Inspired by this thread in the Pit. To sum up, the OP has a guy who’s at least twice her age constantly asking her to lunch. She’s tried to “drop hints” that she’s not interested, but he doesn’t seem to be getting it. Kalhoun and I got into a little sidebar when she suggested that the OP would need to lie in this case. I asked her why she thinks she thinks she should lie, to which she replies:
Now, I’m not a 60-something year old man hitting on a hot young thing half my age, but I am a single guy in my late 20’s. I know that if I’m hitting on someone and she’s not interested, I’d really prefer that she just be straight up and honest with me. Sure, it’ll hurt at first, but then I can stop wasting my time and go pursue someone else. Now I’d like to hear what the rest of you think.
To those being asked out: how do you think is the best way to handle it?
To those doing the asking out: how do you feel about them beating around the bush in order to spare your feelings?
Feel free to share any other thoughts on the matter.
How about trying “We both know how people talk around here - I wouldn’t want to have the subject be us. I make it a policy never to lunch with a colleague in the interest of gossip mongers we know are here”.
I’d be honest. I was honest with the man I mentioned. I mean I was polite for a long time, until I findally said. “Look. You’re very nice but I have been in a LTR for over 10 years and am not interested in a change. I don’t want to lead you on in any way.”
The new one (read my post) has been way milder so I haven’t had to resort to this yet.
I think a little white lie can be preferable. A few years back I asked out a waitress who was about six miles out of my league. An honest response from her would have been “Eww, no way.” Instead she beamed and said she was flattered, but she had a boyfriend. I walked away feeling pretty good about myself, and never bothered her again. Win/win.
On the other hand, straight up truth works, as in the woman that told me she was a lesbian. No arguing with that one, and it was no reflection on my manliness. (And yes, I know she was being honest.)
Dating is a bloody, violent, ugly tragedy of Biblical proportions. If we can all approach it with a little consideration for the feelings of others, it makes everything slightly less unpleasant. If a few little white lies make that possible, then so be it.
There are exceptions, of course. As in the linked thread.
When I was younger and I ran into this problem with older guys, I also found it very hard to be forthright - don’t want to insult anyone, hurt their feelings, etc. etc. Trouble is, it only produces more anxiety when the asker is thick as a plank and doesn’t (or won’t) take the hint.
It took a long time for me to develop the personal confidence to be blunt while also being polite, but it’s usually pretty effective.
Now, if I were interested in someone but they weren’t interested in me, I would hope that they’d be equally forthright with me. I don’t want to waste my time OR theirs.
Actually, you left out the most important part of that exchange, which is the fact that the OP is uncomfortable with the bluntness. This guy is immune to “subtle” and she isn’t comfortable telling him in harsh, honest terms. I agree she may have to resort to that, but why put yourself through the stress of getting “honest” with The Clueless if a little lie will spare his (and your) feelings?
What I don’t get is why anyone needs to have the truth spelled out in flashing neon letters before they decide to quit wasting their time. I could understand needing honesty if the other person is being ambiguously flirty or something, but not if they’ve already told you no in so many words already.
I don’t think honesty is the best policy in every situation. The guy in the thread I started is actually provoking me to be honest. Most of the time I’m not honest when I turn down strangers/acquaintances because I don’t know exactly how they’ll react. “I’m just not into you” might cause an unstable person to flip out. Or it might extend the conversation longer than I’d like. Sometimes it’s easier and safer to make up a lie that doesn’t insult anyone personally.
There is something that you need to know about men. We can be all sorts of clued in about many things in life. However, there are two things about which we are deaf and blind morons:
Like I said in the other thread, most guys will persist after you’ve said no because sometimes it works. Some girls were raised with the idea that they had to play hard to get, or they’re afraid that if they say yes to quickly they might be perceived as easy.
It’s nice that you want to spare feelings, but there are times you need to be absolutely, 100%, unambiguously clear.
I have to disagree, both with the idea that it’s the “best thing” and that the main purpose of the lie is to spare the recipient’s feelings. In most cases it’s about the would-be liar’s desire to avoid confrontation, and to spare them the awkwardness of saying something that may not want to be heard.
I can relate to it, though, because I (in real life, anyway) avoid confrontation whenever possible. Just recently I was invited by an acquaintance to a church-based event that I didn’t care to attend, as I’m an agnostic and don’t attend church. I considered making up an excuse or simply saying I was busy, because I felt awkward about identifying myself as a non-Christian, and thought it might open a can-of-worms discussion on the subject.
Instead I told the truth, as politely and succinctly as possible. The person who invited me said that was fine, and now I (hopefully) won’t have to deal with future invitations of a similar sort. So yeah, I think sometimes dealing with a moment of unpleasantness directly is far preferable to passive-aggressively dragging it out into perpetuity.
Specific to ywtf’s problem, I think Hollywood is partly to blame, with its decades of romantic comedy schlock in which the quirky, annoying suitor eventually wins over the heart of the ice princess with his persistent stalking. (Watch for the old guy to show up outside your window in the rain, wearing a trench coat and holding up a boombox playing “your song”…)
I haven’t seen that with most men that I’ve turned down, but then again if it’s a stranger usually the scope of my interaction with them is brief and one-time. I do have a persistent ex-boyfriend who keeps hounding me to get back with him, but I’ve been honest with him (repeatedly) and that doesn’t seem to discourage him any. He still clings to hope. I guess because I’m still nice to him.
Although I dosee where you’re coming from, I really don’t think honesty (or a lack thereof) is the problem. Sometimes guys won’t quit until you do everything except scream at them. And even that’s not enough sometimes. It should not be this way.
If a gal isn’t interested in you it’s not important as to why she isn’t interested but rather the guy respects that she isn’t.
Some guys I think who are so hell bent for bluntness are just feeding in to their own insecurities.
There a lot to be said for “Ignorance is bliss”
Really, I don’t want to rack my brain for a week because some girl turned me down because she finds bald guys physically repulsive. It’s much easier on my ego if a woman just says: “Not interested” That why I can convince myself she MUST be a lesbo not to want to go out with me.
OK I’m kidding about the lesbo part but you get my point.
(BTW I’m not implying the OP is as I described above.)
YWTF couldn’t be more clear if she was a windowpane. A lie would not be “unclear” to the creepy dude. It just wouldn’t be the truth. These are two separate issues.
And, as **TDN ** said, her comfort level has everything to do with the decision to either lie or put an emotional smack-down on the guy. She doesn’t care why the guy won’t take no for an answer. She just wants him to take it without being really mean to him.
As a guy who used to be clueless about women, there’s an easy way to be polite AND blunt at the same time. When a woman responds to a request as “I can’t, I have plans” or “I’m busy” or “I eat on the run” or whatever, it implies that if she didn’t have plans or wasn’t busy, she might say yes. Obviously, depending on how interested the guy is, this leaves a crack that he can exploit. Further, as another mentioned earlier, guys are used to women playing hard to get, and those sorts of answers play right into that.
For the sake of all that is good and pure, please don’t give an excuse; give a simple answer. If you’re not interested, say “No thanks, I’m not interested”, then you don’t have to result to being rude unless he’s truly thickheaded. If you are interested, but really are busy, just say “I’d love to, but [insert actual reason here].”
Also as a guy who has been on the other side as well (that is, pursued by a persistant girl in whom I have no interest), I know it is difficult to out right say “no, I’m not interested”. These days, when these sorts of things happen, I generally straight up ignore the come-ons and continue the conversation, or simply move on. However, when a girl crosses the line, as I imagine is the fear for women being approached by persistent men, I can simply say “Please don’t touch me” and know I’m not in harm’s way, while I imagine it may not be quite so simple.
Regardless, most men who are persistent aren’t necessarily bad guys, they’re just getting the wrong signals (either because yours aren’t strong enough, or their receivers are broken) and when it comes through loud and clear, they’ll more often than not be respectful.
In the OP in the other thread, she claims to have responded with phrases such as
“I don’t really ever take lunch.” “I’m really very busy.” “I eat on the go, sorry.” and “You’re quite persistent, aren’t you?” Sure, that’s as clear as a windowpane… smeared in mud. It’s a clear message to the speaker, but not necessarily to the person receiving it. I’ve seen these sorts of messages come from women and mean anything from “EWW… not in a million years.” to “I’m not interested, but I don’t want to hurt your feelings.” to “Man, you’re hot! I’ve got to play hard to get or he’ll lose interest.” To the eternally hopeful, naive, desperate guy, he’s going to hope it’s closer to the last, and he’s going to keep trying until he gets a clearer message.
Simple, pattern, no lying involved: 1) “No thanks”, 2) “No thanks, I’m not interested” 3) “No thanks, I’m not interested. Please stop asking me.” 4) “Please, leave me alone or I’ll report this to the boss/HR/police.”
You’re absolutely right, comfort level has everything to do with the decision. Clearly, women who are harrassed like this and continue to give veiled answers are more comfortable with being harrassed than with hurting the guy’s feelings.
Lying is definitely a worse option. Suppose you tell him you have a boyfriend when you don’t. What if he overhears a conversation of you talking about “going out to meet guys” or you later find one and he hears about how you broke up with him? The first causes him to hurt more than the initial rejection, and the latter just revives his hope.
Obviously, when I’ve been openly rejected, it definitely was painful, but I accepted that risk when I approached her to begin with. When I’ve gotten the confidence and gotten a number and she didn’t return my calls or whatever, it hurt a lot more.
I remember one case in high school, I occassionally saw a girl where I worked. I started a conversation, she smiled the whole time… all the good signals. I got her number and called her; only THEN did she start giving me excuses “I can’t, I’ve got to study” “No, I’m sorry, I’ve got to work tonight”. I tried a couple of times before I saw her with another guy about a week so later. I was heart-broken and I was unable to approach a girl again for several months thereafter because of how much more hurtful that was.
I found this to actually be a very ancient mindset. There is a famous Roman poet who, when he gives advice to men on how to win ladies, tells his students to keep writing to them. He says that if they keep writing eventually she will read and if she reads eventually she will be smitten. I found it quite amusing to read since I thought it was a recent thing.
Blaster Master, it’s not that they are more comfortable with being harassed, it’s that they buy into the notion that is drilled into many of us from a young age to avoid confrontation and to always be polite. Women are not taught to be assertive like men are and assertive women are often considered manly.
I am sure the girl in the last example you gave didn’t mean to hurt you because I used to be that girl. I’m a very friendly person and I smile a lot which is often mistaken for flirting. In the past, when guys had asked for my number or expressed further interest after what was, to me, a fairly normal conversation it seemed to have come out of left-field. I was reluctant to reject them outright because I was afraid of hurting their feelings. In fact, when I was much younger, I ended up in a relationship that I didn’t want to be in because some guy asked me point blank, “Do you want to date me?” out of the blue and I didn’t know how to reject him. Now that I am older I am more careful of my actions to avoid accidently misleading people and I know that a rejection of a person as a romantic partner isn’t a rejection of them as a person.
Really? What if you asked someone out dozens of times over the course of a few months, and each and every time, the woman gave you those kind of responses, accompanied with rather chilly nonverbal signs (like never lingering to talk to you in the hallway, always looking like she’s in a hurry). Would the truth still be muddy to you?
Honestly, how many women out there are playing hard to get months on end, after multiple offers? I never met these silly fools, but I can only imagine the kind of men they’re bringing home. Date rapists come to mind. (I’m not calling you date rapist, btw.)
I’m not saying that women don’t ever send out mixed messages, but come on! When a woman is not interested, it shouldn’t be that hard to figure out. And she shouldn’t have to be mean to get that point across.
