[Homer Simpson]
Jesus, Buddha, Allah! I love you all!
[/Homer Simpson]
Doesn’t your skull get all crusty and nasty if you don’t pop a fresh one in every so often?
-Ben
JerseyDiamond, I really don’t know if I should be pissed off at you assumptions or just laugh them off. But it’s late, I’m not tired, and this is keeping my mind off of having to put my 18 year old dog to sleep today. I’m sure this isn’t get to know Bill time, but this does pertain to the OP in a way. So here goes…
Your assumptions amaze me. It scares me that I at one time I may have talked like you as well. I became such an active member (and leader) not out of any burden of obligation, but out of the love I had in my heart. It had nothing to do with feeling it was “the right thing to do”. Of course I “felt” things spiritually. I wasn’t there just because I liked to get up early on Sundays. I was the one dancing in the aisles in joy and crying at the altar in repentance(literally). I was the one (supposedly) talking in tongues, giving words of knowledge to people and laying hands on the sick. It was very real, very emotional, and it was a very unique experience. So please don’t assume that because I know longer believe that Jesus was any type of savior that I didn’t have a genuine faith. It’s very insulting. My faith was very genuine, just misplaced.
As for your “feelings” that is one of the things Christians use in witnessing techniques. “Well, I’m Mr.Christian and have experienced this, that and the other joyful thing? Well you can’t take my experiences away from me. I know it’s real and you should know it’s real to. If you only experienced what I have. Here, let me show you how.” Been there, said that. Here’s the thing, just because you think you experienced it, doesn’t mean it real. And while I can’t take your experience away from you, you can’t claim mine aren’t real either.
No, when YOU believe you may empty your head of thoughts, but I can’t do such a thing. I take the verse “Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength” very literally. So while you elect to go purely on heart, I will opt for the whole verse and use my mind as well. God handled it by give me a brain to think and reason with, and I’ve done just that.
Damn I wish this was the pit. I’m wrong am I? Ok, JD, a relationship is a two way street. He seeks after me, but I must do the same. Do you even read your bible? Here, let me help: Deut. 4:29, Psalm 14:2, Psalm 69:32. I’ll even give you some from your Testament: Matthew 6:33, Hebrews 11:6.
I’m not insulted by your beliefs JD, and I didn’t say God was intolerant, arrogant or unfair and unjust. I said what YOU said is insulting, and comes off as intolerant and arrogant. As for God being fair and just, I never claimed otherwise. That is part of the reason I can’t believe in Christianity! You may believe people will burn in hell forever (among other things), I’ve got more faith in God than that.
I never said that I didn’t associate myself with God. However, I don’t believe Jesus was any kind of God incarnate. I don’t believe that there was a need for a “new” covenant with people. I don’t believe most of what Christianity claims as truth. But that does NOT mean I don’t believe or associate with God.
There is no need to return, I never left.
:::applauds Mayor Quimby’s last response:::
Jersey Diamond answered me:
I know what you’re saying by your first sentence, and don’t disagree – you’ve made a commitment to God, and nobody and nothing can change that. And I applaud it.
But that was not what I meant by saying that your and my mind and those of others can be changed. And I meant it as peacemaking, not as polemic.
You must be careful to distinguish between your commitment to God as known in Jesus and experienced through the Holy Spirit – which I neither meant nor would want to change – and the conclusions you may draw from the reading of Scripture and the preachings and teachings of your pastor and other leaders, which are subject to change as you grow in the faith and learn more of “the heighth and breadth and depth of Christ’s love for us” (Paul to the Ephesians, IIRC). They come from humans, well-meaning and perhaps right but fallible – and God will lead you into a fuller Truth as you’re willing to listen to Him. (That does not mean that I have a better handle than they do; it simply means not to buy as cast in stone what they or I or Satan (the poster! ;)) or anybody else has to say, but to pray for the mind of Christ to lead and guide you through the Spirit.
I find compassion easy to muster, and called for by our Lord. You find it easy to judge (or seemingly so), and I’d suggest that He is strong against that in the Gospels. But I cannot fault your commitment to Him.
And it was in that sense, not in the solid base of your faith, that I meant you could be changed. Don’t buy my posts because I say them – I can be wrong, like every other fallible human being. But listen to Him, and if pastor, your understanding of Scripture, or anything else seems to fall short of what He is telling you in your heart, discard it as less than the fullness of Christ’s love, no matter what it costs you.
Peace, Jersey. We’ve come to metaphorical blows on Scripture interpretation before on various threads, but I know your heart to be placed on His altar, and I care deeply about you and Joe as a sister and brother in Christ. Which is why I get so frustrated and hostile at your appearing to sell an exclusivist doctrine as His – His love is bigger than that!
But I could be wrong.
You must think that not all of the Bible is God’s Word. If it says that David (or Moses) said something, it’s probably just David’s (or Moses’) word and not necessarily God’s Word, right? (Just as this post is MY word and not God’s.)
That’s a nice way to rationalize away the inconsistencies and inaccuracies that litter the Bible from the first chapter to the last. “If a Bible verse is wrong, then it isn’t God’s word.”
Does that sum up deism as well?
I believe it is a collection of books and letters and songs written by various people, yes.
Correct. I like to think that is the sane approach. I mean, you could staple today’s Wall Street Journal to a copy of Beowulf too – that won’t make the Grendel issue an IPO.
I believe God exists, but I’m a morally weak person. Even see that movie, Bad Lieutenant? I might yet pull through.
Hijack after hijack. 
Oh, well. Who’d a thunk it would turn out like this?
Sorry to hear about your dog Mayor Quimby. 
[/quote]
Do you even read your bible?
[quote]
Why yes , I do. That’s why I get so angry when people who claim to read the Bible take verses and twist it so it fits his/her beliefs. It’s so much more convenient this way.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Funny thing, you come off as very arrogant and intolerant to me. This board always stresses how everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, so how can you get so mad when I voice mine? Believe me I don’t expect you to respect what I believe, cause I sure don’t respect Most of what I read. All we have to do is realize that we all have an opinion.
- Interesting *
** Polycarp **
I know you believe what you say to be true, as do I. I am very happy that you believe in the Lord, and I hope you never stop. We just have many different beliefs. Our views on what is Christian are very different. Your beliefs seem to go on what you think is moral or right, it could also be looked at as a worldly or human view. I tend to take what the Bible says directly from the Bible. I do try to use my own common sense, cause I know God wants us to do that too. A lot of what you say is what people want to hear, and that’s why so many, including some atheist, agree with what you say. I’m not saying “Polycarp, your wrong”, I’m just saying that we believe different things. I am happy you love Jesus. I do not judge, I just state what the Bible says, call it what you will.
An even better example than me is my wife, who was an on-fire-for-Christ, Bible-believing, born-again Christian for many years. I won’t take it upon myself to give her (in Mayor Quimby’s words) anti-testimony, but suffice to say that if anyone was ever genuinely filled with the Holy Spirit, as described by believers, it was her. She is, for the record, no longer a Christian, and probably not a theist. If you want details, I’ll ask her to post to the thread.
And I defy JerseyDiamond (hey, you never answered my question about whether people in your church stop praying publicly in tongues if there is no interpreter, as Paul instructs) to tell her she was not a real Christian. How insulting–to take it upon yourself to judge the sincerity of another’s faith! How utterly arrogant!
JerseyD, after accusing *Brother Manyfishes of being a humanist, of all things, sed:
JD, this has been confusing me for a looooong time. Maybe you can give me an answer.
How do you knwo?
I mean, you’re a literalist, yes? You believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word, and not subject to interpretation, right? But . . . How can you be so sure that the way you understand a particular verse, for example, is the correct one? Or that there’s only one?
And which Bible is correct? KJV 1611? Why? How do you know that is the most inspired and correct version? How do you know the others are wrong? What about the original languages, aren’t those more accurate?
Sorry, that’s a lot of questions, I guess. But it’s important to me to understand if I can. Jenkinsfan, Bill, y’all can jump in on this one as well.
faith in what? If you don't believe now, what kind of faith did you have to begin with? There are ** many** wolves in sheeps clothing. Just because someone claims to be fill with this spirit, doesn't mean it's true. The devil does his work in a similar way to try to fool others. To try to answer your question, this is what Someone told me: "there is 2 types of tongues, there is the Gift of tongues which is one of the gifts of the spirit and there is the heavenly tongue that we recieve when we are baptised in the Holy Ghost, it is the gift of tongues that I think Paul is talking about". I'm not to sure on this, but I will find out, just for you. I'm giving you this answer cause it seems that you need one now. I will talk more about it with my pastor and look more through the scriptures.
Your right, she may very well have been a Christian. My cousin was a Christian that was filled with the holy spirit. She backslide and prefers to take the easy way. She would tell you herself that she still believes in the Lord, but for some reason, she sins. The fact that she still knows there is a God and that Jesus dies for our sins makes me know that she was a Christian. I guess you can still say she is Christian cause she still believes in Christ, that doesn’t mean she’s doing the right thing/ living it. To go from one extreme to the next: *‘I was a minister for 30 years, but now I’m an atheist’ * doesn’t connect at all. >>>IMO<<< As for your challenges, they mean nothing to me. If your happy that your wife is not a Christian, I’m glad for ya.
don’t be mad it’ll be alright
I use quickverse on my computer, which includes KJV and NIV, which includes Hebrew and Greek. It’s great. My church also uses KJV. It’s the best you can get IMO and in my churches. I do believe there are things that are in the Bible that need to be interpreted for a lot of people such as: lamb, lampstand, and some other things I can’t think of now, and when it names a country that I can’t put with a country today. Everything else is pretty clear. My only problem is when someone takes something perfectly clear and makes it something totally different. If I have a question I ask my boyfriend who sometimes sees things differently but we generally believe the same thing, or ask what his grandfather believes who is a baptist minister which is somewhat different from my pentacostal, and my pastor who I trust greatly. I also look it up for myself and see what they are talking about, and they always show me what they mean. I tend to go to my boyfriend a lot. I plan on marrying him one day, and the Bible says that if a woman has a question she should go to her husband, so I might as well ask him now You might ask ‘what does a single girl do?’ well, she is suppose to go to her father, but being that my father is catholic, I don’t ask him cause we have different beliefs. Hope I answered some of what you asked!
**
JD, what is the falsification condition for your assertions? What would it take to prove to you that someone used to be a Christian just like you, and now is so no longer?
BTW, did you read my post about my own experiences in leaving Christianity?
-Ben
Jersey Diamond has been irritating many in this thread with her stubborn refusal to consider any alternate viewpoints. I think the thing to keep in mind when considering her POV is that she views life through a Reality Tunnel, as proposed by Cervaise in this thread when he was getting crazed by the same behavior in FoG. The thing to remember is that when you are a “Bible believing Christian” (a term they find much nicer than the sometimes perjorative ‘fundie’) you absolutely see the world in black and white. ANYTHING that isn’t “from God” is from…well… you know who. So opening your mind to alternate views is just simply not a possibility. This is the reality tunnel through which everything is perceived.
My problem with this reality tunnel is that I have seen first hand that it IS possible to change your mind, after having a VERY sincere lifelong belief in Christianity. For JD, or anyone else who is a ‘true believer’, the most disturbing thing they can conceive is of someone who really did believe then honestly fell away. Why? Because if they admit that it is possible to fall away after having truly believed, then that opens up the horrifying possibility that said falling away could happen to them. And this cannot be tolerated. Why do I know this? Because I have been there and done that. Allow me to elaborate…to quote Phillipans 3:3-6-
Allow me to now offer my “reinterpretation” of those verses, as seen through my own life.
[quote]
Mars Horizon 3:3-6
So, I do not take JD to task for her firm convicitons. I simply wish her well. And realize that at this point in her life, no one will change her mind.
JerseyDiamond:
What if you’re not filled with the Spirit? What if you’ve been taken in by wolves in sheeps’ clothing? You cannot possibly know (unless you can see the future) that you will not someday lose your faith.
You may believe that to be impossible. I assure you, I also thought it would be impossible for me to ever, ever lose my faith.
There are plenty of people here (including me) who were absolutely convinced our faith was real and strong; we felt suffused with the Spirit and were transported with religious joy. We also walked the walk and talked the talk. You cannot possibly know that our faith was false while yours is real unless, according to your definition, you cling to your faith through your last dying breath.
Since you’ve not yet had a chance to see if your faith will persevere through your death, you’re in no place to judge the reality of anyone else’s faith.
**JerseyDiamond wrote:
No, he doesn’t. The only proof I see of you is that you tried Christianity, and as it seems from what you posted, it was to complex or difficult for you. If you’re not now, you never were.**
Yes, you’re right JD, it was too hard for me. It’s too hard for me to check my brain at the church door and simply mouth phrases and sing songs rather than understand them. It’s too hard for me to not question a set of rules for proper living that make no sense in the modern world. It’s too hard for me to accept a philosophical system that has large holes in it, yet when I question it, I’m told; “You don’t believe enough!”
Frankenstein was a fictional character in a book, I think we can both can agree on that. Even if he was real, he would have been human. God is God, you can’t compare apples to clouds. Sorry if that sounds dumb, but you cannot say oranges, cause that would put them in a similar category, and that’s absurd. Again, read Job and tell me what you think.
After reading this, I’m now convinced your mother didn’t take nearly enough folic acid during the first trimester she was carrying you. Yes, the story of Frankenstein was a work of fiction. But the moral behind the story is still clear, that a Creator DOES OWE something to his Creation. Just because a story or parable is a work of fiction doesn’t mean the underlying message can’t be true. Yes, I have read Job, several times. It only emphasizes that God expects blind obedience out of His followers. Luckily, there are other options.
*Freyr wrote:
Again, no. One of the greatest joys of my life was getting out of the Judeo-Christian value system of “black/white” &
“yes/no” & “our way or NO way.” There’s a wonderful world of color beyond the black and white system of Fundamentalist
Christianity. I hope someday you might see it.*
**JerseyDiamond responded:
Of course, the easier way always seems better.**
So typical of Christians, especially the Fundamentalist types. They casually dismiss what they can’t or won’t understand. That’s right JerseyDiamond, you stay nice and safe and warm in that little cocoon you’ve built yourself. Take no responsibility for yourself or your actions, let Jesus do it all for you. After all, he’s God and he knows what’s best for you and you can’t question God! :rolleyes:
We should not question our creator, after all he is God. What your doing is practicing the free-will that God gave you. I’m sorry you feel that way. freyr I don’t want to come off as sounding mean, but it makes me crazy that people talk about Christianity as if it were some ice cream they tried,and ‘it just wasn’t for them’. If you were a christian, you will always be.
You keep on parroting this phrase; *We should not question our creator, after all he is God * as if you don’t really believe it, but if you repeat it often enough, it’ll be true. How very interesting. And since when did you become the authority of who has and hasn’t become a Christian? Did you consult with the Archbishop of Canterbury? The Pope in Rome? The Patriarches of Moscow, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Istanbul? Did they bestow this honor upon you?
JD, I looked into the details of many religions, spendt time talking with their followers, reading the histories and backgrounds for them. When I accepted Wicca, I knew what I was getting into. Can you say the same? Or did you simply accept Christianity because it what’s been spoon-fed to you since you were born?
JerseyDiamond wrote:
Well, then, she’s obviously a Christian. She knows that Jesus will forgive every one of her sins and still let her into Heaven. :rolleyes:
Tracer, you’re missing the whole point of the relationship aspect of what it means to be a Christian.
The only reasonable conclusion from how God operates vis-a-vis humanity is that our mortal lives are supposed to be learning experiences, from which we grow. What His purpose is in doing things this way, I have not a clue. But I’m confident there is one.
Okay, so you are my friend. Which means, if you say something I consider completely dorky, I may call you to task on how absurd your apparent meaning is. But I don’t condemn you for it; I try to get to the bottom of what made you say it, correct your misunderstandings if any, correct my own if I misunderstood you, and in general clarify what the heck you really did mean with that stupid statement. But I don’t send you to Coventry for saying something dumb.
It’s a lousy teacher who flunks 95% of his students, knowing this is their only chance at passing the course.
God doesn’t work like that. That whole “forgiveness” thing is postulated on repentance – turning from self-destructive behavior (=sin) to a fulfilling relationship with Him. And once you’ve done that, He counts you as His friend, and takes you through the same process I outlined for myself above – with the exception that He doesn’t misunderstand your meaning. But He may correct your misunderstanding of His will, and help you to see why you were wrong.
It’s not a “Get out of Hell free” card. It’s a library pass.
Jersey,
The Lord promises you that you shall be judged by the measure with which you judge others. For the benefit of your own soul, lighten up.
Everyone else,
No one who posts to this board knows the state of anyone else’s soul. Claiming that they do is a usurpation of the right of the Lord. In formal theological terms this is referred to as bullshit. The more harsh pronouncements made with favorable comparisons to self are called self-righteous bullshit.
Don’t follow Christians, they are just more souls wandering in the world. I commend to you the Word of God, taken into your heart.
Amen. Thanks, Tris.