A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1)

That’s actually a serious problem that defense witnesses - and by extension, lawyers - can sometimes have, especially when confronting prosecution teams with such broad powers and big staffs.

Essentially, the issue is that the prosecution has the ability to decide that a defense witness is most likely himself a party to the crime, and to therefore indict that person too. Even the possibility of this happening could intimidate a lot of potential defense witnesses. By contrast, the defense team has nothing comparable to offer.

Ironically, one of Mueller’s top lieutenants was accused of just such techniques in the Enron case. (Note, however, that Tom Kirkendall, who made these accusations in the linked article, was a defense lawyer for people involved in the Enron case.)

Those damn pesky facts! It’s easy to contemplate the type of evidence that would prove useful at trial. It’s oftentimes a whole 'nother ballgame to actually find proof of those facts.

So, yeah, I agree that it would be ideal to have people testify that Manafort was unaware and at the mercy of business partners. Too bad they may not exist.

Judge Ellis asked in open court if the prosecutors thought he had made opinionated remarks. They replied, “Yes.” He then asked for examples, which the prosecution supplied. Though it appears that the jury was not present.

Golly gee I know! It is so TOTALLY unfair when the prosecution is as well-funded as the super wealthy defendant! It just STINKS. And don’t get me started about how UNFAIR it is that the prosection actually understands and executes the powers the law has granted to them.

So clearly, according to the part I bolded, Kirkendall had a glaring conflict of interest that might have colored his opinion.

Maybe.

So what’s the betting line on the Manafort verdict?

I’ve paid almost zero attention, beyond noting recently that the judge may have hampered prosecution’s case — was the judge fair?

I’ll bet on hung jury. 38% of Americans—probably 4 or 5 on a jury of 12— have absolutely no interest in integrity or truth and just want to Make America Great Again while poking their fingers in libtards’ eyes. Any takers?
.

I’ll go with hung jury too. I think a lot of the things the judge was complaining about were things that the prosecution wanted on record for some reason, but it did seem a little lingered on some things on both sides. Isn’t the real point of this trial setting up the next level of prosecution?

If anything, the judge has done the exact opposite. My bet is strongly in favor of a conviction on most of the charges.

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Mine as well.

Followed by an immediate pardon.

Yes. That’s what I meant. :smiley:

Also unlikely. For one thing, Manafort has a whole other trial with a slew of new charges waiting for him in the DC district. For another, a pardon may put Trump and his inner circle in significant legal jeopardy because Manafort could then be compelled to testify about his own potentially criminal behavior regarding the Trump campaign.

Yep but Putin is the only person that could possibly beat that into Trumps thick head. Gonna need rock hammer. Just like Andy Dufries, it’s gonna take a long, long time to penetrate.

And by then it will be “Squirrel !!!”

…wut

Squirrel!

Squirrel is dead, also moose.

Last year, when Arpaio got his pardon, wasn’t there a big stink about how it meant that by accepting the pardon, he was accepting and acknowledging he was guilty (and that was a thing because Arpaio didn’t think he was guilty at all and Trump didn’t apparently understand that fact either)?

Assuming I’m not misremembering and that’s true … how would accepting a federal pardon play for Manafort for suspected state-level charges?

There’s been a lot of speculation in the media that if Manafort cheated on his federal taxes, he cheated on state ones too, so theoretically State of NY could come after him. But if so, does saying “yup I’m totally guilty of the federal charges” generally mean the state ones are easier to prove?

I get State of NY would still need to prove he cheated on his state taxes, but it feels like it’d be easier, right? Am I missing something here?

Really? Seen a lot of cases where parties filed motions for curative instructions based on judicial error, have you? I haven’t. Sat through a fuckload of criminal trials, too.

Judge must have agreed, since he granted them. Even he realized he’d overstepped. Lots of former US attorneys who had tried cases in front of him also agreed.

I’ll allow he seemed to settle down with his antics quite a lot after the prosecutors yanked his leash.

I never thought he was actively working to throw the case to the defense. He just enjoys fucking with people. He strikes me as one of those judges who’s a little past his “use-by” date. Probably should have taken retirement more than a few years ago, but nothing in retirement sounds more fun than playing in the little fiefdom he now occupies on the T. S. Ellis Show. I knew more than a few of those.

septimus, re the Manafort verdict, the jury may hang on a few of the charges, namely the 4 counts of bank fraud. The path to Manafort’s conviction on those charges is a little more iffy because the president of the bank, Stephen Calk, appears to have entered into a quid pro quo arrangement with Manafort to take a job inside the Trump administration in exchange for the 16 million dollars’ worth of loans Manafort received. So there is some question about who actually committed the fraud: Manafort or Calk? Personally, I think Manfort’s intent to defraud is clear, but the jury may see it in a different way.

Other than that, the prosecution’s case is as strong as they get, the judge’s rulings and instructions (if not his open court commentary) were sound and if the jury follows their instructions, they should have no problem in rendering guilty verdicts.

But I will mention that in my experience, the primary area where trials go off the rails is due to juror misconduct. Sometimes a juror wants to “send a message.” More often, the jury is trying hard to do its job, but the complexity of the trial outstrips their ability to understand their role. Lastly, the “CFI effect” is a real thing.

Jurors almost always try very hard to do their job honorably and well. I hope this is such a case. That said, the kerfuffle on the day before closing arguments is likely a juror misconduct issue. Let’s hope the judge made the correct ruling to let the trial go forward without replacing a juror (if it was only one juror). This will surely be an issue on appeal. Saw that happen more than once, too – along with remands for retrial from the higher court.

Not something I bet on, I’m afraid. Sometimes jury’s verdicts made me wonder if we even sat through the same trial.

Don’t most state returns piggy-back on federal ones for the basic income statements?

Lance Ito rides again?