How are two twins different? When the impregnated egg splits in two, the two halves had, up until that point, experienced the same existence.
But if my twin dies I don’t say that I’ve died.
I felt the same way until I realized I simply liked Wolverine more than Batman.
The whole monologue where he explains this smacks of self-denial. I think he knows quite clearly what is happening, but it trying to live the rationalization.
Good point. Another notch in Borden’s favor is that he seems to sincerely regret Danton’s loss of a family member, while Danton relishes taking Borden’s daughter.
Speaking of which, the funeral scene of Danton’s wife is another great “rewatch” moment. Borden LITERALLY doesn’t know which knot “he” tied because “he” didn’t really tie it.
Not only that, but they taunt you with dialogue that literally tells you they are giving away the ending.
A similar Dope thread someone should dig up is one asking about if teleportation were available which would copy you completely, disintegrate your current body, “fax” a copy across the world or galaxy, and “print” an identical copy with your exact memories and DNA, would you still be yourself? Very similar to the dilemma here.
This is probably as close to an answer to the OP as I will get!
:smack: Right, sorry, mixing names around here.
And yeah, it’s been a while since I’ve seen it, so you’re probably right. I think msmith has it, that the death of Danton’s wife, which he suspects was caused by a possibly-intentional act by Borden, drove him beyond just wanting to be the better magician. He had to destroy Borden’s happiness too.
Shit, you’re right. I just remembered that.
Of course not. And when the man in the tank drowns, we don’t say that the man on the balcony has died. Obviously, he has not. But when the man in the tank drowns, the man who threw the switch has died.
Let’s use your own example to prove the point. Here is a picture of a fertilized egg. For the sake of argument, let us say that this picture was taken moments before the egg divided into what would eventually become these two cuties.
So, which sister is that egg a picture of?
You didn’t answer the question.
In the story, the two copies of Danton are exact copies, with the same memories and everything. The Danton who writes in his journal about fearing the death waiting below the stage has never actually encountered it.
And to answer your question, the two twins have different personalities, and loved different women. It’s the difference between a Word document saved twice after a single sentence has been written and one that a copy was saved after the whole story was written.
I see your point and I am conflicted. I’m nearly at the point of agreeing with you but it’s nagging in my mind.
I don’t think Danton was literally split in half like an egg forming twins would. I think the machine very definitely creates a duplicate and leaves the original unchanged.
Identical twins are genetically indistinguishable. Any differences they have were forged by their experiences. What I’m saying is, if you were to take an infant and pop it into Danton’s machine (but without the whole drowning part) and make it so that there are now two of them, it would be exactly as if they were born as identical twins, including growing up with different personalities and different loves.
From a technical point of view, that’s probably exactly what it does. I mean, it can’t literally split him in two, because then you’d have two half-sized Dantons running around. Which would be hilarious, but would cost you a lot of the inherent drama in the situation. But the point is that, from the point of view of either people created by this machine, they’re both the original. When I say that the person who ends up in the tank is the same person who throws the switch, I don’t mean that the physical hunk of meat is the same. I mean that the personality, the sense of self, the soul, is the same. If you define a person as the sum of his thoughts, experiences, and personality, then there is no difference between the Danton that ends up on the balcony, and the Danton that drowns in the tank. From the perspective of either one of them, they are the one who stood on that stage and threw the switch. Therefore, the person who throws the switch must also be the same person who end up in the tank, and the person who ends up on the balcony.
No one’s disagreeing with that. We’re not comparing the Danton in the tank to the Danton on the balcony. We’re comparing both of those guys to a “third” guy: the Danton who climbed into the machine and threw the switch. Tank Danton and Balcony Danton are both the guy who threw the switch.
But you said yourself that you admit that the machine of course creates a duplicate. Both Dantons have the memory of flipping the switch but, seeing as the duplicate only comes into existence after the switch is flipped, only one of them has indeed flipped the switch.
After the switch is thrown there will be two different consciousnesses, one of which will experience pain, suffering and death, the other won’t (at least not this time). From the perspective of each it’s a seamless continuation of experience. Before the switch is thrown, Danton doesn’t know which fate “he” will live out (possibly very briefly).
You can say he is both Dantons but there won’t be one consciousness having two different simultaneous experiences of both drowning and not-drowning. In that sense he is not “both” of them.
That is only important if you think there is any **real difference **between the original and the duplicate. I don’t think there is, baring some kind of handwaving soul arguement.
Technically, we don’t even know that there is an original hunk of meat and a second, duplicate copy. It could be that the head and left leg of the original becomes part of balcony Danton while the torso, other leg, and arms drowns in the tank. Or maybe every other original molecule goes to the balcony. Or just two atoms.
Ship of Theseus, anyone?
There’s a real difference in that that is why Danton is worried whether he’s the one who will go in the box on any given night and that he isn’t both going in the box and not going in the box.
iirc, he explained it in the movie: he chose 100 to put additional pressure on Borden to come down to see what was happening. If borden never came down, Danton’s plan would fail, so by putting the 100 show limit on it, Borden would feel additional pressure to come down by or before the last show.
Thats sorta circular reasoning though IMO. Think about.
You are saying they are different because one goes in the box and one doesnt. Any why are they different? Because one goes in the box and one doesnt.
If you can’t tell me why the duplicate (if it even IS actually a duplicate as Chessic Sense points out) is different OTHER than where it ends up, then IMO at best it is a distinction without a difference. The guy in box certaintly can’t tell the difference. He remembers pulling the switch and having bad things happen shortly there after.
As I already said, they’re as different as a pair of twins, except that one is very definitely a duplicate. Also, his remembering pulling the switch does not mean that he actually pulled the switch. If we were to examine the machine or interrogate its creator he could tell us, for example “A duplicate is created a distance away,” which would mean that every night Danton was committing suicide. Or he could tell us that “The original is transported and a duplicate left in his place,” which would mean that every night Danton was cloning himself and then killing his clone.
And it isn’t circular reasoning.
“These two balls are different because one is red and one is blue.”
“And how are they different?”
“Because one is red and one is blue.”
The balls aren’t meant to be used as an analogy for Danton, just as an analogy to show why it isn’t circular reasoning. In your example you’re asking a question after I’ve already given you the answer and expecting a different answer.
Ignore the first half of my last post. Its been a long tiring day.
Lets put it this way. The guy probably DOESNT know how it works. Is it
REALLY a “duplicate” or is it 50/50 where both are half new half original or is a crap shoot where the original stays in the original place sometimes and swaps to the balcony other times?
In THAT case, the case of not knowing how it works, which seems like the most likely case to me, the original guy pulling the switch doesnt know for sure where HE is going to end up.
Or, pick the pure duplicate case. In that scenario, he is murdering “himself” everytime he does the trick.
Either way, thats one hell of a mental toll on somebody.
You are saying that guy is different because HE DIDNT pull the switch. Other of us are saying that 1, it doesnt matter and it doesnt make him different and 2, thats probably philosophically debateable that “he” didnt pull the switch.
Thats sorta where I was going with my craptastically worded circular reasoning turd.
I’d say it’s the same emotional toll as murdering your twin. Which is no small amount.
And you’re right, Tesla is shown to not fully understand how his machine works, I used the example of asking him and getting an answer for the sake of the argument.
It all boils down to: How do you think the machine works?
1.) Both individuals emerge from the “third” man, like twins splitting off from the same original egg.
2.) The machine creates a duplicate.
We can’t argue this point because we don’t know how the machine works. You could easily be right. I, for one, think the machine creates a duplicate. From what Danton says in the film I think that this is what he believes, too.
If I am right, this raises new possibilities:
1.) A duplicate is created a distance away and the original stays put.
2.) The original is transported and the duplicate is created in its place.
3.) Any time the machine is fired up both options 1 and 2 have a chance of occurring.
From your crap shoot comment I think that you think option 3 is most likely. I think it might be either option 1 or 2 but I definitely don’t think it’s 3. Either way, the surviving Danton would have no way of knowing which was in fact happening because he inherits all the original’s memories.
Regardless of any of this- I think it’s beyond obvious that Danton is more or less climbing into the machine each night and basically preparing himself for suicide. This is what touched me in the movie- this guy, so consumed by obsession that he’s willing to pay this ultimate cost and face what I believe to be the ultimate fear.
You’re right. This is certainly deep philosophical stuff that could easily be debated either way. But look at this way: You are one of the Dantons but instead of drowning or taking your bows on the balcony you and your twin go on to live your lives. Would you say that you and your twin are the same individual? This is essentially what happens with real life identical twins and this is the point I’m trying to make.