom and dad had the same last name on the birth certificate. Anyone see any problems with that?
I don’t think you could find a single fan of the Left Behind series that would say they believe the series is “prophesy” in any way shape or form. The writers and promoters wouldn’t either. Here is the quote you referred to:
You said:
I disagree. This is akin to a Christian reading LB and saying, “And just think, this could happen any day now!” They don’t mean, “Just think, Hattie Durham is going to tell Rayford Steele people are missing”, et al. It just means this is a fiction series BASED on prophesy that is going to actually happen someday.
It’s like a historical fiction novel, only the history in the story is future history, not past history. It’s the prophesy the fiction is based on that people refer to when they say things like that. I see “Read the Future” and that’s entirely what I get from it … a fictionalized account of very real events that will happen one day.
Polycarp:
If I had to guess, I’d say this happened for one of two reasons:
The famous New Years Eve massacre you referred to. I seem to recall a blanket ban on anyone registered here due to the chaos, so that might have stayed in place and no one ever removed it.
A glitch. Seriously. There have been huge problems on the LB board in the past 6 - 8 months. You aren’t the only one who has had similar problems The Admin has been getting better but it still isn’t like it used to be. So don’t worry, it isn’t the Grand Right Wing Conspiracy ;).
That’s a rather “glass is half empty” view. You are assuming motives here in a huge way. I can say that I’m excited about it. You’ve got to realize, most of the people who get this email are born again believers who will instinctively understand what this means. When people go through horrible tragedy, sometimes they are more open to receive God’s love and mercy than at any other time. This is an opportunity to possibly reach some of those people.
Skulking around the NASCAR site some more, it appears that Rob Morgan was slated to run in the MacDonald Racing car and that Randy MacDonald’s health appeared to be in some question.
Morgan finished the race 27th, but in a Ford (whereas MacDonald runs a Chevy). So I don’t know what the heck happened.
By the way, FriendofGod, I missed some parts of this thread. Could you tell me again who it was (and where I could look it up) that came along before John Darby and yet espoused the notion of a Rapture that happens right before the Tribulation events in the Book of Revelation, and claimed there were Scriptural passages to back it up?
Hey tracer. I never actually quoted from the book passage. The following comes from “Are We Living in the End Times” by Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins. It’s a Bible study book companion to the Left Behind series. These are several quotes from pages 112-115.
Interesting stuff! I can’t say I’m a believer in the Pre-trib rapture, but this book made some strong arguments and knocked down some false beliefs of mine. I would say I am about 50/50 now between Pre and Post Trib, as opposed to before when I leaned toward Post Trib.
By the way, the notes for the quote above refer to the book Apocalypse by Grant Jeffrey, 1992.
I know that; VastRightWingConspiracy is a Calvinist with a taste for Pizza and IBC, who posts some interesting ideas from time to time!
But I realize LBMB has some serious problems going on, and that’s why the “measured” post above avoiding buying into Ptahlis’s idea that they didn’t want me because of my ideas. Though there may be something to that, given that my registration “took” and was not refused but I was then banned before posting.
Hey, a thought: either here in GD or over in the Pizza place, start a thread on the sequence of events you understand to be what’s prophesied for the Last Days, with Bible quotes. I for one would be interested, and while I keep hearing Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib and all the other jargon associated with it, it just so happens that I’m not fully cognizant of what’s supposed to precede and follow what. And I’d venture to guess that there are a bunch of people (JAB for one, I’d bet) who are skeptical but curious about the full story in sequence, and would not mind arguing out what the meaning of the passages might be. Sound worthwhile?
Just offering my opinion. I’ve just finished reading the first book, Left Behind. I’ll admit to a biasis before I start, but I did truly try to get ‘into’ this book.
Overall, I found this to be a very average book. The story and plot are nothing spectacular. The characters seem more cookie-cutter-ish; they really have no depth, they’re just acting roles in a plot that moves along at a slow pace to a predictable ending. Since we all know the plot, there are no surprises, nothing to keep the interest of the reader. We know why the people disappeared, we know who the Anti-Christ is and we know what will eventually happen.
The authors have done nothing to make us want to keep reading or engage us; they’re only writing for a select audience who are thrilled to have their life-dream fulfilled. I could see this book re-written to have plenty of twists and turns to keep us guessing on what will happen next and how, but they (the authors) never considered this.
I begin to wonder if the Rapture did actually happen to the authors of this book whilst at the typewriter, their notes arrayed before them. POOF suddenly they’re gone leaving nothing but their clothes. Their agents show up, looking for them and find nothing; realizing they need to meet a deadline the agents hire 3rd rate hack-writers to fill in for the authors, using their notes. That’s the book; Left Behind.
Honestly, I’m thinking of renting the video and see how it translates to the screen; but I’m not holding my breath for some epiphany to happen.
