A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1)

The BBQ Pit
11603

There’s already a LOT of information out in the report that is disturbing. The only outlet I’ve seen that has actually reported or attempted to report the specific findings in the report is PBS, and that’s really just a summary. The information is there for all to see; we’re just not seeing it, and I’d say most of us don’t care to. The entire investigation into Russia’s election hack job is old news in the minds of voters.

That’s why I’m very, very skeptical that impeachment is going to do anything except blow up in Democrats’ faces until people are pissed about the state of the economy or something else that Trump has literally done to hurt them (maybe an Obamacare repeal, for instance). I think people pushing for impeachment don’t get it. Trump is a reflection of our democracy’s failings, a problem caused at the ballot box by ignorant voters. Most likely, he’s a problem that we’ll all have to fix, not by impeachment, but by having ordinary people organizing and resisting him, and eventually voting him and his ilk out of power for good.

And then? Get rid of Bill Barr, put in a real AG, and let the wheels of justice do their thing.

11604

Some of those pushing for impeachment are fantasizing about the announcement of an impeachment vote. They believe it will be an “in your FACE, Trump!!!” moment that will be cathartic and deeply satisfying.

I suspect many don’t realize that most Americans—50% or more—will buy the idea that this is similar to the GOP going after Bill Clinton for splitting hairs about what the phrase “sexual relations” means: a partisan attack without a real basis. (The woman at the Justin Amash town hall* whose remarks became a viral video is far from being an outlier.)

There’s a sort of “just do SOMETHING” feeling that’s being propelled by understandable disgust at Trump, and I sympathize. But the acquittal that will follow a vote to impeach will all but ensure more years of Trump. I would guess that a lot of people just don’t want to think about that. They want ACTION and don’t want to consider consequences.

11605

Allow me to rephrase: Yes, we do ultimately need to see the UNredacted version. My point is that there is so much damning information in the redacted version that we don’t need to wait around forever for the unredacted version. Frankly, I don’t think we will ever see an unredacted version.

11606

Quite the opposite. Failure to impeach gives Trump all the proof he needs to claim total exoneration. “The Democrats couldn’t prove a thing!” will be his campaign centerpiece. No impeachment guarantees a Trump reelection.

11607

Based on various clues, so far as I could tell from when I read the Report, nearly all of the content that is redacted is just materials related to the criminal cases against Stone, Manafort, etc.

I didn’t get the feel that there was anything lurking behind the black that would prove more scandalous than reading the indictment documents against those individuals.

There were a few things where it seemed like they had blacked out something stupid that Trump or one of his children had said, just to make them not look so stupid, but everyone already knows they’re all stupid so unredacting that isn’t going to accomplish much.

Congress would do better to get all of Mueller’s files than to get the unredacted report.

11608

I’m not saying we can’t impeach, just not now. Whether we actually go through with impeachment or not, I don’t know, but I do get the sense that Trump is slowly painting himself and his party into a corner, and it’s beginning to unnerve his allies. Case in point was the Senate’s smack down of his tariff. Most of us here predicted that this was a bluff, and it was obvious because Republican Senators made it clear that he was on his own. Trump is in no position to be on his own. He may have taken over the party, but Republican Senators still have to run for office and Trump isn’t necessarily a factor.

11609

Anything short of a conviction and he’ll say that - who cares what Donald Trump says? That’s not important. What’s important is convincing people who’s better at running the country, and that’s a question that Mueller’s investigation and impeachment can’t address. It’s that one question that matters: Is Trump good for the country?

Can he run this place without messing my life up? Can I still find work? Can I get healthcare? Can I live in a place where companies can’t just dump their filth in my back yard? Can I live in a place where my children can grow up in a fair and just society, with a good shot at being successful regardless of which side of town they grew up on. Democrats had better start making the case against Donald Trump (and for themselves) on this basis.

11610

Yep. Keep building the case. And keep letting him self-destruct. The Idiot can’t answer any question now without starting to rail against Mueller, Pelosi, the angry Democrats. He can’t even make a D-Day speech without doing so. I would like to see the motherfucker in jail tomorrow, but I would rather see him in the pit as the pendulum slowly comes down.

11611

too late to edit. The Idiot is a good-hearted man, change it to The Baboon.

11612

Yes, my point exactly. He’s clearly rattled, and Pelosi knows it. She just has to make sure she doesn’t overshoot because many of the House majority come from districts that are pretty centrist, and some even lean right.

11613

I said more than a year ago I was picturing that scene in The Ten Commandments where the old lady greasing the skids gets her robe caught under the stone. Maybe it’s because it made a big impression on me (I was six at the time) but I find it a lot more satisfying than John Kerr strapped to that damned table (where I was eleven).

11614

Yes. But.

He’s been rattled since he won. Claiming that Clinton got a lot of illegal votes, and claiming that he had a bigger inauguration crowd than Obama.

Pelosi may hope that something finally sets him over the edge. My question is - “What edge”? His supporters (including senate republicans) don’t care how big of a fuck up he is. Hell, they APPLAUDE it.

If he came out of his residence wearing nothing but underwear on his head, they would claim he was sleep walking. Or it’s a new fashion style.

11615

Case opened: Democrats begin public airing of Mueller report!

I just hope enough of the US public is paying attention.

11616

This will actually be a very good impeachment barometer. They don’t have to impeach yet; they can find out a lot just by talking about what’s actually in the effing report that the effing media, for whatever reason, can’t be bothered to discuss. Call it the Mueller Report book club. Televise it. Invite people to testify, if for no other reason than to verbally corroborate what’s in the report.

If the polls shift in favor of impeachment, then we’ll know it’s time for impeachment. If not, well, then we’ll know it might be time to move on.

11617

Or that he was fully clothed, and his nudity was FAKE NEWS from Crooked Hillary.

11618

Here ya go.

If he ever does wear ONLY his underwear on his head and nothing else … :eek: … I will probably have to gouge my eyes out.

11619

According to The Guardian (and Michael Wolff…), Mueller’s team had an indictment against Trump written up and ready to go:

Wolff says that Mueller wrote it up.

Obviously, there’s the question of whether it’s a real thing at all - the fact that someone other than Wolff has seen it is certainly encouraging, though it’s strange that it’s a British source. Conceivably, they’re just saying it because they don’t have to care about America’s libel laws.

If it is real, though, then my assumption would be that it either predates Mueller (e.g., having been written by McCabe or Comey or someone) or was done up by someone on his team, without being asked to. So, it probably is true that Mueller didn’t write one up.

11620

Didn’t we go through this already?

11621

If so, I missed it. Sorry, it was new to me and I’m pretty good at checking the thread usually.

11622

Trump will repeatedly crow ‘the Democrats couldn’t prove a thing!’ whether or not an impeachment vote is taken.

(Anyone want to bet actual money on the contrary?)

Well, we are speculating. For my money, a Senate acquittal guarantees a Trump reelection. And the Senate can provide him that glorious moment of Vindication/Exoneration/Exaltation only if the House votes to impeach.

Yep.

I have repeatedly said (in Elections if not in this thread) that impeachment must remain on the table. Trump definitely has earned an impeachment.

The question is, what are the likely consequences of impeaching? Right now: the aforementioned Senate acquittal, an end to investigation of Trump’s wrongdoing (how can the House hold hearings on a guy who’s been declared innocent?), and a magnificently-large margin of victory in the 2020 election.

What are the likely consequences of impeaching six months from now? We don’t know. It’s entirely possible that enough GOP Senators will have heard from enough constituents that they are Sick and Tired, and that a vote to exonerate Trump will mean that Senator will lose his-or-her seat.

If that happens, an impeachment vote might be appropriate. Why hesitate at that point? Because Americans have a history of ‘giving people a fair chance:’

If Pence is untarnished by any Russian connections or other issues, and becomes President after a Senate vote to convict Trump (sometime between now and November 2020), then there is likely to be a preponderance of voters who take the position 'none of this is Pence’s fault—we should give him a fair chance as President—vote Pence 2020. Jeez, the guy has earned it!’

So despite all the eagerness to see a vote to impeach Trump, it might be smart to wait on that vote until…later.

Vote to censure him, now. He’s earned that, too.