So I read what you had to say and find it reassuring to a point. I get concerned because you put a lot of trust or hope or faith in the
and their ability to pursue various threads of the investigation.
I guess I don’t understand why the President can’t just shut all that down since they operate under the DOJ. Am I wrong here? What certainty exists that those jurisdictions will be able to get anywere?
Furthermore, can’t the President simply issue pardons to anyone those jurisdictions bring up on charges? I always thought this was going to rest on the states, in particular NY state and maybe NJ to get to the bottom of any of these shenanigans.
Pardon all of them? Manafort, who flirted with treason for the sake of greed? Flynn, who was trusted to guard national security? If that isn’t enough for the MAGATs to puke their guts out, we’ll have to reappraise, from “deplorable” to “loathsome”.
In laying out my reasoning, I should have included a mention of all the farm-outs to state jurisdictions in addition to the federal ones. Mueller has been like a giddy fairy, spreading the joy like magic glitter dust. States of New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Florida, California and no doubt others, all have a piece of Mueller’s work if it falls within their jurisdictions in any way. They can pick up where the Feds left off. Can’t put toothpaste back in a tube.
As for pardons, they are a double-edged sword for Trump. They don’t protect the pardonee from state prosecutions, as Locrian pointed out. The pardonee also loses his/her 5th Amendment protections at the federal level, since there is nothing left to protect. So how do they help Trump? If they fail to cooperate/testify, new charges may be laid for obstruction or contempt. And none of this even touches on the huge political backlash Trump would endure for baldly abusing his power in these efforts to save his sorry ass.
Lastly, with respect to your concerns about Trump attempting to shut down dozens of prosecutions by US attorneys all across the land… just how much are we willing to sit back and take? At what point do you or I, as American citizens, rise up all together and say, “Enough! You, Mr. Dipshit, do not get to single-handedly abuse your power to tear down our entire system of government in order to protect your sorry ass!!” I know I will be right there, making my voice heard. Public pressure does matter. It has already had an impact on how far Republicans are willing to push. If we are collectively angry enough, it will make a difference. Quite a number of Republicans are already getting quite uncomfortable. We can make them much more so.
Other jurisdictions that matter and have the power to prosecute, safe from pardonable crimes: Manhattan District Attorney’s Office, Federal Elections Commission and the IRS. All have received referrals spun off from Mueller’s investigation.
I wasn’t aware Mueller was sharing so much with the States. Good to know that is happening.
All of this I already knew. I’m puzzled where you expect Trump to have any political backlash though. There is exactly zero to suggest it will be coming from the GOP. As long as the FOX propaganda channel keeps supporting him, nothing will happen to hurt him.
So far I’ve seen no evidence to support the part I bolded. In fact, recent actions by McConnell and Lindsey Graham suggest the total opposite. They are going to stand by Trump until the bitter end. Pretty much every Republican to oppose Trump left Congress in 2018. I’ve seen nothing to make me believe the GOP members of the Senate will ever allow any serious action against Trump to come to a vote.
This is good to know. I just don’t trust that the Senate would take action if the President began to meddle with any IRS investigation. I’ve seen zero to think they will risk alienating the base. Trump owns the GOP at this point. They will do everything they can to protect him.
Lindsey Graham is simply shoring up his constituency back home in South Carolina. His poll numbers plunge whenever he speaks against Trump. Now that he’s slavishly supporting him, Lindsey’s approval rating has risen to something like 71%. But I doubt Graham would miss any opportunity to shank Trump if the tide turns.
Also, it’s early days since the mid-terms. Less than 2 months! Keep an eye on Republicans as 2020 approaches. Pelosi’s resolution of disapproval re Trump’s national emergency declaration goes to a vote in the House early next week. I expect some House Republicans will vote along with the Dems. And since this resolution forces a vote by all Senators, it will be interesting to watch how many will swallow the poison pill and vote to support Induh-vidual 1’s harebrained scheme – and more interestingly, how many will not. They’ve got constituents to go home and face. Think Ted Cruz is going to support it? Even Lindsey Graham is looking grim over this one. Remember, Trump proposes to steal money from military housing budgets among other things in order to build Wall. Mr. Ultra-Veteran Supporter has got a few military installations in his home state.
As for McConnell, I’ll agree it looks for the moment like he’s prepared to down with the ship. But if Trump’s approval rating begins to slip as Meuller’s findings become public, or if it looks like he, McConnell is losing control of his caucus, he’ll turn like the viper he is – so fast it will make your head spin.
Three things I will offer in an effort to give you some comfort:
I was quite young, but I remember Watergate. Nixon won in a landslide in 1972 for his second term. His support was unreal and so discouraging to we liberal types. By August 1974, he had no choice but to resign. Public opinion can turn very fast.
Moreover, despite Trump’s best efforts with the help of relentless propaganda offered by Fox “News,” Infowars, Breitbart, Drudge, Rush, Sinclair, etc., 65% of the public support Mueller in his efforts. And this is before Mueller has uttered a single word. I find this statistic immensely cheering because obviously, it hasn’t worked.
The second thing is, don’t overlook the power of the House. They can subpoena Mueller to testify publicly. They can subpoena his report. There is little the Senate can do to stop these actions. Mueller’s findings will out, one way or another.
Lastly, indictment of a sitting president is not off the table. I’m hearing more frequent and louder discussions every day that SDNY may be ready to take the lead in this pursuit. It’s time this question is settled, once and for all. What a perfect opportunity to test it. The Senate can pound sand.
Don’t take this the wrong way, because I appreciate your posts, but I remember Watergate and the election of 1972 very well since I was in my early teens. I agree public opinion can turn very fast but Trump is not Nixon and his supporters don’t care about America or the rights granted to us as much as Nixon’s did.
I was in my 20s during Watergate and watched the hearings every day when I got home from work. Back then the MSM had major credibility because THAT was where you got your national news. Period. And public opinion did turn fast.
But it was the turning of the Republican party that forced Nixon out. If the Republicans of 1972 had stood up for Nixon and refused to admit he had done anything wrong, I don’t think he would have resigned. It was a different world.
I think the ONLY thing that will turn the Pubbies against thump is if they see him as damaging their own chances for reelection. That’s it. What he does, what he says, anything criminal or borderline criminal he has done–they don’t care and will overlook. Shooting someone on Fifth Avenue? Hell, he could suck Putin’s dick on Fifth Avenue and they’d rationalize it away and say Hillary was worse. Maybe if thump flew the Russian flag over the White House… someone might comment on that. Maybe.
OTOH, Aspenglow, I read your excellent posts avidly and cling to them like Leonardo DiCaprio did to that piece of flotsam in the Atlantic Ocean. I want to believe that relief is on the way.
Nixon had a lot farther to fall. His highest approval rating was 66%, falling to 24% when he resigned. Trumps’ highest has been 45%, and has generally been 40% or less.
84% of Republicans may support Trump, but Republicans make up only 24% of the electorate. So that translates to about 20%. Independents are about 40%. So if he loses more of the Independents, he’s toast.
I grew up in the sixties and was in college during the seventies. I don’t agree that the majority of people care less about rights now. A significant percentage of the population then was completely in favor of shooting down rebellious blacks or worthless hippies.
That’s why the Pubbies need strict voter i.d. laws that require a picture and a fixed address, ballot box tampering, limited polling places, NO holiday on election day, throwing away absentee ballots, and oh yeah, help from the Russians. The Electoral College got their boy elected, not the popular vote. 'Cause (as you point out) they ain’t all THAT popular, amirite?
However, Thelma, he is already damaging to their election chances as we saw in 2018, in which Trump turned the anti-incumbent mid-term wave into a rout for his own side.
And we are seeing signs of push back: Syria, Mitch allowing Trump to take all the heat for the shutdown then cockblocking him just a week ago, then forcing Trump to sign a bill which gave him even less money for the wall than he had in December then forcing Trump to make a politically unpopular emergency declaration which will be fought bitterly in the courts and has a very good chance of being overruled/made moot one way or another. GOP Senator Richard Burr saying that the Senate Intelligence Committee accepts the findings of the 2017 intelligence community assessment, including:
The Republicans have all the pieces to accuse him of conspiracy with Vladimir Putin (not “collusion with Russia” - that doesn’t even make sense), and the leadership is seemingly working to isolate him politically, allowing Trump to take all the punches for both his shit (the shutdown, the wall, Russia, more) as well as having him be the target for the general, and growing, dislike of GOP policies and their effects (tax refunds, for example). I think that the leadership has already begun the process of removing the tumor of Trump from the body of the GOP, but they have to make him even more unpopular than he already is (which is pretty damned unpopular!)
True. The parallels to Watergate are indeed apt - the biggest difference between then and now isn’t the politics or the crimes, but the media. In the 70s everyone was getting their news from Walter Cronkite, the most trusted man in America --we were all working off the same set of facts, and they were indeed facts as far as is humanly possible.
With Trump’s supporters only watching Fox, we’re one nation in 2 separate realities. It’ll be interesting to see if Fox even acknowledges the existence of House impeachment hearings, much less broadcast them.
I don’t know if Manafort has much support in Trumplandia, but Flynn was definitely railroaded and set up, from what I read when I venture over that way.
Until Trump turns on you, the MAGAs will support you in pretty much anything. Remember, the MSM lies.
