A parting gift for the homophobes

Jersey Diamond, what a condescending load of shit you just posted. “I hope you seek help,” indeed. Looks to me like Kirkland has gotten plenty of help here on the SDMB on dealing with his rage toward you smarmy sacks of shit who presume to judge gays in the name of your God.

Didn’t you read what he posted? Or did you just see the vitriol and ignore the pain behind the anger? I think it’s the latter. You ought to try being reviled for who you are through no fault of your own and have that revulsion culturally reinforced, to whatever degree. Maybe then you could talk about “help.”

Everyone!

…where the wind comes sweeping down the plains

Brutus, this statement is completely, totally wrong. You may not have realized it when you posted, but the question of the morality of homosexuality is central to most gay peoples’ existence.

But now you know. Your accusation was incorrect, and offensive. This is the point in a conversation where a civilized person would offer an apology.

Just some friendly advice.

Actually I’ve changed my mind about you. I thought treating you with respect and discussing this issue with reason and logic would be a good idea and might do some good. Obviously I was wrong. My apologies to Kirkland and lissener.

I’ve been thinking and praying about this thread for the past few days, and I feel a need to respond to this. It’s not particularly part of the debate; I’m sorry for that.

Just because we aren’t questioning it at this moment in time doesn’t mean we haven’t, Brutus. I’d like to offer myself as an example.

For the sake of context, here’s a bit about me. I’m 20 years old, openly lesbian, and have been out of the closet for quite some time. I’m also a devout Methodist. I’m from Southern Delaware, and my family can pretty much be characterized as one of those that middle America can point to and say “Yep, that’s familiar.” Mom and Dad are both teachers; we live in suburbia with our requisite pets. M & D are centrists, leaning slightly towards Democrat. My elder brother and I are both model students- we were never troublemakers and have always excelled in academics, sports (him more than me), and the arts (me more than him). Middle class and white, in case that wasn’t obvious.

Mom and Dad were raised Congregationalist and Lutheran, respectively, but converted to Methodism at some point along the line. It’s what I was raised as, and in our family faith was a constant. What I mean is that even though we didn’t always talk about religion or go to church every week, our faith in God was an unquestioned assumption, something that was steady. We are Christian, this is right, this is what fits us. Growing up Mom always said that no matter what, we had each other and God.

So with this particular life comes a certain set of assumptions. One of them was that having a diverse (well, diverse for Southern Delaware) group of friends and ideas was worthy. Another one, a much stronger one, was that there were certain things “not in the family.” It’s well and good to have gay friends or black friends or what have you, but it’s not something that’s in the family. Does that make any sense? My parents are strong believers in the path of least resistance- they want our lives to be as easy as possible given the circumstances, and this means “sticking to our own kind” in terms of dating and not challenging all of those pervasive middle-class standards (Money is good, stuff is good, ect…).

I don’t remember when I first found out what gay people were. Sometime in grade school, probably- you know how playgrounds are. We even had gay neighbors next door, for a time, although I was young enough to not understand.

Gay people, more than any group that was not like me, upset me greatly. It felt wrong- the messages that I got from around me was that heterosexuality was the only option. You could have racial balance, you could have equality of the sexes. This was normal and to be sought after (my family are also social justice types). But being gay was something, well, different.

The Bible comes into this. I was not raised on Bible verses that condemned; Methodism tends to be more of a “Jesus loves you” sort of deal. Any particular verses that might endorse racism or sexism, for example, were never introduced into my worldview (or rather, when they were they were explained to be incorrect). Ones that condoned homophobia, though, were now and then, and never corrected. Being anti-gay wasn’t something that got you in trouble in school, unlike being racist. So it clearly wasn’t a bad thing.

Lord knows the media didn’t help. Mincing fairies, stomping bulldykes… they all tended to get killed off anyway, and they spread AIDS and did all sorts of icky things. And the idea of gay sex was frightening. I got the message clearly- while being gay wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, it certainly wasn’t good.

So by the time those formative years hit I was pretty well indoctrinated against homosexuality. Big shock, I know.

All though my youth I had crushes on girls. I didn’t think about them very much- I think that crushes/admiration of other people regardless of gender, especially teachers and others who were however much older, are pretty normal before you hit the double digits.

And then when puberty kicked in- early for me, I was nine when I got my first period- I became hyperconsious of other girls. But where my female friends became boy-crazy, I just didn’t get it. I could appreciate the asthetics of men, but there just wasn’t really any attraction. I played along, hoping that something would click.

In the meantime, it was convenient to dismiss my feelings for other women. I knew what a lesbian was by then, of course (this was when I was about twelve) but I wasn’t one. They were big and scary and looked like (and wanted to be) men. I had long hair and wore dresses. I might think girls were nice, but I did not look like what I thought a lesbian looked like, so I was not one.

In 7th grade one day I was sitting in science class thinking about how pretty Sharon, the girl who sat next to me, was. And then the clue fairy came 'round and hit me with a stick. I was a girl, she was a girl. This was bad and wrong and disgusting.

I couldn’t talk to anyone about this, so I turned to my faith. I prayed, I fasted, I read the Bible like a maniac. I did not want to be gay.

For a long time I would pray every night very simply- “Please God, I don’t want to be gay. Please change me, please make this go away…” Variations on a theme. I would often pray until I would fall asleep from exhaustion by my bed. My mom found me asleep sitting on my floor with my head on my bed often enough that she thought I was rolling out of bed on a regular basis.

I tried to like boys. I dated boys, I tried to admire boys, I tried to want them, and I kept on praying. Months and months passed, and it didn’t work. I became severely depressed. In time rumors went around about me and I was shunned by my peers; I became bulimic, suicidal, and isolated. I would take over the counter painkillers on a regular basis to try to get through the day. And still I kept on praying, and still I didn’t change no matter how hard I tried. I then tried to abandon my faith, but I couldn’t stop believing in God. There’s some things that you just can’t give up, and for me my faith was one of them. It was my rock, you know? In this time I went through a fundamentalist phase- those people that I associated with seemed so sure of themselves, their paths, and that God was with them, and I wanted that. But every time homosexuality came up, which it did often, I couldn’t stand to hear that it was a wicked sin. I was trying so hard, and the feelings kept coming. I could hardly stand it.

In January of 8th grade I tried to kill myself. Went downstairs at two in the morning, took out a knife, and held it against my wrist. The moon was out that night, and it was shining through the window. For some reason the light shining off the knife entranced me. I watched it for awhile- how long I don’t know- and then went back to bed. I always had associated God with light, and it seemed to me that there was a point to the moon shining that night.

Something had to give. I realized at this point that there were four options before me.

  1. God does not exist and I am gay.
  2. God does exist and hates me because I am gay, although I have tried my best not to be.
  3. God does exist and made me gay but never wants me to act on it even though not doing so was killing me.
  4. God does exist and made me gay and wants me to live my life serving Him as best I can and I might as well accept that and run with it.

Option four was the only choice.

With the help of some faithful friends, a lot of prayer, and what I felt was a pretty clear indication from God that I was going to be okay, I cleaned myself up, came out of the closet, and got out of my downward spiral.

It was hard on my family. I’d kept most of my depression from them, and we had a lot of fights and tears. It took our church’s minister to turn the family away from complete distintigration- she came in and starting talking to us about a variety of things that have already been mentioned in this thread. She told my parents that I was still their daughter and that God loved us all and did not want the family to fall apart.

I’m not the daughter that I thought I’d be. It took my parents- mom especially- years to accept me. We all still have our moments and trials. But now I’m proud to be yet another well-adjusted homosexual ™.

But if there’s anything that is central to my belief system (which yes, I still struggle with and think about and wrestle with), it is that I am who I am for a reason. I try to live my life as best I can according to how I think a Christian should live, although like everyone I falter often. But I do not falter because I love women- it is no more of a sin to me than breathing is. It’s just one of the things that make me who I am, just one of the traits that God chose to create me with.

I’m grateful for the insights into human nature that being gay has given me. I’m grateful for the community and for the women who I have loved. I wouldn’t change it anymore. I’m proud of myself, who I’ve become, what I’ve accomplished, and the work I do with other gay teenagers. And I feel like there’s a point to it all.

Like I said, I don’t like to talk about my faith very often. The journey that I went through and the conclusions that I reached are so personal that I have a hard time explaining them. But I hope that all of this mess that I’ve written makes sense to some of you and that you understand my reasons for sharing now.

Best,
Andy

Interesting. I generally assume that most gay people are just gay, no muss, no fuss.

I always figured gay is basically the same as straight, but you oogle guys instead of girls (if you are a guy).

**

Fuck you and your worthless pity.

You say as scum like you continue to work day and night to keep my love criminalized, my relationships unprotected by government, my job endangered and my friends and family indoctrinated in the lie that being gay is evil, that it is a choice and that God hates fags.

My world would be at peace were it not for people like you. People who use God as a shield for their hate, people who spread lies in the name of “Christ,” people who spread the bullshit bad news that being gay is a choice. You, your perverted and evil religion, your black heart and venomous soul, people like you are the reason the lives of gay people are difficult beyond the norm, dangerous beyond the pale.

Yes, you are. People like you, who buy into the bullshit and work to spread it, are the scum who created filth like fred Phelps, who push bigotted laws like the “defense” of marriage act, who turned my friend Todd from a decent person into a fundamenalist sack of shit. People like you. You and everyone who helps spread your lies are guilty for every act of violence, every evil law, every act of society, that punish gays for being honest, for admitting publicly who God made us to be. People like you are a cancer, not only on Christianity, but on society at large.

No, I’ve only been called an “abomination,” I’ve only been told that I’m perverted, I’ve only been called a liar for stating the truth, which is that I was born a homosexual and had no choice in the matter. And that’s just by Slut4Ever and UncleToby, and in the last few days.

People of your disgusting ilk spread anti-gay lies and bigotry all the time on this board.

Every lie you tell about gay people in general, is a lie told about me. Every slur your thorw at homosexuality, is thrown at me. Every act you or anyone else undertakes to stop the cause of gay equality, is a direct act of violence against me.

Kirk

I’m gonna jump in here and say when I read your post Kirkland1244 I was for lack of better words, in shock. I guess I’ve never really thought about how hard it is for someone who is gay to “come out” and how hard it is to live in a society where people do literally hate the acts that you do.

I have nothing to compare it to except the few experiences I’ve had with anti-semitism, which really still do not compare to what you have gone through. I’m so sorry you have to live in a world like this. I’m sorry people are so stupid and hateful. I see your anger and your pain and you have a right to feel that way. I didn’t like your last sentence about the bullet thing, but since I cannot possibly imagine what your life must be like, I can’t say I wouldn’t say the same things.

I hope you know that there are people in this world who do care and do not judge you for being you. You have really opened my eyes and my heart with that post and I thank you for that. My thoughts are with you and I hope in time, you can come to the point where it doesn’t matter what joe-blow on the street says or feels about you being gay, and just accept that you are who you are and be confident in that. I know the laws and prejudice will still be there, but I hope that you and people like you can overcome that and live a life in fairness and acceptance.

Peace be with you.

Oh my **andygirl **. I just read your post and it made me cry. I don’t have any more words to express the sadness I’m feeling right now and the embarassment that I didn’t know or even try to understand what it must be like to live in your shoes. :frowning:

Dear lack of a lord. Kirkland, please, take a deep breath. I realize that this is the Pit, and that I would be ranting with just as much vitrol, but you sound like you’re getting very upset.
I can count on the fingers of one hand* the number of people on this board whom buy into this crap. You’ve got the remaining 25162 members watching your back.
On the other hand, when people are getting hideous enough to provoke St. Polycarp into pitting them, which IMHO should be grounds for enbannment right off the top, I know that some people need to blow off some steam. But, at risk of becoming Beetlebrox the 2nd, I would like to point out that these idiots are not the problem. The problem is a pervasive belief that homosexuality is icky. Please, remember that these people are not representative of carbon-based life on Earth.

*His4ever, JerseyDiamond, Uncle Toby, and Beetlebrox tangentally. Nothing personal, but you all suck, except for Beeltebrox, who is wrong in this issue.

Peace be with you also, dreamer.

Better now than never, right?

I guess the most important thing that you need to know about my shoes is that they fit me just fine.

Andy, thank you for you story. It made me cry.

ANDY –

That was a great post, and you’re a great chick. I’m proud to think I share a faith with you – you’re a clear asset to the Methodist team. :slight_smile:

JERSEY –

I am so sad for you. Truly! You will get nowhere fast with the attitude you have. I am saddened for your state of being. I hope you seek help.

I hope you’re intellectually honest enough see how patronizingly awful a person you make yourself appear to be, but I’m not betting the ranch on it.

Andygirl, you’re really very beautiful.

Where do you think those beliefs come from? Who do you think is responsible for promoting them?

These people are the problem, and in the Pit, I really enjoy seeing Kirkland lay into them. Kirkland’s anger was well-targeted, and appropriate.

I realize most people are good; it’s all over the OP, for instance. In fact, I think the straight supremacists’ numbers are infinitesimal, and dwindling. It’s just that they squawk loud and hard about homosexuality, and make themselves heard through sheer orneriness, and so people think they’re actually relevant.

But the people who cling to this archaic and hateful perspective deserve all the derision that we can fling at them. Their spiteful, petty perspective, supported by disgustingly flimsy and ignorant arguments, should be given no more respect than that of KKK members or neo-nazis.

You be called an abomination by a bunch of worthless fundamentalists, you see their vulgar churches drive your best friend to abandon you for the “sin” of being honest, and let’s see if you’re not upset. These people are liars. Their words are violence. Their actions are hate. They are evil, and their presence in the world is a direct endangerment of every decent gay person on the planet. Yeah, I’d say I’m a little upset.

You cannot separate the message from the messenger. Anti-gay attitudes would die off post-haste if “people” like these did not spend their putrid, worthless lives spreading them. Every anti-gay act in this nation falls on the shoulders of people like the five you mentioned, they are responsible for every drop of blood, every ounce of pain, every life ruined by thier lies and bigotry. For every friendship their lies have ruined, for every family their efforts have torn asunder.

They spread the lies that cause the violence, therefore they are responsible for all the consequences of their “beliefs.” They are responsible for the gay teen suicide rate (which is staggering), they are responsible for Matthew Shepherd, they are responsible for all anti-gay crime, all anti-gay laws, all anti-gay actions. It’s all on their shoulders, and they should never be allowed a moments rest, never allowed a moments peace, so long as they wave their bigotted banner.

Kirk

Then why on earth did you come in with that snipe about considering the morality of gayness? I think that by now you’ve seen what kind of emotions that sort of remark stirs, and what old festering wounds it opens up. I think you should really apologize, and especially to iampunha, and I’m saying that in the kindest way possible Brutus.

Kudos to Kirkland and andygirl for being candid and persuasive(kirk)/heartfelt(Andy), but maybe even more so to dreamer for being understanding and open about reevaluating your position. If I was a believer I would hope that your attitude is the one that God blesses, you’ve come a long way.

Sparc

Jodi, you are a very misled lady. I hope you find your way.
E-mail me if you need anything! (I mean it)
Sorry, but I am through with this thread. It’s getting kind of silly.

Jersey, you are a coward. Not a surprise, yours is the religion of cowards.

A) iampunha, in light of andygirl’s post, I apologize. I was trying to get across that I do not see homosexuality as a morality issue.

B) Kirkland can just about fuck off. I am sick to shit of his ‘Oh woe is me!’ crap. He is a fucking loon, and doesn’t exactly forward the cause of gay rights.

What I need is for you to have the integrity and intellectual honesty to see how patronizingly awful a person you make yourself appear to be. As I just said. Rather than consider the justice of that point, you only post again to make yourself sound even more patronizingly awful than you did originally. If that’s possible.

Under those circumstances, why on earth would I ever e-mail you?