And now we are starting to see that Meuller was holding back information. Was it to protect his old pal Barr? Was it because he was being a good Nazi (err Republican)?
I mean, what the fuck.
Its starting to look that way, isn’t it.
There’s no logical or reasonable way to go down that trail. I’ve about decided we’re so dumb as a nation we get exactly the government we deserve.
What are you talking about, holding back information? Are you really this ill informed?
What’s being released now are the redacted portions of the report, which were redacted by Barr, not Mueller. Buzzfeed and other press members had to file a FOIA to get the redacted information – which was granted and finally turned over by DOJ. I guess Barr isn’t willing to quite ignore the courts he’s fucking sworn to uphold. Yet.
How you and others can ignore Barr’s role in this whole situation is gobsmacking to me.
I mean seriously, it’s Mueller’s fault that Barr lied about what Mueller’s report contained? And you think Barr and Mueller conspired for this to happen, knowing everyone in the country would be so dumb and lazy, they would ignore what is actually written on the first page of the 448 (not 800) heavily redacted report? Literally the second paragraph, where he says, “The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systemic fashion.” And in the sixth paragraph on page one where he said, “The investigation identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign.”
Yeah, that sneaky Mueller. Just… wow.
I don’t believe Mueller is part of the Russia conspiracy; I believe he feels personally outraged by Russia’s interference in US matters.
On the other hand, I believe Mueller’s wish to go on having lunch with Republican friends–which is simply part of his ‘do the job laid out and don’t make waves’ psychology–has not served the nation well. I believe that Mueller’s distaste for conflict led him to decline to push back on something he was clearly aware of: Barr’s deliberate and unethical conduct (the delay; the redactions; the misleading characterization of the MR) following Mueller’s delivery of the report to Barr.
Mueller could have been more forthright about what Barr was doing. But Mueller doesn’t like to make waves. He felt he’d done his job and he wasn’t willing to put himself out to protest Barr’s malfeasance.
He wanted to go on having lunch with his Republican friends. I do fault him for that. I don’t think he’s complicit in the Trump saga, but I do think he is, unfortunately for the nation, averse to putting himself out beyond what he sees as his job description. This is a man who would never become a whistle-blower.
But it’s a fact that not everyone is interested in being a hero.
In terms of Mueller, I think that he knew what he could get away with. He hid the jewels in corners and footnotes, buried it under layers of unrelated fluff like whether or not Russia attacked the country, and as a result of that was able to get the entire report released with minimal redaction containing a good amount of impeachable conduct by the President, if the political situation allowed it to be used.
I also think that it is likely that both Mueller and Barr know that Trump is compromised and that somewhere in there, the decision has been made to protect that secret because the alternative is the risk of war with Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc.
Whether that is true or not, Mueller certainly had to contend with the issue that Trump’s orbit contains a lot of people who are, on a daily basis, doing unethical and criminal things. Extracting the one strand from the ball of crime cleanly, without revealing all of the other things being investigated by the FBI (and, probably, CIA) is another problem.
Ultimately, you need to get Trump on something that’s the right size of scandal and which doesn’t endanger national security or risk letting a bunch of really evil people fly the coop.
It is quite possible that Barr is, in some way, the secret hero in all of this, falling on his sword and depraving himself in the name of the long game: Minimize Trump’s damage, let the guy think that he’s running things, keep us out of wars, and work a bit sloppier should the right sized crime come around that they can remove the guy on.
Interesting theories, Sage Rat. I agree that Mueller knew he couldn’t get “it all” out into public view. I can agree, too, that national security considerations were part of his calculations.
But he could have pushed harder to have Trump answer questions under oath. He could have investigated Trump’s finances—yes, even if those finances are entangled with Russia. That could have been done without necessarily plunging us into war. He could have been more forceful in contradicting the picture Barr was painting of the Report.
As for Barr being a true patriot, merely pretending to enable Trump in order to save the nation…that’s a tougher sell. Barr’s conduct doesn’t (to me) support that theory; for one thing, why would he have deliberately misled the public about what was in Mueller’s report? I guess you’d come back with ‘to lull Trump into believing he (Barr) truly was Trump’s Roy Cohn’ or something along those lines. But …it’s a tough sell.
Mueller could have testified that “this shit is really fucked up, and corrupt beyond belief” and we would still be left with Republican representatives and senators who consider it a badge of honor to have not read the fucking thing.
No. He doesn’t give a shit who he goes to lunch with, and you have exactly zero evidence for the assertion that it is so. The guy is a decorated Marine, for fuck’s sake. Do not try to tell me about his “distaste for conflict.” He’s already a hero.
A partial recitation of his military record (Wikipedia):
He led the FBI for 12 years, over 2 different administrations, one Republican, one Democrat. He led them out of the ugliness of 9/11, after everyone blamed the FBI for not sharing intelligence that they felt might have avoided the attack. He was named to that job a whole week before 9/11.
You and others may not like that he didn’t come out and set his hair on fire after Barr fucked him, that he wouldn’t sit and spoon-feed his complex, detailed and very thorough report to drooling idiots who apparently can’t spare an attention span beyond 140 characters, but this is not his failing. It is ours. To besmirch the exemplary record of such a person simply because he respects process and eschews public spectacles is, frankly, disgusting.
All he asked is that the public read the report. He is a creature of the chain of command. You don’t defend the rule of law by stepping outside of it. Why do you think Democrats have been pursuing their impeachment obstacles through the courts? Hey, maybe they’re secretly on Trump’s side, too! :rolleyes: And Mueller, sure, yeah, yeah, he didn’t mind sacrificing his sterling reputation earned over a lifetime just to give Barr a little nudge-nudge for Trump’s sake! He’s a pussy, right?
Democrats, progressives, moderates and yes, sane Republicans are at a perennial disadvantage if they respect the inherent limitations of a just system. It sucks, but if you fail to accept this, you simply become as ugly as Trump Republicans are, breaking laws and shitting all over the rule of law – which we claim governs us.
Shame on everyone who has indulged in these idiotic flights of fancy about Mueller’s motives.
And Sage Rat? Barr is a loony piece of shit. Make no mistake about that. He’s trotting all over the world trying to shore up Trump’s insane ‘Ukraine interfered in 2016, not Russia’ CT. He’s ignoring referrals for lawful investigations. He’s ignoring subpoenas and summons. America’s lawyer. Real hero, you bet.
I’m not sold on the theory by any means.
But he is, purportedly friends with Mueller - which seems strange if he’s a complete hack and toady; he was chosen by GHW Bush as AG and that Bush was a fairly straightforward and trustworthy guy; and Rosenstein did seem to vouch for him (though, that simply could be a matter of having been his employee at the time).
But I do grant that he’s been a very effective complete asshole.
Changing topics but one thing that does confuse me is how Trump still has lawyers other than Barr?
You can’t read the Mueller report without coming to the conclusion that Trump’s lawyers have acted unethically and need to be disbarred.
I know that process takes some time - I think it was a year after Michael Cohen’s criminal conviction that he was disbarred - but a fairly good amount of time has passed since then and Mueller have them a lot of stuff “on the record” to start off the process.
I don’t see any real risk of war when the depth of Trump’s allegiance to Putin is exposed (if ever). Putin comes out the winner either way. Either Trump continues to be his puppet or he gets to gloat that he ran the biggest con of the 21st century. Saudi Arabia is likely pissed at this point that they didn’t see how easy it was to manipulate Trump earlier. Erdogan has his victory.
Yet he managed to testify before Congress and not say, “Barr’s redacted version of my report is, at best, a misleading version of the facts, at worst a fucking lie.”
Yeah, this.
I was cutting Mueller slack until recently. I realize it is difficult to push back against a corrupt system. I realize that he had prime directive, probably issued by Barr, that he wasn’t allowed to say anything negative against Trump. Because there was no mechanism that would allow him to clear his name.
But funny how the FBI accused HRC of careless and negligent behavior even as they “cleared” her, which left her in the same position of being unable to clear her name.
But I think for a prosecutor to “decline to make a traditional prosecutorial judgement” was a dereliction of duty. And I do think there were underlying crimes, other than the obstruction, that were deserving of prosecution.
And all this whitewashing has emboldened Trump, who has interpreted all this as a mandate to do whatever he wants, regardless of legality. And I am surprised that a person like Mueller, who has invested his life in the reputation of federal law enforcement, is standing idly by while these institutions are destroyed. And I suspect he’s scared. He’s seen how he’s devasted the lives of Comey and McCabe, who are good conservative men who tried to make a stand. And I suspect he’s putting his pension and freedom ( the DOJ is still trying to drum up criminal charges against McCabe and Comey ) ahead of his principles. And while I can’t say I’d blame him, I hoped he had more integrity than that.
Old news, right? Not really. Most of my recent frustrations come down to the current events that lead to the current impeachment inquiry. I get frustrated because everyone thinks it a new situation when ITS THE SAME GODDAMN THING, pro-Russian Ukrainian interests attempting to infiltrate US politics in order to influence US foreign policy.
And Trump, Barr, Giuliani and are attempting to negate and discredit the entire Mueller report. Not just the No Obstruction, No Collusion part. They are trying to clear Manafort by making him out to be a victim of US foreign policy. They are trying to rewrite the narrative of Russian collusion to make Russian a victim of Ukraine, the Democrats and years of pro-Western Ukrainian policy.
And yet Mueller is silent, as always. It seems like he is unable or unwilling to defend his conclusions, which negates his work. And so it goes.
I haven’t forgotten Barr’s role AT ALL.
This is what I was trying to say.
Mueller needed to place himself in the gears and say that he could not make any determinations unless he heard from the president in person. Imagine a special investigation where the pres gets to opt out?
Not doing this was a failure in his function. A majority of americans voted against dt and they are paying his, tirnps and all the other salaries involved. They are all working for us. It is a betrayal of every voter.
I think that instead he basically punted, to “anyone but himself.” “You know you need to impeach him but I’m a marine and I have my privacy to protect. Go to it”
Putin has already gotten much of what he wanted. So did MBS and Erdogan.
Legally, his function doesn’t exist (as you envision).
There is no clause in the Constitution for impeachment spearheads. Mueller’s role existed as a minimally modified Federal attorney general, working at the order of the President, under the guidelines and under the same command structure as any other Federal attorney general.
That role is problematic at a fundamental level. If the executive is unimpeachable (i.e., trustworthy and honest), then the role is not called for and somewhat useless. If he is corrupt, then having that role be a subordinate to him immediately nullifies the role in nearly all instances.
But, likewise, giving Congress free reign to create and operate their own “impeach agents” over the Executive could be vastly misused and make the Executive a meaningless role, just a toady to Congress.
More fundamentally (I would say) is that the role is simply not
meant to exist and should not (under our Constitution) exist. That it does is an artifact of things having gone wrong. That such a thing had to be created is, in essence, already a Constitutional crisis, it’s just one that happened before our time and became somewhat acceptable because it mostly worked in the case of Nixon.
There is, for example, the Borda Count, a simple system of performing a ranked vote.
If you give the Borda Count to a bunch of honest, upstanding people who are quite happy to abide by the outcome of the vote, whatever that may be, then it is a completely decent and workable voting method. Whereas, if you give it to people who will play games to get their way, then the system immediately breaks down and it creates a race to the bottom.
The fundamental concept of a governmental representative is that it is a person whom the people know well enough and respect well enough that they are willing to delegate control of their region to that person. Giving that sort of power and control to someone who is not trustworthy would be stupid, after all.
Of course, this was a time when the voting base is a small group of educated land-owners who are all in close contact and in the same social circles, knowing who the crazies, rogues, etc. are and who are the people who are quite boring and reliable. And, we should note, anyone who is too much of an ass has a pretty high chance of getting a sword stuck through his chest.
During the campaign, when Trump insulted the one judge’s Mexican heritage, for example, it probably would have been completely expected that the judge would proceed to challenge Trump to a duel, giving Trump a 50/50 chance of having the blood in his body necessary to continue campaigning - if this had been the 18th century.
The fundamental issue of our political issues today is not that we’re using the electoral college instead of the popular vote or that we haven’t found the right criteria for a head impeachment investigator, it’s that we’re not electing people who are trustworthy. We should be able to trust that our representatives in government will, of their own, impeach a corrupt President. There should need to be a quasi-fourth branch of government to investigate and freely choose to declare whether or not the President has committed impeachable acts because Congress is so full of craven and corrupt human facades that they can’t muster up the strength of character to defend the Constitution.
If you’re at that point, Mueller is not the problem.
Mueller had a job, powers to do it, and the opportunity to make himself matter.
If he let the chance slip by it wasn’t because he couldn’t do anything. He was Ok with sliding into the muck to maintain his comfort and privacy.
Plenty of people who voted against dt were watching Mueller decline to interview dt and saying wtf. We were paying the bills for this, were being treated like the pres was not our pres, but only that of his base, and …no interview???
We should never forget Hillary! (I don’t mean her emails. I mean 11 hours of testimony from her vs 0 from the actual president.)
I agree with these points. Taken all in all, Mueller could have done more to stand up for the rule of law. His silence gives comfort to those asserting that a president is above the law.
I’m sorry that Aspenglow objects to these views, as I do respect Aspenglow a great deal. I can’t agree with the proposition that Mueller’s undoubted courage as a Marine confers immunity from being criticized for his choices, though.
It’s a whole other thread, of course, but we can no longer follow the example of the framers, who on no account wanted to insult George Washington by hedging him about with requirements and mandated oversight of his affairs.
As you point out, for many decades we have not had the luxury of assuming that a presidential candidate will be honest and honorable. So we need a comprehensive set of requirements that all future presidents must meet—including being subject to full investigation of crimes during their terms, with possible prosecution to follow their leaving office, unprotected by any statutes of limitations.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but… serious questions:
[ul]
[li]They must meet these requirements or what?[/li][li]Being subject to full investigation by whom? [/li][li]Prosecution by whom?[/li][/ul]
For such regulation to work, both sides have to submit to it. We’re seeing right now what happens when one side disregards the law, and the other side can’t or won’t enforce it.
If Mueller had forced Trump to testify, Trump would either have lied his ass off, claimed to not remember anything, or pleaded the 5th all of the way through. In the first instance, Mueller could have added perjury to obstruction of justice and that will would have simply amounted to an “add on crime”.
Clinton was never going to get impeached for getting a blowjob and Trump was never going to be impeached for being a whiny liar and bully. These are fundamental components of these individuals that the general public knew and expected going in. Mueller would have been wasting his time.
If you can get Al Capone on taxes, great. But getting him on jaywalking, when the guy can easily afford the ticket is a waste of effort.
Mueller’s one shot to get Trump was to flip Paul Manafort. The instant that fell through, Mueller called it a day and stopped fighting for the sit-down with Trump. If there was something more that he could have done to get Manafort to flip, I don’t know. Probably nothing legal.
Beyond that, all he could do was hand off all the other crimes he saw and hope that someone else would find the path back to Trump and be in a position to do something about it.