A part of American Democracy successfully exported to Iraq!

OK, Ryan_Liam, I’m going to try to arrange this so it makes some middling sense. Please feel free to correct me if necessary.

For this sentence fragment

you offer this cite: Tribal Structures which does not state that other areas of Iraq were deprived of roads, electricity, and water systems in order to reward the tribes. Which is what you claimed.

These two sentence fragments

are so far unsupported.

This sentence fragment

is true, and is supported by this cite: http://ir04.events.pennnet.com/content.cfm?Navid=1656&Language=

This sentence

is so far unsupported.

Thanks for trying!

I agree with you, but for all the good we do, blowing up a family sets us back.

I think there are some good things being done, but I think the bad things are currently outweighing them.

Killing terrorists is not civil war. It is Law And Order. I would give Saddam the benefit of the doubt until he started treating me worse than my former dictators. If I could see steady progress of setting up free elections, I certainly would not claim that they were some sort of trick! That’s ludicrous. Especially if my former experience with elections was: “Vote for dictator or be arrested”.

That sounded like what FinnAgain was saying and he has not explained what else was trying to say instead.

It worked in America. After the American colonies won independence from Britain, over 100K refugees left for Canada, Britain, and the Caribeans. That was 20% of the total population. Our forefathers hanged a lot of loyalists. They had no patience for those who could not see themselves as part of a free America.

I don’t believe the Iraqis blowing up streets, churches, power lines and sewers, killing Iraqi policemen and national guardsmen believe they are fighting for liberty. They surely think they are in the right, but they don’t want liberty for all of their countrymen. Sooooo, the Iraqis who took part in Saddam’s regime or benefitted by proxy or who want to set up an Islamist state or for any other reason can’t see themselves as part of the new free Iraq will have to change, leave, or submit their bodies to fertilize the new Iraq. And the Iraqis are the ones who will have to ensure that.

That is soooo ignorant of the facts. Iraq’s power infrastructure had totally decayed due to Saddam’s misappropriation of the Oil For Food funds and his refusal to VERIFY that he had destroyed his WMDs. I know Riverbend talks about how bad the electricity problem is in Baghdad, but she knows well…although she doesn’t say so…that while before the invasion Baghdad had plenty of electricity and so did some other cities that were Saddam favorites, OUTSIDE of Baghdad and especially in southern Iraq, they had long lived with limited power each day.

Today Baghdad suffers along with the rest of Iraq with the problem of a degraded infrastructure that the terrorist keep damaging…you know, those terrorists with the worthless heads no one is supposed to blow off.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-07-baghdad-sabotage_x.htm

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/IraqWhereThingsStand/story?id=437852

http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A226_0_2_0_C/

And

http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A226_0_2_0_C/

Sorry.

???

There is some link between the decay of infrastructure and veifying the weapons status of Iraq?

Why I might as well suggest CMAR II has family and friends involved in the war effort, or has unshakeable faith in the rightness of America and that is why his posts are emphatically pro-American agression.

Simply an absurd suggestion.

Sorry about the double post. 'Twas an accident.

We’ve already had this dance

No, I’m not aware of any terrorists whose heads are supposed to be spared. Sorry.
But I will ask you this:

If we cannot protect the Iraqi infrastructure, how can we claim to control the country of help the Iraqis?
If we are unable to protect the Iraqi infrastructure, what does that say about our forces?
If we did not plan for this contingency, and we’re unable to deal with it, what does that say about our leadership?

Did we mismanage this because we were stupid, or because we’re sloppy, or a combination of both?

Saddam’s refusal to verify the destruction of his WMDs caused the sanctions to continue for 12 years. That is PART of the reason why the infrastructure was degraded. The fact that Saddam was spending the money sifted with the help of the UN and other countries on palaces and special privileges for his favorites and not the infrastructure was another reason.

Sorry. I didn’t figure that needed spelling out.

Based on that logic, I guess that means that Sevastopol is Saddam’s little sister or something.

Thank you, Ryan. I’ll pick at most of that tomorrow, though I’ll mention right now that in any country, if there is a limited supply of electricity, your capitol is going to get what it needs. That’s standard. If t’were only enough juice to supply Manchester or London, who would get it?

Striking a big blow for ignorance there.

At exactly what date did this request for documented WMD destruction first occur?

SH’s budgetting choices are just idle speculation.

PS: Don’t forget the US are the bad guys, the liars murderers torturers theives in this war.

Yes. It was made clear by me and others that the infrastructure was degraded and the only difference is the terrorists and the fact that Baghdad is now suffering with the rest of Iraq.

Did you not read the rest of the post?

It hasn’t been mismanaged. In 20 months we have conducted two of the three free elections in a Muslim Middle Eastern country in history. Rather than repeat myself, I’ll direct you here.

Say “Hi” to your big brother for me when you visit him in jail. :stuck_out_tongue:

So you are connected with the US military!

That it explains it:

“Men, your morale will suffer and you may die, if we tell the truth about Iraq. Therefore, today’s morale building sermon is as follows…” [/CMAR]

Sorry, doesn’t cut it here.

Even when theres money to invest in power and electricity plants? It was used as a weapon to ensure loyalty to the regime, Baghdad got it because Hussein lived there, and along with all the security apparatus.

So anyone with a pro U.S agenda regarding Iraq immediately equates us with being Imperialists, U.S army connections, working for the CIA, and whatever bullshits thrown at us?

I read what was addressed to me, I did not figure you’d be sniping at me in a conversation with someone else. I was wrong, so allow me to respond.

First, insurgent =/= terrorist.
Nobody in this thread has yet produced a single cite discussing the overall makup of the insurgency. The fact is, we just don’t know.

Second

Your ignorance is really not my problem, I have said what I have said, I have not said what I have not said. I don’t need to explain a position to someone too lazy to read the thread I’m afraid, it’s boring. But I’ll toss you a bone, here goes:

I’m not claiming anything about what they can or can’t handle, or what their society is or isn’t set up for. That’s a strawmen that some of y’all have been using to attempt to paint people who actually want to listen to the Iraqis, as racists.

The fact of the matter is, and you would know this if you’d read the thread, iraqis themselves answered that they did not want a western style democracy. That was one of the specific questions in a poll I’ve posted, go look it up.

We meant for this to happen?

Whee! Elections! Now show me the pragmatic good which has been done. Elections are oh so spiffy, but life sucks in Iraq for its citizens. But at least they get to vote. Panis et circenses.

Oh boy, elections! Let’s talk after they’ve actually had the damn things, and we see if the peace holds. But, your willingness to count a flock of chickens before you’ve built a coop is quite touching.

Moreoever, the Taliban was a regime which allowed global terrorism to flourish, but Sadaam’s was not. (please don’t bring up the promised but never paid offer of money to Palestinian suicide bombers, as if that had anything to do with American security anyway)

So you are asserting you don’t have any military connections in the family, ryan_liam?

In answer to your question: No. CMAR let slip. I thought it only courteous to inform the newcomer that his brand of deciet is already well represented on this board. So he probably has nothing to contribute and should save his money. Seemed the charitable thing to do. After all, only last week we had someone go so far as to suggest the US has an honourable military tradition and merit respect. The Cheek of it!

If you blow-up cars on the streets = terrorist. If you kill policemen = terrorist. Blowup powerlines, sewers, and your country’s resources = terrorist.

Oh! My mistake! You’re an idiot. And how does the current election resemble a “Western-style democracy” except the people are voting?

And your anxiousness to call the chicken dinner under-cooked when we have just started building the coop is a little sad.

Is that so?

And what to do when, as I’ve already proven, your country’s police are thugs who torture innocent people?
Wouldn’t that mean that the invasion set up a regime that’s aping the old one, and just as immoral?
Go back to sleep.

Actually, you’re the one behaving life a clown.

First, you haven’t read the polls, and you call me an idiot?
Second, Iraqis specifially said they did not want a western style democracy, that was the exact question they were asked and a majority said no.
Third, none of this points to your moronic strawman that anybody, at all, is claiming that they can’t “handle” freedom because they’re Arab of Muslim or whatever.
Fourth, shut the fuck up.

Bad analogy moron. The elections haven’t happened yet, I’m saying to restrain your optimism until we see the actual results, because currently the country is in chaos. You’re claiming that the very fact they’re happening is some sort of weird magic that’ll make Iraq a ‘good thing’. All facts on the ground point to continued chaos, why you think waving the magic election wand will solve things I don’t know.
Schmuck.

Blah blah blah. The 9/11 panel specifically said there was no credible link between Sadaam and AQ.

CIA report finds no Zarqawi-Saddam link

Swing and a miss.