A note to the straight supremacists and those verbally beating the tar out of them

The BBQ Pit
61

I’m sorry this is boring you, but to me it’s engrossing. It is, after all, my life we’re talking about here, in a very real way. The attitudes I’m fighting here affect my future deeply.

Calling it a draw, as iampunha said, would be admitting defeat. The current status quo, which entails the oppression of homosexuals, is unacceptable. We’re fighting to make the world better, to gain acceptance, to fight ignorance, and that, to me, is exciting.

If people had listened to that sort of advice twenty years ago, we wouldn’t be nearly as far along as we are now; twenty years from now, I hope we’ll see gay marriage being completely normal. I hope the suicide rate for gay teens isn’t quite as staggeringly horrifying as it is right now. I hope the bigoted attitudes of straight supremacists are treated with as much reverence as those of the KKK and neo-nazis. I hope I can feel safe holding my boyfriend’s hand in a movie theater.

That’s worth arguing for, no matter how tiresome the opposition, no matter how many ignorant comments we have to deal with, no matter how many times we have to repeat the arguments that trump every single opposing point. It’s a fight we have to win.

62

Forgive me if I go sappy on all of you for a moment…

I just felt a deep, uninhabitable need to express my deepest utmost respect for the majority of the people who post on these boards due to the context of these threads. It honors me to see you all take on an issue that is so hard to deal with in person that most of us tend to either avoid it or seek out a crowd where we do not have to face such opposition.

I hope that anyone that is reading all this and hasn’t either lived the marginal life that anyone homo/bi-sexual has to, or experienced it at close quarters understands that this is not just opinion, or belief that is being expressed, but real life struggle with one self and society that in the worst of cases comes down to life or death.

Love to you all

Sparc

63

Can I ask for a rephrasing of that? I’m sure you didn’t mean it like that, but I think looking at things as if there was a ‘straight side’ and a ‘gay side’ is a Bad Idea. Sides seems to imply one against the other, which isn’t and shouldn’t be the case.

Sorry for the nitpick, but I think it’s important.

64

gobear, where exactly did I display any hate towards gay people or anyone else for that matter? Please show me. I don’t recall it at all. You need to get your facts straight. If I show any hate at all, it is not because the person is gay!

65

Jersey,

You don’t get it do you? The fact is that you have time and again labeled homosexuality as a sin. By extension that means that it should be avoided, and is unnatural. Read Libertarian’s posts in this thread about arousal and desires. By saying what you have, however well meant it was, you are attacking the very essence of the people that are that way. As I have said before, it is like saying that a specific skin color is a sin, what can we do about it? Nothing!

It’s worse than condemning you for being a Christian. That was a choice you made, your sexual orientation wasn’t.

Sparc

66

Gee, Jersey, aren’t you the one who drew the comparison between gay sex and playing with a rabid dog?

However nicely you phrase things, (and you don’t phrase them very nicely, do you? Your comments to Jodi and Kirkland in that other thread were marvels of smarmy condescension) your position on this matter is hateful. You’re advocating the continued oppression of an entire class of people, based on a twisted interpretation of a handful of biblical passages. The fact that you don’t see it as hateful speaks volumes about your misapprehension of what love really is.

67

Is this just fundiestm ?
Don’t Most American religions speak against homosexuality?
What is the Mormons take on it?
I, myself, am in a non-denominational church, but the pastor has already meantioned something about it (homosexuality being a sin) and it wasn’t even on topic!
How do I find a nice liberal church??

68

The Unitarian Universalists are always a friendly bunch…

Esprix

69

I never said it was boring, ** MrVisible**. I said that the arguments are getting no where. I merely suggested that we move on to other things and let the tempers cool down a bit.

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You can’t be serious. Your posts have expressed nothing but hate for gay people and the constant threat of (nonexistent) hellfire and damnation for following the deepest dictates of our hearts. You do[/] remember when you compared gay people to rabid dogs, right? Moreover, you have taken it upon yourself to condemn ME, my feelings, my deepest emotions as sin, based on selective readings from your Bible. You ignore the Levitical prohibitions on eating bacon and oysters and the Pauline injunctions against women disputing religious matters, but you’re OK with the homophobic prejudices of an ancient pack of nomadic sheepherders.

Not half a century ago, the same Bible you wield as a weapon now was used to justify white racial superiority and to ban racially-mixed marriages. “Miscegenation” was condemned as a sin and a violation of God’s order to keep the races separate. 150 years ago, the same Bbile was used to justify black slavery as God’s divine ordinance. Surely you don’t endorse those interpretations? So why do you persist in ignoring the posts of fellow Christians pointing out flaws in your views of the teachings of the Bible? Why do you persist in hating gays and wishing ill to us?

Have you no sense of shame?

71

The hatred that’s being advocated by the straight supremacists can only exist in darkness. If nobody questions them, goes to the root of their arguments to find the hatred that lies at the heart of them, then they will continue to flourish.

What’s happening here is that, given the opportunity to explain themselves, they’ve come up with no reasonable explanation for their continued opposition to gay equality, and they’ve revealed themselves for the scared, hateful, ignorant dogmatists they are, time and time again. Reading what they post, no-one could be convinced that their opinion holds any merit whatsoever. And so, I hope, people who may not have considered their stance on these issues are being exposed to the realities of straight supremacist thought, and being repelled.

Of course the arguments are getting nowhere; the bigots don’t have any arguments, just a distaste that they justify espousing through a selective and biased interpretation of their scripture. Such points don’t argue well; they can just be restated. But shining the light on their intellectual and moral bankruptcy is, in my opinion, serving a very useful purpose.

72

JerseyDiamond you didn’t care for my comment in the other thread and that’s fine, but truly, I marvel at your inability to put yourself in someone else’s position.
In an odd way this has reminded me of the Great Mirror Incident a couple of years ago when my son was three. I had a mirror in the bathroom which disappeared; I asked son and husband if they knew where it had gone, both denied any knowledge. My son develops a fad for keeping his bedroom tidy and asks if he can hoover his bedroom himself. I’m a bit suspicious but let it go. A couple if weeks later I say I must give his bedroom a proper clean and I start to get all the toys out of the way. Now, as I move his giant toy panda out of the way he gets a little hysterical and begs me to leave it alone. Yes, that’s right, broken mirror has been hidden under panda’s bottom.
Now this was just a little broken mirror but my son was terrified and this broken mirror preyed on his mind for two weeks. Supposing instead he was a teenager and had a rather bigger issue. Suppose he was gay and lived in fear of me finding out? If he was afraid that I would think he was evil, abnormal, a horrible unnatural person? That he was afraid everyone would think that?
Look, I’m obviously not talking about mirrors really; I’m talking about intentionally hurting the feelings of living, breathing, human beings. Blithely dismissing another person’s pain astounds me, however “nicely” you put it.

73

RedDevil, I don’t think you understand.

I have read the posts of others on the board and I would never hope that Andygirl or anyone else should go through such pain.

I have never advocated any harm to anyone for any reason.

I do understand your mirror analogy. I too have gone through similar situations. The problem here is that everyone tries to make me into this monster because I will not agree with something that makes them happy or something that they see as ok. I was never rude to Andygirl when I met her. As I was sitting next to her at a dopefest dinner, I was not thinking about her being gay. I enjoyed her conversation and she is a lovely girl.
I would never wish harm to her. Just because I didn’t write an " I love your story and it made me cry and thank you for sharing" post, doesn’t mean I was dismissing her pain. I am sorry for her pain. That does not mean I am going to change my beliefs. I am not one of those people that will say happy happy things just so I can be one of the guys. The only person I need to accept me is Jesus. If you don’t like me, it’s not because I was mean to you, it will be because I will not agree with you. If I do not agree with your beliefs, rest assured you will not see me swearing at you, telling you Jesus hates you or wishing harm to you. This is exactly what some of the people on this board do when they say they are fighting ignorance and hatred
:confused: PUHLEASE!

One of my jobs is to share the gospel with everyone.
I do this not only because the Bible tells me to, but because I want the best for their future. Earthly desires are something we need to leave behind. If you love the desire so much that you cannot give it up, that means the desire means more to you than God does. **

Of course the lie doesn’t look like a lie if you don’t want it to. Isaiah said “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”

1:26-27** For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
[/quote]

Even if I believed that homosexuality is not a choice, I would believe that you should not act on it.

gobear, I am still waiting to see where I expressed hate for gays. As for hell, that’s not up to me, and I never said it was, unless of course you can show me where I said it is up to me.

As for rabid dogs, you guys do know what analogies are, right? Or do you take everything negative to heart? :rolleyes:
Again, please show me where I condemned your feelings and where I have condemned you gobear. I think you have that confused with condemning your behavior. Another thing gobear, I don’t need to look just at Leviticus to know Homosexuality is wrong. I don’t know why you even assume that.
We are to allow the superiority of the New Covenant (the New Testament) to govern our lives today. The Old Covenant (Old Testament) is not binding on man today. Paul makes this very clear in Galatians.
They may have used the Bible as justification for black slavery, but that does not mean that the Bible said for them to have black slaves. One of the major problems with slavery 150 years ago in the US was that it was exclusively rascist. In Bible times, slavery was an economic system. Jews had Jewish slaves, it wasn’t about race. I don’t like slavery and would not want it now, but it was what they had to do then. Technological developments have eliminated the need for slaves.
gobear, just because a so called fellow Christian finds fault with my views doesn’t mean they are right. You can call them the good christian all you want, but just because some people can be swayed by praise of this board doesn’t mean we all can.
I still don’t see where I wished harm to you, but I will wait for you to show me.

Attacking their very essence? Are these people not engineers, students, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, significant others, parents, nothing? Only homosexuals? Why do people insist on defining themselves by a single attribute? That’s ridiculous. If all you are is a “gay man/woman” then I feel sorry for you. Nobody is just one thing. Who you have sex with is not what defines you as a person, so stop pretending that it is.

Colossians 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

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Don’t be an idiot, if possible. Gay is my essence in that I am gay from the top of my head to the soles of my feet, and I am gay 24 hours a day, 365 days a year and 366 in leap year. You cannot condemn what is gay without condemning me too, and you cannot condemn homosexuality without condemning me as well. Any disavowal of the same is disingenuous coming from you. I’m sorry, but there’s just no gentle and loving way of telling someone that their sexual orientation is an abomination.

75

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”

76

I know you didn’t call me by name here JerseyDiamond, but I kind of feel you are talking to me and would like to address this.

My views have been changed here on this board, I admit that. Not my views of God or his word, but my views on how he wants us to act towards each other.

I feel the same way and I feel I’ve made it clear that I am a bible-believing Christian. But what I’ve come to realize is that they already know what the bible says. So why do we need to keep repeating it? Do you think it’s wrong for me to say I’m sorry to andygirl or Kirkland for the pain they have suffered and that I wish things were different for them and that people would be more loving and accepting of them? Like you said you were sitting next to andygirl at a Dopefest and treated her like you would anyone else.

So why does that have to be different here?

77

Jersey, I don’t have sex. At all. With anyone. I never have. I’m still gay, though. It’s not the only thing that I am, but it’s one of the traits that make me what I am. I wish you could understand that…that my being gay is part of the entire me, and that it’s a fundimental part of what I am. I wish you could understand that it’s something outside the realm of my choices, and that it’s not a lie. I have no idea how to do that, though, so I won’t say anything else.

78

Gee, I thought that a reasonable adult could determine that non-consensual sex had nothing to do with a discussion about homosexuality being a conscious choice.

I was right. Go to hell, Shodan.

79

Have you no grip on reality? She said that, as she accepts the Bible as the final authority on morality, and as the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination and a sin, she believes that it is so.

NOWHERE did she advocate any of the words try consistently to put in her mouth. Her belief that your actions are sinful is not hate, and it is NOTHING like condemning you, threatening you, oppressing you, etc, etc. You seem to need a big cross to nail yourself to, your little martyr complex is getting a bit out of hand.

Wields as a weapon? Did she bruise you? Did she use the Bible to hammer a stake through your head or something? GET A GRIP, dude!

Or, maybe you’d like to show me where she did advocate oppression, violence, murder, and damn you to hell, etc.

In other words, cite please?

80

Try to not be such a knucklehead, try just a little. A profession is a choice, as is who’s significant other you are, quite inappropriate to criticize people for, but still something they can change. Go ahead and give advice that someone should leave an abusive partner, or change profession, it’s sure as hellfire part of their current identity, but not in the same way as skin color, sexual orientation or what family they spring from or have spawned. Slam me for being my brother’s brother, or mother’s son and I’ll rip you apart just as hard as if you dare tell me that you have pretence to sit in judgment over what gender(s) I am sexually attracted to.

I don’t recall revealing my sexual orientation to you, so I would request you to not comment on what you have not been invited to comment on. In any case I don’t need your damnable pity.

Who I have sex with will definitely influence my current identity. What gender(s) I feel inclined to have sex with will most definitely be a substantial part of the essential me. As I said earlier if invited you might comment on my choice of partner, while his/her gender is off limits for your commentary. Which brings me to essence of my problem with you.

I don’t get you. You’re concerned for the salvation of others because they have sinned, when in fact you have damned yourself over and over again through the judgment that you pass, which is only up to your God to make according your own scripture. Instead of sitting in judgment over us others you might want to work on that Messiah complex of yours a little bit, since in the name of consistency you should believe that it will send you to Hell. I’d say that you need to do some repenting there, holier-than-thou-Jersey.

See it’s funny, after having thoroughly studied the scripture that you base your belief on I have decided that the basic morality that it dictates is worthy and suit me, so I have embraced it while I have discarded belief in God. You seem to have discarded the way scripture asks you to worship Him while you continue to embrace belief in Him. If I know your God right he doesn’t take very lightly to that kind of behavior.

Witnessing is not about reading the book to me, and pretending that you have the key to understanding it. Try convince me that I should embrace Jesus and whatever you want, but if you do so by telling me how and who to be, and what I will be damned for, then I do believe that you have transgressed the covenant of your religion. Now go pray and do some good deeds by forgiving your next ones and seeing not their perceived sins, but their true redeeming qualities, it’s the Christian thing to do.

Sparc