Please tell me if I’m creating a straw man, but are you saying that he can’t have that desperate because God would’ve helped him, and that he therefore must’ve been just selfish?
Wow.
Wow.
Try emailing auliya, I’ll bet you get a reply that is a lot more definite than one you’d get from your prayers. Better yet, gain auliya’s trust and meet him/her in a public place. No abstraction there, eh?
And like auliya and others have said: have you ever been in the grip of clinical depression? It’s not “the blues.” It’s not something that faith will carry you through. It’s as serious as a heart attack, and just as much of a medical problem as one, and no amount of “bootstrap effort,” good intentions, “tough love,” religious faith, love of humanity, love of life, or love of others can pull you out of it without medical intervention. I’ve been there, my friend.
I’ve come close to suicide several times in my life, and the only thing that worked without fail was doing as my doctor ordered. Not prayer (I’m an atheist. I used to be a Christian, and I really believed. It stopped making any kind of sense is the best way I can explain it without writing a book), not distracting myself with other activities, not giving to others to “get outside myself.” Medical help worked.
And I’ll tell you, when I was in the depths, anyone who had to say something disparaging to me was taken seriously by me; I believed them because of my general despair. So, yes, I tend to be quite judgmental towards parents who reject their children for being gay, goth, geeks, whatever. I think such parents are stupid and cruel. Their child who commits suicide may be “selfish,” but in our society, we are trained to turn toward our parents for guidance, and if parents are incapable of loving children without some bigotted trash tainting it, where can they turn? Suppose they’re too “weak” to find someone else to help them? Suppose they’re simply too confused by what they’re going through to see any other way out?
I am fortunate, in a way. A rather large part of my personality is a tendency to say, “Oh, yeah?” I’m a fighter, always have been. But I surely do understand the desire to commit suicide. At times, I have felt like nothing more than a tedious burden on people who love me and the world in general. My “fuck you” attitude has motivated me to get help…with lots of help from those who love me.
I don’t think suicide is the ultimate “selfish act” you portray it as. I’ve felt that despair and come out of it, with the help of those I love and modern medicine.
How about this, Joe, since you are religious, just think, “There but for the grace of God, I go,” and shut up with your judgemental crap about people suffering what pain you can’t imagine.
You haven’t been trained properly P.T. Smegma. You’re supposed to turn to God. Whoops. Forgot. Joe_Cool’s God hates you too. So I guess you’re just SOL.
Dude, I have known more gay men rejected by their “Christian” families than I can stand to think about. Fundies who have had their gay kids punished, exorcised, committed to “Christian youth camps” (aka religious prison)…need I go on?
You need to wake up and see the world around you.
You know, maybe Joe, you should stay out of threads about suicide and depression here. Because you obviously do not understand, or perhaps you do and just refuse to accept it.
Since we’re trying to fight ignorance here, you’re setting us back.
It’s part of the mystique, Guin. Fundaloonies believe they are a persecuted group, that the world is run by Satan and that society seeks to eliminate them, forcefully if necessary. They thrive on setting themselves up as martyrs to the cause. They need to be despised because Paul said they would be. Afterall, if they aren’t persecuted, then they must not be really Christians.
snort Yeah, I know what you mean, and that’s what pisses me off. The early Christians were fed to wild animals and boiled in hot oil.
While modern day Fundies whine about having to defend their views on an Internet message board.
:rolleyes:
Its not so much that they don’t love their children. Its that they refuse to acknowledge their existence. They love the child that they see in their minds and is straight and perfect and has no basis in reality.
I wouldn’t really categorize that as a fundamentalist thing though.
Let’s play that back one more time, so the audience can hear it clearly:
Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.
Actually, I was referring to Joe_Cool.
Esprix
Please, Esprix, since you know me well enough to directly disparage my personal definition of love, outline it for us.
Well I certainly haven’t seen any in this thread - you tell me.
Esprix
You made the claim. You back it up. You knew enough about it earlier to talk trash about me, so let’s see what you’ve got.
Dear Joe_Cool,
When Jesus died on the cross for us was that a selfish act?
Sometimes when people commit or try to commit suicide they are trying to help all those around them. They see how there existence only causes pain to themselves and those that they love. They see clearly and without doubt that the world would be a better place without them. They don’t know they are Ill, they don’t know that if they were to talk to the friends they have about this, their friends would disagree with the way they see their own situation. They will even go about there suicide in a way that is intended to not seem like suicide but an accident so that their loved ones need not suffer the stigma of a suicide in the family. Such people are Ill, such people need help. I was such a person. Such people are not acting selfishly. I hope you don’t believe that such people are acting selfishly in dying to help others. They are certainly misguided, maybe insane.
Cheers, Bippy
OK, let’s see:
[ul][li]You believe the Bible to be the Word of God.[/li][li]You try to live your life according to that Word.[/li][li]The Bible says that suicide is a sin.[/li][li]The Bible teaches you to love the sinner.[/li][li]You have referred to those who commit suicide in this thread as selfish and cowardly, among other things.[/li][li]Therefore, that must be how you express love.[/li][li]Webster’s does not define love in this manner.[/li][li]Ergo, you have a funny definition of love.[/ul][/li]
Esprix
Joe, do you mind responding to my post I addressed to you, or is it unworthy of your notice?
Maybe you could ignore the snarkiness in my previous post (and this one) and address my points. Sincerely,I have read from other posters that you don’t come across as such a rigid person in real life, and I’d be delighted to see that confirmed on the boards. That doesn’t by any means mean you have to agree with me, just that you are willing to concede that others may have a clue about what they’re talking about, based on their unique experiences.
Sorry, I didn’t see anything that demanded a response. But I’ll try…
And yet my God is more real to me than you, more real than this couch I’m sitting on and more real than my wife. Go figure.
I believe I already answered that: No.
So? Some suicides are the result of chemical problems in the brain. I believe that most are the result of selfishness and self-pity. “Goodbye, cruel world! Sob”
I don’t recall saying that rejection of your child is a sound parental doctrine. In fact, I said it was piss-poor parenting (not in those words). But deciding to kill yourself because mommy and daddy don’t throw you a “coming out” party is childish and selfish. People sometimes react inappropriately to stimuli that shock them or catch them off guard. One such reaction might be to tell the child “get out of my house!” Knee-jerk reactions are not intentional; they are automatic. And once people have had the time to consider the situation and their reaction to it, they most often come to their senses and give a more measured response.
But common sense enters into it on the child’s part as well. If you know that your parents are likely to react that way, you should damn well be prepared for it. If you see a strange dog lying on the sidewalk and poke it with a stick, and you don’t expect it to bite you, then you’re not using your brain. And if you know your parents think homosexuality is a sin, and they have no idea that you’re homosexual, you should expect a negative reaction when you unburden your soul to them. I allege that children should know how their parents are likely to react to a given situation, especially after 20 years of knowing them. If not, well, then something is wrong to begin with.
I’ve felt the same thing. But I realized that it was driven by self-pity and a desire to escape the circumstances I found myself in. Sounds pretty selfish, eh?
Mine has made me infamous on a large, well-known message board.
I don’t ‘portray’ anything. My thoughts on the matter were solicited, and I responded. You’re not going to convince me, and I’m really not interested in convincing you. You’re welcome to feel about suicide any way you wish, and I’ll do likewise.
I find it rather presumptuous that you consider yourself qualified to judge what level of pain I am unable to imagine, based on this extremely limited interaction on a message board.
I suppose I should qualify this with my experience. At age 20, I didn’t care what my parents thought about anything I did. I had lived on my own for 2 years, and didn’t need, or, more importantly, want their validation of me because I wanted to be independent. I can’t imagine being so destroyed that I’d want to end my life because my parents don’t approve of what I’m doing.
But I guess that’s just a symptom of society’s ills. Everyone wants to be taken care of. Nothing is anybody’s fault. We’re all victims of something (take note of the suggestions that I need counseling for an event that happened and was completely dealt with years ago). We all have something we lack and something we need and it’s dragging us down; making us miserable. And it can only be cured by years of therapy, counseling, and psychoanalysis.
I say B.S. It’s caused by the fact that we live in a society of entitlement. We are all raised to think we’re owed something, and when we don’t get our way, we feel despair. The sooner everybody realizes that the world owes us nothing, the better off we’ll all be.
Joe_Cool, your “fuck-you” attitude, lack of empathy, belief that God is more real to you than people are, disbelief that children are entitled to love and respect from their parents, and stated disregard for what others think of you all combine to make you sound exactly like a sociopath.
Wow.
As far as I know, nobody disowned by their parents for being gay is looking for “validation.” They just want to be accepted for who they are. It’s not an “entitlement,” it’s a desire. I suspect that gay kids live lives of lying, self-hating shit because too many people, including their parents, often, either explicitly or implicitly tell them that something fundamental about them is so heinous that they would be ostracized if they were honest about it.
And what about those, me included, who go through clinical depression? Do you seriously presume to tell me that I am “self-pitying” and feel I am “entitled?” Sonny, I wish! I have easily pulled myself out of “self pity and entitlement,” with a sense of humor and aplomb. Nothing to it. Depression is different. Depression kills. Make light of it all you want with your glib remarks about therapy, society’s ills, etc, but you just show me, and I suspect others, that you are a cold man. No, I don’t expect “sackcloth and ashes” over others’ problems, but, damn!, you just come across on the boards as someone who could give a fuck about someone else’s pain if it conflicts with your opinion of how things should be.
I pity you. Really, I do. But I especially pity anyone who would depend on you if they don’t fit your hard-bitten world view.