A poll for the single guys (and girls) out there in SDMB Land

[4.66]

@Kalhoun

She said:
“I don’t really ever take lunch.” “I’m really very busy.” “I eat on the go, sorry.”

Yes. I specifically used a different example of a hint, because I did not want to make this personal. There’s nothing wrong with being frustated that (poorly) blowing somebody off 20 times still hasn’t had any effect, and nobody’s perfect anyway. So my issue is not so much with YWTF’s behaviour in this particular case, but with the defense of such behaviour in general.

Well, I guess I’m going to comment on the particulars of this example anyway.

1. She hasn’t led him on.
2. She hasn’t responded in a warm, inviting way.
3. She’s repeated, many times, that she has no time for him in her life.

I argued that hints are interpretable and that it was therefore necessary to use at least another hint. I’m really very busy can simply be a true statement and the implication of rejection is not in this particular phrase, but in the pattern of using these phrases time and again. Until the pattern was established, she was leading the guy on. Or do you think that I eat on the go, sorry has exactly one interpretation (No)? In that case, why use this dishonest phrase in favor of the polite no thanks? In this case both phrases are equally confrontational.

As for remark 2), she did write And yet I still make an effort to exchange a quick pleasantry with you. When I see you, I smile and am cordial. She qualified that with But nothing more than that, but the words speak for themselves, she’s describing behaviour that can easily be interpreted in multiple ways.
Regarding your 3), she has done nothing of the sort. Again, there was an implication of this in the pattern, but if she had indeed made this statement I would not have had any issue with the way she handled the situation (unless that statement came after 20 hints).

I do agree that the guy she’s dealing with is a stranger and that she doesn’t owe him very much. But he did come to her to invite her to lunch, which is kind gesture (well the first time it is anyway, if he didn’t do so in an offending manner), and I do think one owes kind strangers at least a graceful let-off. Not much more though.

@YWTF

No, I want to reject the guy in a way that will be as painless as possible for both of us. That’s not passive-agressive.

For all this talk about honesty, I have an idea most people wouldn’t be able to handle hearing it in practice. It looks good on paper, but trust me, after hearing “your face looks like a truck hit it”, “your breath stinks like dog shit”, “your dick is too small”, “you’re too dumb”, “you’re technically old enough to be my grandfather and I don’t do senior citizens” I’m sure the beauty of this so-called passive agressive subtlety would be appreciated.

I still don’t see you owning the rejection. To us perhaps, but not to him. So I still see this as passive-agressive. I also don’t understand why you feel that honesty would mean reading him a list of his short-comings. Again, a simple No, thanks would do. You owe him a polite and truthful answer, but not an explanation or a justification.

FWIW, were making this thing much bigger than it is. I think you handled the situation a bit poorly, and in analyzing why, I had to use some big words, such as passive-agressive. That doesn’t mean the big words apply to you for 100%. I just think that hinting is a poor way of communicating and I feel it’s infuriating that often in such situations the hintee, rather than the hinter, gets faulted for having poor communication skills.

[Kalhoun]

@4.66

FWIW, were making this thing much bigger than it is. I think you handled the situation a bit poorly, and in analyzing why, I had to use some big words, such as passive-agressive. That doesn’t mean the big words apply to you for 100%. I just think that hinting is a poor way of communicating and I feel it’s infuriating that often in such situations the hintee, rather than the hinter, gets faulted for having poor communication skills.

As a woman who’s been in this particular boat numerous times, it really can feel that big. I think in business, directness is your best bet. In matters of the heart, we have set up social guidelines that are understood by 90% of the population. These guidelines allow you to express your feelings while leaving the hopeful suitor with his 'nads intact and his ego at a level that will allow him to go to bat with another prospect.

I’ll make an allowance for the direct approach in certain situations. For instance, I have been approached in public places by complete strangers and have resorted to a flat-out “No. Please don’t bother me anymore.” I’d imagine YWTF would have no problem in that scenario, either.

However, her pseudo-suitor is, by geographical location, sharing space with her regularly. They both have to be there often because they make their living there. She is respecting his feelings as well as her own because *they both * have a right to continue to earn a living there. How do you think either of them would feel if she got down with the “get lost, asshole” tone and then they had to run into each other every few days for the next ten years? It benefits neither of them to create that kind of tension knowing you have to relive it week in and week out.

[4.66]

@Monstro

Spoken like someone who’s never been harrassed.

Well, that’s a convenient way to dismiss each and every input by guys if you don’t agree with them! But did you notice that in the example that sparked this thread, YWTF’s story, the girl did more or less the opposite of what I suggest and that she ended up being harassed anyway? Your comment has no bearing whatsoever on my post.

I happen to agree with most of the rest of your post. If you had posted about ten minutes later you probably would have read my previous comment, where I state, like you, that in rejecting the guy the girl owes him no explanation nor a justification. A polite, friendly No thanks should do the job. I’ll add that after it turns out that it doesn’t do the job (or perhaps after applying a three strikes out rule, if you’re feeling friendly) all bets are off. Lie to him, lead him on, scream, whatever you feel is necesarry, if he’s proven that he won’t respect you it’s all justified. But start out be honest and polite. It doesn’t stand in the way of more disrespecful behaviour, if it turns out that that is what the situation requires.

@Kalhoun

it really can feel that big.

I was refering to my criticism of the way YWTF handled the situation. Some of you were responding a bit emotionally to my comments and I wanted to make sure she knows I didn’t mean things as harsh as they apparently have come across. Of course YWTF’s situation is a big deal.

I’ll make an allowance for the hint approach in certain situations. Specifically, if the hints are solely in the interest of the hintee (say when hinting to somebody she needs to close up her fly) I see no problem. But when there’s a significant self-interest on the part of the hinter I tend to see justifications using the hintee’s interest as rationalizations, rather than as convincing arguments. For example in this situation, where the hints are supposedly in the interest of the guy aproaching a girl and where I have argued that they do not turn out to be so.

@Kalhoun

“No. Please don’t bother me anymore.” […]
if she got down with the “get lost, asshole” tone

I’m not suggesting this at all. In fact, with the buildup of frustration she’s currently experiencing it’s likely she will end up using these sort of phrases and tone anyways. If she had started out with a more friendly but honest approach she might have ended up with better results* or would at least have a better justification for an escalation.

• Okay, probably not with the asshole under consideration

[Kalhoun]

@4.66

I’ll make an allowance for the hint approach in certain situations. Specifically, if the hints are solely in the interest of the hintee (say when hinting to somebody she needs to close up her fly) I see no problem. But when there’s a significant self-interest on the part of the hinter I tend to see justifications using the hintee’s interest as rationalizations, rather than as convincing arguments. For example in this situation, where the hints are supposedly in the interest of the guy aproaching a girl and where I have argued that they do not turn out to be so.

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think it’s in both parties’ best interest to do the widely-understood “I’m busy” hint. As I stated previously, neither of them need the uncomfortable tension in the workplace; even if it is just in the corridor. They have to see each other every day. They have professional reputations to protect. She’s already stated she’s not afraid of him; just annoyed. she has more to lose if the smack-down doesn’t go smoothly (and there’s no guarantee it will).

[4.66]

@Kalhoun

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I guess that’s the case. But I would appreciate it if you stopped insisting that I implied that she should use a smack-down on the guy. In fact I suggested a gentle No thanks.

[Amblydoper]

Kalhoun, you seem to think the only options for rejection at this point are a hint or a smack down. I have lost count of how many times 4.66 has said that a simple “No Thanks” is a better option. It is polite and business-like and would be appropriate in either a social or business setting.

[you_with_the_face]

@4.66

I still don’t see you owning the rejection. To us perhaps, but not to him. So I still see this as passive-agressive. I also don’t understand why you feel that honesty would mean reading him a list of his short-comings.

What does “owning the rejection” mean? Not to be disrespectful, but that sounds like some New Age psycho babble.

I also don’t get what honesty has to do with it. I haven’t been dishonest; I simply haven’t been frank and to the point. You say a simple “no thanks” is best thing to say. Well, in my eyes, there’s not a whole lot of difference between saying that and saying “sorry, I don’t take lunch”. The main difference is that the former is more likely to provoke a demand for an explanation, while the latter does not. As I’ve already explained, I don’t feel like explaining the reason behind my refusal. It puts me on the spot and makes me uncomfortable.

Again, a simple No, thanks would do. You owe him a polite and truthful answer, but not an explanation or a justification.

I don’t owe him anything actually. My cordiality is not an entitlement. I choose to be nice to him because that’s the kind of person I am, but I could just as easily ignore him everytime I see him and I’d be well within my rights to do so. I also don’t owe him truthfulness or bluntness. Obviously, bluntness is called for in order to get the prick from bothering me, but there’s no reason why I should have to draw him a diagram.

It’s rude in most kind of casual social settings to chase after someone until they get so frustrated that they say “go away”. It almost seems as if you’re saying that unless someone is that clear, then it’s not the chasers fault for being a pest. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I just think that hinting is a poor way of communicating and I feel it’s infuriating that often in such situations the hintee, rather than the hinter, gets faulted for having poor communication skills.

Actually, I don’t think hinting is really what I’ve been doing. The first time or the second, okay, those were hints. But I’m serious when I said this little song and dance has been going on for a few months. Everytime he asks me, I turn him down with no “buts” or “maybes” attached. You don’t have to read tea leaves to figure out what that means.

[you_with_the_face]

@Kalhoun

Incidently, I don’t know about you, but I’m always afraid that “I’m not interested” might be interpreted as “I find you uninteresting”, and I find that to be one of the most hurtful things a person could hear about themself.

Naw, for me, I always worry about being accused of presumptiousness. “I’m not interested” could easily trigger a “Not interested in what? It’s just lunch. Everyone’s gotta eat. What do you think I have in mind, huh? Huh?”

That kind of coyness just makes me want to choke a bitch.

[4.66]

@YWTF

What does “owning the rejection” mean?

Not owning one’s action seems to me the main problem when someone is being passive-agressive. For example, say coworker A wants to get back at coworker B and ‘forgets’ to flush the office’ toilet, hoping B will be the one walking into the mess. He’s being agressive towards B, but lies about his involvement. He’s not taking responsibility for actions he is responsible for. That’s what I mean when I say that A’s not owning his actions. He’s being passive-agressive.

Now in your case the action, rejecting the guy, isn’t all that agressive (and it’s very different from the flusing-example). But it’s definitively something I feel you should own. Instead you’re hiding your responsibility under excuses and hints and that’s why I used the words passive-agressive.

As for the difference between No thanks and Sorry, I don’t take lunch, the first is a clear indication that you’re not interested, that’s the only reasonable interpretation. The second has some reasonable interpretations that are contrary to the one you intend. You might be interested in, say, brunch or if he sees you having lunch another day he’s in for a chance. That’s not what you intended, but those other interpretations were the reason you chose Sorry, I don’t take lunch above the other option. It was a hint, rather than a direct answer.

I don’t owe him anything actually. My cordiality is not an entitlement. I choose to be nice to him because that’s the kind of person I am.

Well, you do owe him some friendliness. Or you did. That’s what it means to live in civil society. We start out interactions with strangers polite, even as we are trying to keep the interaction as short as possibly. But rather than being nice to him, you chose to play the hinting-game. Even though there was no harm in starting out with a gentle No thanks. If he still had replied with unwanted insistence you could have easily continued with the less sympathetic excuses and hints from there.

It’s rude in most kind of casual social settings to chase after someone until they get so frustrated that they say “go away”. It almost seems as if you’re saying that unless someone is that clear, then it’s not the chasers fault for being a pest. Correct me if I’m wrong

My issue is not your frustration after 20 hints. The pattern is clearly established and at this point it’s the chaser’s fault for being rude and a pest. And it’s probably too late too start the gentle direct approach now. My point is not that you’ve not been all that clear, it’s that you’ve been intentionally unclear and from the start. At the beginning he had every right to see if you might be interested, even if it was pretty unlikely, and you reacted rudely to that.

It’s worth repeating that there are more choices than only being either honestly blunt and rude or indirect and non-confrontational.

[Tuckerfan]

@Anaamika

I’d be honest. I was honest with the man I mentioned. I mean I was polite for a long time, until I findally said. “Look. You’re very nice but I have been in a LTR for over 10 years and am not interested in a change. I don’t want to lead you on in any way.”

The new one (read my post) has been way milder so I haven’t had to resort to this yet.

And again, you break my heart.

[you_with_the_face]

@4.66

As for the difference between No thanks and Sorry, I don’t take lunch, the first is a clear indication that you’re not interested, that’s the only reasonable interpretation. The second has some reasonable interpretations that are contrary to the one you intend.

I disagree. “Sorry, I don’t take lunch” means, quite simply, that I’m turning down the offer. The reason behind it is completely irrelevant, as he is not owed any explanation, truthful or not truthful. He shouldn’t need to be told explicitly that I’m not interested in having lunch with him, in order to reasonably communicate that to him. Maybe I do, maybe I don’t. But regardless of my actual feelings, it’s not going happen because “I don’t take lunch, sorry.” And that’s all he needs to know! Maybe I have a dick for a boss. Maybe I’m trying to watch my weight. Maybe I’m too busy to stop for a bite. Or maybe I just don’t plain want to eat lunch with him. Why is he entitled to know why?

You might be interested in, say, brunch or if he sees you having lunch another day he’s in for a chance. That’s not what you intended, but those other interpretations were the reason you chose Sorry, I don’t take lunch above the other option. It was a hint, rather than a direct answer.

If I were interested in brunch or dinner then I’d suggest those options, right? And if I said “no thanks” he could very well think that “no thanks” just applies to lunch. Someone who is determined enough could find vagueness in “no thanks”, too. I still don’t see how “no thanks” is really all that different that what I’ve said.

My point is not that you’ve not been all that clear, it’s that you’ve been intentionally unclear and from the start.

No, I haven’t. I will take responsibility for not being blunt, but not for being willfully ambiguous. There is a difference.

At the beginning he had every right to see if you might be interested, even if it was pretty unlikely, and you reacted rudely to that.

What?! I did not react rudely to anything, and I find it amazing that after all these pains I’ve taken to be gentle to the old fool (who is harrassing me!) my particular approach is being labeled rude. Sweet Jesus. I’m starting to feel defensive and I don’t like that at all.

[Kalhoun]

@you with the face

What?! I did not react rudely to anything, and I find it amazing that after all these pains I’ve taken to be gentle to the old fool (who is harrassing me!) my particular approach is being labeled rude. Sweet Jesus. I’m starting to feel defensive and I don’t like that at all.

I don’t think you were rude, hinting, or unclear in the slightest. This guy is one of the 10% who just don’t get it. You shouldn’t have to draw him a map, nor do you owe him an explanation. Everything you said to him amounts to a “no thanks” and he’s not taking “no” for an answer.

While he’s got an abrupt response coming, I would feel totally uncomfortable dishing it out to him (after all, there’s a good chance he may not “get” that, either!). People who are so completely lacking in social skills are sad cases, indeed.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@Kalhoun

There is a middle ground. It involves picking up on subtle hints that are intended to show you that while you aren’t my cup o’ tea, I still value you as a human being and don’t wish to cause you distress. If that includes an innocent fib or two (or three), I’ll choose that route over the direct dismissal every time.

Does this middle ground involve “investing in a cheap ring”?

[Lord_Ashtar]

@Kalhoun

Everything you said to him amounts to a “no thanks” and he’s not taking “no” for an answer.

He’s not taking “no” for an answer because she never said “no”.

I know this will probably frustrate YWTF and Kalhoun even more, but I just don’t understand your aversion to a simple “no”. It’s not necessarily rude, but it is direct, honest, clear, and blunt. It leaves no room for interpretation. “I don’t take lunch” could mean “My boss is a dick and won’t let me take lunch” or “I have a really big proposal due later this week and I’m working overtime to finish it” or “I’m on a diet so I’m skipping lunch” or “I don’t want to have lunch with you”. “No” means “no”.

If I were in a crowded office setting and I heard a guy ask a girl out and she replied with “I appreciate the offer, but no thank you,” I would not think her a frigid bitch. A frigid bitch would respond with a :dubious: and say, “With you? No thanks.”

Do you see the difference?

[Kalhoun]

@Lord Ashtar

Does this middle ground involve “investing in a cheap ring”?

It certainly could. Women have worn phony wedding ring forever to ward off unwanted advances.

[Kalhoun]

@Lord Ashtar

He’s not taking “no” for an answer because she never said “no”.

I know this will probably frustrate YWTF and Kalhoun even more, but I just don’t understand your aversion to a simple “no”. It’s not necessarily rude, but it is direct, honest, clear, and blunt. It leaves no room for interpretation. “I don’t take lunch” could mean “My boss is a dick and won’t let me take lunch” or “I have a really big proposal due later this week and I’m working overtime to finish it” or “I’m on a diet so I’m skipping lunch” or “I don’t want to have lunch with you”. “No” means “no”.

If I were in a crowded office setting and I heard a guy ask a girl out and she replied with “I appreciate the offer, but no thank you,” I would not think her a frigid bitch. A frigid bitch would respond with a :dubious: and say, “With you? No thanks.”

Do you see the difference?

I agree one response might leave him wondering if the door was still open. But that’s not the case. Evidently he can’t add.

[you_with_the_face]

@Lord Ashtar

He’s not taking “no” for an answer because she never said “no”.

“I don’t take lunch” is no. I don’t get why this statement seems so ambiguous to you. If a panhandler asked me for money and I said “sorry, I don’t have any cash on me”, isn’t it clear in this particular scenario that the statement leaves no room for negotiation? Only an blocked-headed jerk would keep hounding me for money after hearing this answer.

The panhandler analogy is an apt comparison. As I’ve already said, I’m not lying when I say that I don’t take lunch. I use that time to catch up on administrative stuff or making personal calls. When I cite that as an excuse for not taking up his offer, that is no different than me telling a panhandler that I have no change when I really don’t have any change. Now, even if I did have change, I would be averse to giving it to someone who might have an addiction to feed, but the handler doesn’t need to know all of that. The only point he needs to know is that his request is being denied for reasons out of his control. Period.

I know this will probably frustrate YWTF and Kalhoun even more, but I just don’t understand your aversion to a simple “no”. It’s not necessarily rude, but it is direct, honest, clear, and blunt. It leaves no room for interpretation.

No, but as I’ve already stated, it begs for further explanation. A simple “no”, in my experience, is never simple because it often turns into a ten-minute conversation wherein I have to justify the refusal. Do you know how uncomfortable that is?

“I don’t take lunch” could mean “My boss is a dick and won’t let me take lunch” or “I have a really big proposal due later this week and I’m working overtime to finish it” or “I’m on a diet so I’m skipping lunch” or “I don’t want to have lunch with you”.

So what? Why does anyone need to know why the offer is being turned down? Aren’t I entitled to keep that information on a strictly need to know basis? He is basically a stranger to me. Strangers don’t need to know the inner workings of my life and mind.

Think about the panhandler analogy again. “I don’t have any cash on me” could be due to a lot of different reasons. I might be poor. I might prefer to pay for everything with card. I might be allergic to paper. So what? Does the panhandler really need to know any of this? Of course not.

If I were in a crowded office setting and I heard a guy ask a girl out and she replied with “I appreciate the offer, but no thank you,” I would not think her a frigid bitch.

What if the conversation went like this?

creep: What about lunch with me?
girl: No thanks.
creep: Why not?
girl: Because I’m not interested. Thanks, though.
creep: It’s just lunch.
girl: I know. Just not interested.
creep: Can I ask why?
girl: Because, like I said, I’m not interested. Can you please stop asking me?
creep: Wait, are you not interested in having lunch? Or lunch with me.
girl: I’m not interested in having lunch with you.
creep: Why not?
girl: :mad:

Sure this conversation is not the end of the world. But “no thanks” does not make the clean break that you and others are saying it would. The reason why saying just “no” hasn’t been an option I’ve exercised is because I’m dreading having to have this particular conversation. The convenience of “sorry, I don’t take lunch” is that it says “no” while also giving a explanation that doesn’t make the situation personal or uncomfortable. Just the way I like it.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@you with the face

No, but as I’ve already stated, it begs for further explanation. A simple “no”, in my experience, is never simple because it often turns into a ten-minute conversation wherein I have to justify the refusal. Do you know how uncomfortable that is?

<snip>

@you with the face

Why does anyone need to know why the offer is being turned down? Aren’t I entitled to keep that information on a strictly need to know basis? He is basically a stranger to me. Strangers don’t need to know the inner workings of my life and mind.

This is pretty much what I was about to say in response to the first part I quoted, but then you went and said it better than I could have.

@you with the face

What if the conversation went like this?

creep: What about lunch with me?
girl: No thanks.
creep: Why not?
girl: Because I’m not interested. Thanks, though.
creep: It’s just lunch.
girl: I know. Just not interested.
creep: Can I ask why?
girl: Because, like I said, I’m not interested. Can you please stop asking me?
creep: Wait, are you not interested in having lunch? Or lunch with me.
girl: I’m not interested in having lunch with you.
creep: Why not?
girl: :mad:

If that’s what happened, I would think him a dick. But we don’t know if that’s what would’ve happened in your particular situation because you never straight up told him no.

The whole reason I started this thead was not to rehash your situation, but to try and get a few people’s opinions on how they would’ve liked to have been let down when being refused for a date. Most of the responses have been about what I would’ve expected. We (meaning not just men, but whoever is doing the asking), when being turned down, would like a clear, direct, and unambiguous answer.

Just to be clear, I’m not denying that creepy guys who will follow the object of their affection around, constantly asking again and again and again when it’s already been made clear (by saying no, not by “dropping hints”) exist. I was just trying to make sure that I wasn’t the only one who thought like I did.

[you_with_the_face]

@Lord Ashtar

If that’s what happened, I would think him a dick. But we don’t know if that’s what would’ve happened in your particular situation because you never straight up told him no.

If somebody doesn’t stop asking a person out to lunch after that person has repeatedly turned down their offer, it’s highly likely that a simple no will not suffice. Think about this for a minute, please.

Look, I’m generally sympathetic towards men because it’s takes guts to ask somebody out. It’s hard to receive rejection, I know this. But men need to understand that handing out rejection can also be hard. At least when you are setting yourself up for the possibility of rejection, that is within your control. You can choose to ask someone out or you can choose not to. But when you are the recipient of an unwanted request, the act of rejecting someone is thrust upon you. It is an imposition of sorts.

So when someone is doing the asking, the polite thing for the askee to do is treat that person with dignity and respect, with the understanding that they’ve put their heart on the line a little bit. That means not laughing at them, hurling insults, or being otherwise rude. And the person who is doing the asking needs to realize that in a way, their request might be imposing discomfort on the person their asking. And so they need to realize they may not get a frank and 100% honest answer because of that discomfort.

In other words, just because guys may want a direct and unambious answer, that doesn’t mean it is fair to expect that all the time. There has to be some compromise.

[Telperien]

@Sage Rat

Well this probably wasn’t a case of what you’re thinking of. Saying “I wish that guy would ask me out” was from her vantage a subtle hint for me to stop my advances. We weren’t to the stage of making out, but more things like me sliding my hand over her behind and such.

But, while true that she should have stopped me from putting my hand on her butt, I never had actually asked her out, assuming that my intentions were understood and that I was being blatant enough in my interest. So you could just as easily say that I never gave her a chance to explicitly say no. (Lesson learned and so on.)

Ah. Well, that’s better. (Well, not better, but you know what I mean.) I guess I don’t get it because I’m not one of those subtle hint type of people. I am almost completely unable to pick them up, and so I don’t try to send them, either. I’m fairly direct out of self-preservation.

Also, I’ve seen a lot of what I thought you were describing, and though it’s none of my business, it still makes me somewhat aggravated.