I’ll be tolerant and understanding, but only if they are first. 
A little Fwuffy Wuv, in moderation. A little Fucking Hate, in moderation.
When it’s all Fwuffy Wuv you can’t say anything of great interest or meaning, and you can’t read anything past the (((((so and so))))) and the “so and so ROCKS!!!” posts. When it’s all Fucking Hate, you can’t say anything of great interest of meaning either because everyone’s too busy trying to destroy each other.
We need to be able to say “What the FUCK are you on about? I can’t believe you’ve missed the fucking OBVIOUS POINT here. Posts like yours are an insult to blind retards everywhere” in the Pit.
However, it’s common sense to pay some attention to the potential consequences of our posts before we make them. Otherwise conflicts just escalate and escalate and escalate. So, maybe not blanket “love and understanding” for everyone everywhere - but understanding of potential outcomes of our posts.
Of course you can’t know for certain how someone’s going to react to a post, but there are times when it isn’t rocket science to figure out that if you make an accusation in a certain way, you’re going to get a defensive-to-the-point-of-actually-being-attacking reply, a request for cites from the poster’s entire posting history and a general all-out flamefest.
Doper-wrangling. Damage limitation. Whatever.
My decision to make this thread a sticky was because I’ve noticed that the Pit has become nastier of late. The Pit has NEVER been “no holds barred”, we’ve ALWAYS had some sort of rules here. I think that people need to think twice before posting in this forum. The Straight Dope management and staff think that we’ve got one of the best, if not THE best, general interest message boards around. We’d like to keep it that way. There are a zillion message boards that you can find flames in. The Straight Dope is NOT going to be the worst of them.
Which is why, several times every week, I hit that back button before posting the foulmouthed rants that have been written. It’s also why I’ve regretted some posts where I did hit submit.
I can be the nastiest bastard in the world when I want to be, but try to respect this board as much as I can.
Gotta love that back button.
It’s my bestest friend.
Seriously, I get to type that poster X is a big fat poopie head and wish them serious bodily harm. Then, feeling better, I hit the back button and get on with my day without starting a flame war.
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni
I’ve had a couple of requests to make this thread sticky, so I will.
Lynn
Since when does a few requests from Dopers make any difference in what the Mods/Admins do?
Not that you guys are completely heartless or ignore us as policy but it’s been made pretty clear in the past and also rather recently, in fact, that when it comes to decisions of the Powers That Be, our input really isn’t a deciding factor.
If, in fact, the reason you made it a sticky is because of what you posted in your subsequent post (rather than at the request of a few), I think that should be included as a note before this thread.
I think that it would be smart to include a little prefix letting people know that the Powers That Be expect people to take Scotti’s suggestions to heart and follow them. I’m not suggesting there should be a change in the rules for the Pit but if this is important enough for the Mods/Admins to agree with and make it a sticky at the head of the forum, then I, personally, would like a little official clarification so far as how strictly we are to adhere to this “nicer and happier” Pit idea.
I mean, “Don’t Be A Jerk” has always been both completely self-explanatory and somewhat vague. And recently, it appears that “jerk” has become practically undefinable. Since the Mods are human, it is forgiveable when they determine one action to be jerky when one poster posts it and acceptable when it comes from someone else. However, with the new veil of “love your neighbor even when you want to kill him” draping the Pit now, these judgement calls could very easily become more and more questioned and objected to without some official clarification.
Please don’t come back and say, “All we’ve ever asked is that you don’t be a jerk.” Obviously, that isn’t working for everyone now–Mods included.
I lurk. I lurk here an awful lot. I know people here (as much as you can know people on a message board and via the not-officially-associated IRC channel). I know their personalities as they choose to reveal them here. I don’t post a lot. I find that I’ll type up a reply to a thread and then more often than not, delete it because I feel it doesn’t add to the discussion significantly enough to be worth the reading time on everyone else’s part. But I have to say, as someone who’e lurked and read and gotten to know (qualified as above) the people here for over two years now, I’m pretty fucking sick of the way people here have been treating each other the last week.
Fine, this is the Pit. I know how the Pit works. I read the Pit more often than any other forum because it’s got interesting stuff to read in it. But goddamn, you people have been NASTY in extrodinarly personal ways lately. We’re not talking “you, sir, have posted something stupid in another forum and I’d like to take this chance to show you how much of a idiotic thing you’ve posted” nor has it been “you’ve insulted me here and I’ll reclaim my ‘honor’ in this Pit thread, thank you”. You (collectively) have mocked and hurt people because of who they are and how they choose to live their lives, or post on a message board when it doesn’t hurt you(collectively) at all. You’ve been sharply and deliberately hurtful. There isn’t any excuse for that. None. I don’t care if it’s the Pit. I don’t care if you don’t like the poster or posters in question. I came to the SMDB and have lurked for so long because I found a level of discourse here that was higher than any other I’ve found online or off. Period. And in the last week, specifically these three threads that have been referenced here have made me seriously rethink whether or not the SDMB is a “society” that’s still a cut above the rest.
For those of you who think that the Pit ought to be about getting your kicks from seeing other people “cat fight” or roll in the mud, or taking painful, personal and biting digs at each other, I suggest to you all that there’s an entire internet, and I’d dare to say, and increasing swath of real life out there that’s capable of suiting your craving. But here, on the SDMB, and yes, even in the Pit, I expect more.
I’ve cited something to this effect before - just because you’re allowed to be an asshole in the Pit, it doesn’t mean you’re required to be one.
Very, very few (if any) people are saying that everyone must be all sweetness and light to each other here. What they’re saying is that using at least a measure of basic respect is a decent thing to do, unless the person being attacked has proven to not even be worthy of that.
Um… there’s a loaded question. How does one “prove oneself unworthy of basic courtesy and a modicum of respect for his basic humanity?”
I appreciate Scottischer’s point about “let’s not lose our freakin’ minds over stuff that doesn’t really matter anyway.” Certainly, there’s no fun and no point in watching two people rip each other to shreds over some stupid, inconsequential… oh, wait. Yes there is. Loads of fun. It’s what’s kept Jerry Springer on the air for years.
Then again, I can’t say I’ve got a whole lot of respect for people who view Jerry Springer as good fun and neato entertainment. Got no stomach for watching human beings viciously humiliate each other on national TV. Not simply for entertainment value, anyway.
Is civilized discourse dead? No. I’m not long here, but I see loads of it all over the boards, here. I am particularly impressed by several threads which seem to demonstrate the intelligence, levelheadedness, and kind humanity of what seems the majority of Dopers. Witch’s thread, here, is a fine example.
…but it’s a two way street. There are always going to be them what don’t recognize my basic humanity. They don’t see ME, after all. They see a string of text, and some ideas they don’t much like, and they act accordingly.
It seems a little futile to expect an asshead to change his nature.
On the other hand, you may be right. How can one expect an asshead to be anything but an asshead, unless you appeal to him to be more than that…?
Completely Off topic but now I shall be forced to hate you kambuckta for reminding me of the worst concert I ever saw, Skyhooks opening for Traffic.
Skyhook was dreadful. When they finished, the audience was absolutely silent as they left the stage. When the house lights went up everyone cheered cause we though they were finally done. Unfortunately the band mistook the cheering as a call for encore and they came back on and played another 1/2 hour.
CURSE YOU!
[sub] Ok I’m over it now. I don’t think it’s your fault they were so bad…that is unless you were in the band[/sub]
In case nobody has noticed, there is a lot of injustice, hatefulness, purblind and intentional ignorance, and similar negative stuff out there in the Real World. And vengeful, vitriolic posts about what you detest and cannot act to correct, here in the Pit, are one way to keep from developing an ulcer about them, and to bring them to the attention of people who may have ability to do something about them. (I’ll hazard the guess that there are at least a few elected officials among our lurkers and possibly among our posters, who read people’s stances on issues with great interest and are sometimes guided by them in making public policy.)
On the other hand, a touch of superciliousness evinced by a usually level-headed poster who has made it a part of her mission here, or a difference of opinion on whether a given set of rights is being unjustly denied to some people, is not grounds for breaking out the Ginsu knives and slashing the culprit with the Death of a Thousand Cuts. There is a happy medium that makes clear one’s irritation at attitudes taken but leaves room for correction – and the possibility that what pissed you off was a misunderstanding of the poster’s stance due to poor wording.
All this, of course, is IMHO. YMMV. And ATOA*.
- All Those Other Acronyms.
Whew, I thought I was the only one who did this.
FWIW, I strongly suspect part of the problem is that people differ widely in how they approach Net communications. For some it’s much like RL dealings, i.e. same general rules of conduct apply. It’s relationship oriented. For others, it’s its own beast with tacit rules more approaching a game: fun, and a lot freer and wide open than RL. It’s a less stuffy alternative to everyday life. (I’m using “RL” as a handy distinction here b/w online and in person, not as a judgement on realness, btw.)
As for stickying (now there’s a clunky verb) the thread, I suspect it wasn’t so much the requests as recognizing this as a topic of especially active interest among the TM right now.
My (unofficial) viewpoint? A common sense middle ground works, actually. It’s quite possible, and preferred, to argue hammer and tongs, and enjoy the fracas, without ripping into someone’s viscera. Creative flaming as a weird art form can turn the corner into viciousness.
Additonal point: The Pit and flaming aren’t for everyone. I can laugh at OTT rants over impersonal annoyances or outrages, and enjoy the verbal pyrotechnics. The personal stuff leaves me cold, however, so I only read 'em for “mod coverage” responsibility. I suggest there’s a DNFTT corollary for Pit threads: DNFTF, “Do Not Feed The FLames”. If you suspect a thread will offend you then don’t read it, or at least don’t lend it your countenance by adding to it.
And another: I sometimes croggle at how people discount how clearly people reveal their personalities and lives online. It’s like they think their words somehow go away when they logoff at night, or haven’t been read and absorbed. (Not only by active posters, who are the minority, but the vast legions of silent, invisible 'Net readers.) The rashest reactions and personal details are flung blithely in front of folks across the planet. Maybe it’s just me, but I often gulp and think, “You wanted to reveal that about yourself?” It’s a great reality check for minding what, how, and how much one says.
Annoying centrist as usual,
Veb
I think that’s actually a clunky ‘gerund’, Veb.
I agree that I find the Pit dismaying at times. I’ve never believed that just because there’s a forum set aside for interpersonal disagreements one should take that to mean that the gloves are always off.
And I especially dislike the type of post in which people say, “I’ve been too polite…and this is the Pit so…FUCK!”
It’s just juvenile to believe that you should swear or be discourteous because you believe you should. Juvenile, I tell you.
Besides, if you truly disagree with someone that strongly you should try to at least be creative. The best insults are the ones with perfect courtesy attached. That shows that the poster is an adult and has a command of language skills that are worthy of respect.
Just screaming is well…annoying. And unworthy of respect.
Walked right into that one, Jon.
Harumph. Of course that’s what I meant to say all along. It was a test, just a hideously subtle test, buried in timeless insights. That’s the ticket. Good spotting.
Ulp,
Veb
Can we all just grab hands and sing “We are the world, we are the childeren”?
Anyways, why was this forum even created?
I think the appropiate position, when pitted, would be “en garde” - give as good as you get, and if the opposing side chooses to escalate, well…
If some wish to rip a new one, we should respect that - as long as the sides are evenly (more or less ) balanced.
However, third parties should NOT be allowed to escalate - you want to get nastier, start your own fight. The “I’m on X’s side” posts (uncreative syncophantic offspring of syphilitic leeches that they are) should be tolerated.
IMHO. YOMV. IANAMod. IANAAdmin.
That would be nice, but it wouldn’t be HONEST.
The pit exists because in a community of this size, there are bound to be disagreements and this forum is necessary so that people can address these issues without dragging them into the other forum.
I don’t think the pit should be abolished, and I defy anyone to say I have EVER said that. I don’t think that people should be restricted in what they say here, either.
I started this thread in an effort to get people to think about whether or not spewing vitriol (as evidenced in recent pit threads) is worth the hurt and loss of respect that it can cause.
All I was asking is that people consider this. I am not a mod, nor am I a den mother, and I do not think I am some arbitrator of any kind of ANYTHING. Nor do I think I have any influence of any kind here…for ANYONE. I am merely a member who felt that lately things have degenerated far beyond civility toward other members in situations where it wasn’t warranted.
It is my opinion, and I am not going to retract it. If I offended any of you, I am sorry. But I stand by what I said.
You certainly didn’t offend me Scotticher. I’ll put my hand up as agreeing with you and most of the other posters in this thread. Some of the recent pit stuff was needlessly ugly.
Cheers!