A question about property disputes.

Disclaimer:
I am not asking for legal help here. This is a purely theoretical question my husband and I were discussing.

Situation:
John and Jack are two unrelated individuals who own two adjacent plots of land in the town of Podunk, USA. They don’t keep very close tabs on this land they own, because they live elsewhere and it’s just something that’s been purchased as an investment.

One day, John decides to build a house on his land and hires contractors and civil engineers and whatnot. Somewhere along the line, someone buggers up and his building infringes one foot across the shared boundary into Jack’s land. John, who is a decent guy, has no idea about this.

Two years later, along comes Jack wanting to build something on his land, and his architects inform him about the mistake. He approaches John in anger and demands restitution. John checks into the matter, accepts he is at fault and immediately offers to pay Jack the current market value of the bit of land infringed upon.

Jack refuses and demands that the building be torn down. He feels that the pice of land will only appreciate in value over time and taking the current market value would be a raw deal. He drags John to court.

Question:
In such a case, what does the judge do? Has a legal precedent already been set that you know of?

A very similar situation happened to my father many years ago, it involved a garage though. My father had to tear down the garage and rebuild it 6 feet from it’s previous location.

You asked for non-legal help…IME in disputes like this, the court has almost always forced the infringer to tear down or move their structure. This often comes up in the case of suburban fences, where someone puts their ubiquitous cedar fence too far over the line. For this reason my sister, who is currently trying to get a fence built, says most contractors mandate leaving a 1-2 foot gap between the fence and the property line “just in case.”

I suppose however, in your example, if Jack waited too long, and lived in a State which allows for the so-called “legal theft of property” (also known as “adverse possession”, something I ran into myself), then John may be able to get the property and potentially pay nothing for it.

In case anyone wants to read more on adverse possession, here’s a site which has a summary of each state’s adverse possession law: http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/adverse-possession/. I didn’t check each state, but the minimum required duration of adverse possession is generally between 5 and 10 years, so 2-years might not be long enough. But again - each state is different, and this is not legal advice.

For someone to offer only the market value of the taken land in the case of an encroachment is a pretty poor deal for the encroached upon land owner and borderline insulting. If my physical house was actually encroaching on the other person’s land I would be doing back-flips to make the other land owner happy. It sounds like the encroacher is doing the absolute raw minimum to try and settle the issue (ie pay for the value of the strip he encroached on). Not a very proactive stance and borderline stupid.

To be frank for the house itself (not the setbacks which are typically 15-50 feet) but the actual house to be encroaching means there was a monumental screw up by the surveyor (hopefully a survey was done) who the encroaching land owner might be able to look to for monetary relief. If there was no survey done the encroaching land owner is looking both cheap and incredibly stupid at this point.

Now if this is a scenario where the home builders’s fence line is encroaching or he has too small a setback, but the house itself is within his boundaries, you can usually apply for a zoning variance, but you are describing the scenario as being the house itself being over the line which is way more problematic.

I have heard of this hapening. The encroached house reduced the empty lot’s size and reduced it below the mim lot size allowed to build a house. The solution a land swap. Jack and John deed over equal size sections of land to each other, with John paying all the costs.

This is why there are licensed & registered & certified land surveyors.

Thank you, Una and Kid Scruffy. That was interesting.

I’m actually curious about this case Astro mentions:

What if the building itself is encroaching on the adgacent property?
Case (a): It’s just a balcony.
Case (b): It’s part of a two-storey house. Maybe some room or wall-space.
Case (c): It’s a giant freaking commercial property that’s encroached in.

Does the judge force a huge payout in cases B and C? Has something like this ever actually happened?

Again, I am not looking for any personal legal advice here. I’m not in the US, don’t own property there, and have never even breathed its air. This is a purely academic exercise.

A case happened in Seattle many, many years ago. (at least according to the Underground Seattle Tour guide)

A man built a warehouse 1 foot over the property line. He tried to pay the neighbor for the land, but the neighbor refused all offers and demanded that he tear down the offending part of the warehouse. So the man tore down 2 feet of the building.

Later the neighbor built his building, righ up to the original building. The first man waited until it was done before informing the neighbor that now his building was over the line and demanded that he tear it down. The neighbor ended up going bankrupt and the first man bought the adjacent building and combined the two.

Well, let’s assume that the judge decided that the infringee had the legal right to have the infringing property torn down (at least the portion on the wrong property). He’s not going to say “The infringer shall tear down the building”; he’s going to say “The infringer shall tear down the building, unless an agreement is reached between the infringer and infringee.”

So if the building is tremendously valuable and the strip of property not that valuable in comparison, then deals can be made. There’s nothing that says the infringee has to take any deal, but assuming they’re not crazy, and the land really is less valuable than the building, then competent negotiators should reach a deal (probably for more than otherwise ‘fair market’ price for the land, but, hey, you pay more when you screw up. Tough.)

Wouldn’t that necessarily lead to her neighbors thinking they have one or two feet more on their property than they actually have?

This is all very counter-cultural to me. Around here the norm is that you plonk your fence dead on the boundary between two properties, and both property owners pay their share of the cost. I don’t remember the last time I saw a block of land that didn’t have a fence around it. Is it normal in the US to be able to just walk straight from one block to another?

Yes

And to be a bit more descriptive: We set up a slip and slide that went from our back yard to one 4 homes away. Yes, beer was involved, why do you ask?

In my last house, I either needed to present a property survey, or build along the existing fence line for the new fence. Since there was an existing fence, it was a no-brainer. I can’t think of anyone that would give up two feet just to be safe; now we’re back to adverse possession, or maybe something else.

I paid for the entire fence myself. I figured that if the neighbors had wanted to spend on new fence, they’d have put one in years before I got there. Plus it was simple chain link (read: cheap).

If you put up a privacy fence, most of the building codes demand that the ugly part of the fence face towards the property owner constructing the fence.

In buying my current house, much of the attraction was in finding a neighborhood without fences. A tiny little 0.48 acres isn’t much (well, in my area it is), but when they’re six in a row, it feels downright rural.

Apropos of nothing, but a cool fact pattern from an old case:

Dinan v. Gibbon, 63 Cal. 387; 1883 Cal. LEXIS 470 (Cal. 1883)

In many areas, yes - definitely. What’s the point of a fence (which can be expensive both to construct and maintain) when there’s nothing that needs confining?

Here is a case involving an encroachment by overhang:

Pahl v. Ribero, 193 Cal. App. 2d 154; 14 Cal. Rptr. 174; 1961 Cal. App. LEXIS 1682 (Cal. Ct. App. 1961)

The classic case is Kelsen v. Imperial Tobacco Co. [1957] 2 QB 334, which involved a sign overhanging the plaintiff’s property. See Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos - Wikipedia

and here is a recent case from the Solomon Islands that cites Kelsen and a few other cases: http://www3.paclii.org/sb/cases/SBHC/1999/114.html

I tried, sir. I really, honestly did. But still… :confused:
Could someone translate Gfactor’s information into English, please?

As an aside, “Cuius est solum eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos” is a beautiful line.

Cecil wrote a column about the doctrine: Can I declare a “no-flight zone” over my house? - The Straight Dope

In my neighborhood it was the builder himself who made the mistake, and built the entire house too far over, so it hung into the next lot. Since the builder owned that lot as well, there were no legal problems, and he simply sliced off a portion of that lot and added it to the other lot.

However, the newly trimmed lot was then too narrow for the zoning. The builder held on to it for years trying to get a variance, and eventually turned it back to the city for taxes.