Shodan, nope. In the post in question, I was addressing my remarks to two long-time posters and one outspoken fairly new poster who have numerous times each addressed the “gay is sinful” issue without at any time dealing with the question of their “unindicted coconspirators” who are actively campaigning against “gay rights” issues. I neither intended nor would ever assume that everyone had to agree with me or make such a pro forma statement as you assumed. I do see how you read it as a universal, and regret having led you to make the erroneous inference – but if you refer back to the post, I’d specifically addressed three people, and the remarks you quote were specifically made to them, and in response to statements by them in this thread. My apologies for misleading you by accident.
Hey, guys, I’m going to answer this one and then let you have the thread to say whatever you want about me or whatever. I’m simply tired of rehashing this subject. I probably shouldn’t have replied to the original OP but as it was directed toward “homophobes” I decided to reply. Probably should have just let it go. If the church I go to ever decided to change their views and accept homosexuality as not being wrong, etc. and marrying gays, etc. as you said, I’m afraid my conscience would lead me to find another church, sorry. I posted in another place I believe that the church I used to go to left their denomination and became independent over this same issue and yes I voted for the separation. The reason I used the term “I believe His word teaches it to be wrong” instead of “His word teaches it to be wrong” was simply to try and concede to you a little and try to avoid another big firestorm (your interpretation, my interpretation), more questions, arguments, etc. etc. I do believe His word teaches it’s wrong, obviously you don’t and that’s that. I know there are probably a few people here besides me who think it’s wrong also, but they probably just keep their mouths shut most of the time. Anyway, I still believe it’s wrong, I’ll always beleive it’s wrong and no matter what you may think, that doesn’t mean I hate homosexuals. I’m not going to get started on that again nor trying to answer the many questions that keep being thrown at me. I will try not to reply to future threads anyone may start on homosexuality unless they are directed toward me or I feel a strong compelling urge to say something, can’t promise I’ll never say anything again. But for now, the subject has been run into the ground and my mind hasn’t changed, neither has yours. As I said above, I’m just weary of rehashing it over and over. It probably would have been better had I not replied to the OP.
H4E:
I had to use a plunger on my computer monitor to expunge your hateful, self-righteous, vitriolic bullshit.
Would you like it back? I’m sure you’ll want to use it again.
Will that be UPS or Fedex?
“I would leave the church I go to if they ever decided homosexuals weren’t dreadful sinners, but I don’t hate homosexuals. Really. Honest. I just would rather change churches than share my God with openly gay people. But I don’t hate them.”
:rolleyes:
Well, H4e, thanks for making that concession. Unfortunately it doesn’t appear that you’re going to have much happiness or luck here, as those who are unwilling to change their views when presented with a more convincing
That kind of closed-mindedness, perhaps even more than the opinion it concerns, is the kind of thing people do not react to well here. At all. And it’s (IMO) against the spirit of the board. So if you’re looking to get people who are willing to debate anything with you here (and maybe you aren’t, I dunno … why did you come here?), my suggestion would be that, for purposes of debate, you open your mind to alternate opinions.
Haven you been open to the possibility that you might be wrong, or have you been more of the mindset of “They’re not going to believe me, but this is what I believe and that’s that”?
[sub]You know, you keep on saying you’re going to leave/not respond to these threads and you keep on responding…[/sub]
In all fairness, it is not as if though the gay/‘pro-gay’ people here are doing any serious soul-searching about whether or not homosexuality is immoral. Like abortion, this is just one of those issues that is pretty much not open for debate (of course, that doesn’t mean it isn’t fun trying!)
And gee, shouldn’t you ‘open your mind to alternate opinions’? Or must said opinions pass some sort of iampunha litmus test before they are valid? Don’t be so self-righteous.
H4E –
This is starting to sound a little disingenous to me. You post this stuff – without being asked, without being prompted, without anyone directing a single word at you – and then when people take issue with you, you say “I’ll just go away and let you bash me. I’m tired of talking about this. I probably shouldn’t have said anything.” I’ve seen you do this two or three times now.
As I already told you in another thread: You may feel you have the sword of righteousness in your hand, but that doesn’t entitle you to whack people with it and then run away. That’s what you do, and it is an act of cowardice.
If you don’t want to discuss or back up your opinions, then shut up about them. It’s not like anyone asked you, anyhow.
But Brutus, sweetheart! Why should anyone ask himself or herself that? Do you ask yourself the question if being heterosexual is immoral? Gayness isn’t a choice it’s a fact. I don’t ask myself if it’s immoral to be very tall, which I am, and why should I? It doesn’t hurt anyone other than myself at times, and even if it does I can’t do much about it, but I’ll tell you that however absurd it sounds people do sometimes take issue with my tallness.
Sparc
Actually, I think a certain amount of soul-searching went into my stance on the gay world. When I first learned about homosexuality, I thought about how I would react if society told me that I was immoral for being attracted to women. If people told me that my attraction to women was disgusting and wrong, and that I should find a nice boy to fall in love with, I would be outraged, I wouldn’t stand for it, and I would rebel. It stands to reason that I would do the same if I were attracted to other men, in a society that told me that was wrong.
I’m not sure that’s deep soul-searching, but I have at least thought about it. My support of the gay community isn’t just a knee-jerk liberal response. I don’t see evidence of even that much thought from the H4E camp.
See, the thing I learned about this is that not only does everyone here already know what the bible says about homosexuality, and interpret it in their own way, but the believers here realize all sins are equal (except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) and whether they think being gay is wrong or not, they choose not to constantly condemn people for it.
Remember these scriptures?
Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.”
It’s all about caring about the other person His4ever. It’s about love, compassion, and acceptance of all humankind. It’s about using the heart that God gave you to spread his love to others, not to judge them and constantly tell them you don’t agree with their actions. So you said it. Fine, you made your point. All you have to do now is see that they are regular people just as you and they deserve the love and respect that everyone else in this world does. Whether you think what they are doing is wrong or not.
Let me ask you this. If a gay man was lying in the road and dying from dehydration, would you give him some water or let the vultures get him?
I know, a stupid example, but do you see how all men and women are to be treated equally no matter what you think of their actions?
I know you probably won’t respond to my post and I hope you don’t think I’m being mean to you for saying these things. I’m just trying to get you to see my point.
Gee, I don’t see any relevant facts coming from the 'phobes. I see plenty of ranting about “what God says”, when believers don’t even agree on it. I have seen no rational defense of discrimination, I strongly suspect that this is because no rational defense is possible but I have yet to hear anything but ignorance and hate.
I don’t do much of that on this board, but I used to, and part of that soul searching was as a result of this board. I just don’t believe that something that is as much of a person’s existence as their eye color can be immoral.
I do, however, talk about a good deal of things I see on this board with friends, both online and in person. Some of them even dopers.
Yes sir:rolleyes: I have seen the “arguments” put forth by H4e before … as early as my freshman year of high school (my family wasn’t one of them homosexual-bashing clans). And in my opinion, at best they are misrepresentative of the Bible and at worst are a tool with which people judge any homosexual they meet based on a pre-conceived, incorrect and incredibly insensitive and arrogant archetype of “Joe Gayman”. As this is the argument H4e presented, and as I did not see anything I had not seen and thought through before, I didn’t consider it any more than I consider the same moon landing hoax conspiracy idea banded around every few months on this board (or at least, that used to be the case). Were a new argument to be raised, it would be foolish of me not to consider it, though I doubt I would change my mind. But I wouldn’t just dismiss it out of hand saying “I already know what I believe”.
[sub]Anyone want to give me odds on the chance of H4e coming back into this thread and saying “Okay, folks, after this I’m really leaving…”? Place your bets in circus peanuts;)[/sub]
This has such sig potential…
Remember, JerseyDiamond, whatsoever you do to the least of His people, that you do unto Him.
Skin color can be changed-just ask Michael Jackson.
And sexual orientation cannot change. SOME people claim it can-but they are either fooling themselves or are to some degree bisexual and simply deny their feelings on this.
And besides, let’s say there’s this guy, um, Guy, who is a homosexual. He believes YOU when you say it’s wrong, and chooses to remain celibate. However, he will STILL be attracted to men. THAT will not change.
Not all gay men have anal intercourse. Many straights have anal intercourse. Besides, what about enemas? Thermometers?
Ah, Cole Porter and Tchaikovsky. Cool. But don’t forget Franz Schubert. He was gay AND he was Catholic! OH NO!!!
Brutus, even when I was a lot younger (say, 11), and I first heard about “gays”, and I thought it was “wrong”, I STILL didn’t think they should be beaten up, or forbidden from being gay. I thought that it was between that person and his conscience. I don’t have to answer to God for what another person does.
IF, and this is a pretty big if, being gay IS a sin-so WHAT? Why not just leave it up to God to deal with it? Why is it YOUR responsibility? Don’t you have to worry about that plank in YOUR eye first?
And one more thing…
GAY Bowel Syndrome???
Da’hell? What, does your sphincter start breaking out in showtunes or something?
Brutus, I hate to ruin your illusions, but I did put a lot of thought into my beliefs about homosexuality and other issues and continue to do so. I’ve given my reasons for not condemning it often enough recently that I’m not going to do so again. I also hold beliefs on adultery and, to a lesser degree, divorce which appear not to match up with what mainstream America believes which is why I seldom bring them up. Now, I’m willing to concede that His4Ever may have had the issue of homosexuality thrust upon her (I know, insert double-entendre here), but she’s also welcome to stay out of threads which present issues she knows she’ll have problems with. Lord knows I do.
CJ
How dare you. Have you been through the pain and sheer agony of coming out? Of admitting to yourself, and then others, that you are what you are, accepting that you can’t change it, that your entire life, as society has envisioned it – marriage, children, a job – has been thrown in the crapper and you can’t do anything about it, all about something that is ***not your choice? ***
Fuck you. Fuck you. Coming out requires more soul searching than an ignorant troll like you could ever muster. It involves being more honest about yourself than a hunk of shit like you will ever have to be. Society gives crap like you a free pass. They spit on me. Filth like Whore4Ever come and spit on me, and everyone like me, and I’m supposed to do the fucking soul searching? Fuck you, asshole.
Try coming out sometime, if you want to see what real soul searching is, what real consideration of the bullshit “morality” and “immorality” you’ve been spoonfed since childhood is like.
It’s a horrible experience. A painful experience. A scarring, hurtful, terrible experience. Because of people like you, people like H4E, people like my “best friend” Todd. Because you have no control. You can’t control how your “friends” will react, you can’t control that worthless religious whores like H4E will forever be condemning and hating you for being honest. You can’t control who will be a decent person and stand by you, and who will turn out to be utter human waste and turn on you for being honest.
You come to the realization, someday, that you ARE, without ANY CHOICE IN THE MATTER, something/someone that society hates, that society spits on, that a culture you grew up in would rather destroy than understand. You go through that, and then you fucking tell me it doesn’t involve soul seaching, you arrogant son of a bitch.
I should “open my mind” to the “opinion” that I’m a sub-human abomination who deserves no rights, no protection from government, no peace from the efforts of religious scum to brainwash me and destroy me?
There can be no room for “opinion.” No one can have the “opinion” that I chose to be gay, because I WAS FUCKING THERE, ASSHOLE, AND I KNOW I DIDN’T.
So I’m an abomination, I’m scum, because of something I DIDN’T CHOOSE? What kind of fucking morality is that? What kind of filth would peddle this shit?
Open my mind to that? Why don’t I open my mind to the idea that the sky is orange while I’m at it… I mean since your asking me to place opinion over facts I KNOW BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF A DOUBT ARE TRUE, what would really be the difference?
You don’t fucking get it, do you? The facts of my life experiences are NOT UP FOR OPINION. You CANNOT VALIDLY HOLD THE OPINION THAT I CHOSE TO BE GAY, because I KNOW I DIDN’T.
Open my fucking mind? Why don’t you open your mind? I’d suggest using a bullet.
Kirk
ROFL:D
I just don’t get some of the vitriol being spent on his4ever.
Fact: She doesn’t like gay people and/or homosexuality in general
Fact: She is not espousing violence against gay people.
Sooo…what? I don’t get it. Granted, she probably should take it down a notch, since it is ‘Great Debates’, and slinging bible quotes isn’t exactly cite-worthy, IMO.
But still, why not just ignore her? Arguing with her is simply unwinnable, since she seems put select biblical verse ahead of what is inbetween her ears.
A lot of people are just beating their heads against the wall that is His4ever. Just don’t read her posts (And she does seem to be one of the few, if not only, completely anti-gay people here, no?).
Kirkland1244, I am so sad for you. Truly! I hope you find peace in your life. If someone has beaten you up, turned their back on you, or ridiculed you, I am sorry. Just remember that we are not the one’s who did it. You will get nowhere fast with the attitude you have. No one has told you here that they hate you. No one has called you any names. I am saddened for your state of being. I hope you seek help.
JD
What are you smoking, and where can I get some? Abomination is not a hateful name? Admitting she would discriminate agains homosexuals is not hateful?
Yeah, weird how that happened.
So, H4E, you believe you know better than your own church. Is there anyone walking this earth who is holier than thou?
Yeah, they live with the imaginary fairies at the bottom of your garden, and only come out after the aliens visit. This has got to be my favorite of your arguments, H4E; it’s not even an argument from popularity, it’s an argument from imaginary popularity. Tons of people agree with you, we just can’t see them.
I’m torn. One part of me wants to beg H4E not to stop debating us; she’s such a wonderful example of the stubborn ignorance necessary to support the straight supremacist viewpoint that it’s going to be hard to replace her. I’m sure that in her time here she’s been more successful in getting people to rethink their intolerance of homosexuals than I have been. I couldn’t wish for a better bad example.
On the other hand, I would very much like it if every straight supremacist out there followed her example. Shut up about gay people; you have no idea what you’re talking about. If you can;t open your hearts enough to show us compassion, just keep your faces out of our affairs, stop trying to make laws against us, resign yourself to the fact that we’re going to be accepted by society and there’s nothing you can do about it. If you have a distaste for us, fine, it’s your problem. Get counselling if it bothers you that much. Accept your obsolescence gracefully, realize that your perspective on this issue no longer has any place in this world aside from as a lunatic fringe rant subject, and just shut up about it.