Hear, hear.
When we were kids, we had a neighbor whose dog was named “Here Boy.” Our dachshund had a crush on him.
Ma’am just isn’t the equivalent to “sir” for so many societal reasons (it’s used at similar moments, but has different gendered connotations).
I would think a manager was being belittling and condescending if they called me “ma’am” in such a context. I hear what you’re saying, about your intent, and that’s great and once explained I’d probably grow to be ok with it or even appreciate it, but I would not take it well the first time.
I’d like people to just use their words to tell me I’m appreciated and doing a good job. I won’t pick up on that if you use Sir/ma’am/Mrs/Ms/Mx.
Absolutely a me problem, you’d probably not notice it bothered me, or I might come across as a little cold in response (I’d probably still just say “thank you”).
I’m finding this thread fascinating because I probably need to reframe this stuff in my mind a little (interpretation vs intent); it’s good to “recalibrate” what people may intend!
Exactly. You don’t like how it is, don’t go there. Easy peasey.
What? Are you funnin’?
That doesn’t seem a good way to do others.
I get it, it makes you happy. How are people supposed to know? What kinda pin are you wearing?
Describe it so I’ll know to watch for it. And know to leave that person alone.
Also, and I do not mean to condescend or say your experience wasn’t relevant in your life. I promise I don’t.
You are a tad sensitive about this.
I haven’t a middle name either. I have two front names. Very long, hyphenated. One first name on my birth certificate. 17 characters counting the hyphen. And a 12 character surname(maiden, married name is not much better). Fits on no form. None.
You know that quaint southern tradition? Like Mary-jane or Emmy-lou?
Well mine is much much worse.
Also turned into two nicknames, hyphenated said all as one name. Horrible.
We all have our crosses to bear.
It was always “sir”, regardless of gender. And not something I did with frequency. “Ma’am” has too much risk of offending or making someone uncomfortable. I can call a woman “sir” (F2F) in a way that she will recognize it as being respectful – everybody already gets that I am pretty strange.
Sir, for a woman? I think not. (Military, maybe)
I can understand Ma’am, to a degree. It’s not seen as a bad thing where I live. But, logically, I see why others don’t cotton to it.
I’ll grant that I don’t know you and it certainly depends on context. You’re not doing anything wrong, really, unless you persist after someone asks you to stop, which I don’t imagine you do.
As I’ve said, I won’t get mad, I’ll keep it to myself until/unless we get to a level of friendship where I may choose to express it, but it’s simply not my preference in a general sense.
I find my gender carries so much weight, it gets in the way. I work in a male dominated industry, which adds to the frustration. As I said, this is a “me” problem!
If I’m butting in, just tell me to shut up. I will.
But why exactly is ma’am so terrible? If you present as female.
If you don’t, then that’s another conversation and you should be called the gender you present as or say you are.
I truly don’t understand.
I associate “ma’am” with John Wayne. He used it in the manner of a misogynistic asshole. It always seemed to me to have a demeaning quality to it. For that reason, I never use it because that guy made it feel icky.
This is something that Japanese makes it much easier. They use さん san or 様 sama after a person’s last name, regardless of gender, for anyone older than high school, unless there is an established relationship.
I usually go by my first name in Japanese because I don’t particularly like my last name.
John Wayne was a jerk. Different time he lived and acted in.
When a little child answers you “Yes ma’am” it’s sweet. Seems perfectly normal to me. I lived in the south a long time and it’s the proper way to teach children to respect their elders, down here.
I don’t expect the rest of the world to follow suit.
I would never have allowed my children to call another adult their first name only. Unless the adult asked them to.
An unfamiliar adult would never be referred to as a first name, by another adult, til ask to.
I do think it’s incredibly silly for grown people to call other adults Mr. or Ms. First name. Use the last name until asked to do otherwise.
We can’t go around saying, Hey, you…hey bro’…hey person over there.
We have names. It separates us from the Apes.
I used to work at Safeway as a second job. This was over 20 years ago and they made us do this calling of the name. It really kind of backfired. I am surprised that they were still doing it as late as 10 years ago. Their spiel - and Safeway always knew the perfect thing - was that customers coming to the grocery store loved to hear themselves called by their first and last name. Really? You mean they don’t want you to open up additional checkouts to get them thru the line faster? lol.
This task was particularly bad for employees at one of our international stores. The names went on and on and on…The employees were embarassed and full of anxiety and the customers hated it and told us to please skip it.
They had many of these policies over the years I used to work there. One time they made us used a code on the checks of every person who used one. We had to use letters to describe their race and gender. Yes this was a policy! We hated it but got it thrown out by answering customers who asked us just what we were doing.
Then they had the policy of taking each customer directly to the item whenever they asked where something was. It didn’t matter how big or small or if you were on or off the clock. You had to drop what you were doing - I worked the floor sometimes with a powerjack. I had to move it to a safer spot and remove the battery in order to keep anyone from playing with it when I wasn’t there.
To insure that we did all of this they hired “spy” shoppers to gleefully get employees written up if they didn’t follow the policy to the letter.
The day I got a better 1st job and quit there was a day of celebration.
I remember when we got a couple of those. Seems to me they included a key – never really noticed, because we were not in public, so there would be no reason to take the key out. Also, I hated those things. They seemed hazardous to use, and, really, pulling a three-quarter ton pallet around manually is good exercise and almost always more efficient than using the powered jacks.
To me, “Ma’am” is how you politely address a woman whose name you do not know. (“Ma’am, you dropped your keys.”) If people are offended by that, I can’t imagine why. Maybe they prefer “Hey,” which seems rude to me?
I know strangers never mean to offend me by their weird preference for my first name, and I try to grin and bear it. They should do me the same courtesy when I call them “Sir” or “Ma’am.” (Only problem being that it requires you to guess someone’s gender, which I’d rather not.)
Oh I’m definitely female and present as such, have done my whole life. I’m not trans or nb. I don’t, however, want that to matter in my everyday interactions, though of course we live in a society where it does, unfortunately. There’s no reason to draw attention to my gender in the vast majority of interactions.
I fully understand that you prefer to use and be addressed as ma’am and consider it to be polite. I simply don’t. It’s only ever used in condescending, degrading, belittling, sexist contexts where I’m from, so of course I’ll react to that. It also has an element of ageism to it as it’s used for older people, not to mention the assumptions on marital status (and all the bias that brings) that go with it and Mrs. versus Miss.
If I have to write somewhat formally to someone female I’ll use Ms every time as well (and have somewhat jokingly contemplated using Mx for literally everyone; I’m writing for business or professional reasons and don’t give a rats ass about your gender, just as mine is unimportant in that moment).
I do follow convention in professional settings, I’m not trying to be rude. I’ll call someone Mr Lastname until they tell me otherwise, but in my line of work and social circles, everyone immediately introduces themselves by first name anyways.
“Excuse me, you dropped your keys” works just as well and eliminates any gendered language.
“Hi, everyone” works just as well as “hi guys” does.
“Yes” works as well as “yes, sir”. “Would you like any help with that” is just as polite as it would be with gendered terms, and you don’t have to say things like “hey you!”
It’s not actually difficult to eliminate these terms from every day language. I completely understand that this is a cultural question and most people don’t want to eliminate them. I’m not going to try to convince the world to change to suit my preferences. But it is still my preference and therefore it’s how I choose to present myself and interact with people.
I anyone addressed me with Mr. {surname} I would look over my shoulder to see if my Grandfather was standing there (despite him being dead for 40 years)
The only pretence I have with formality is when my Grandson asked if he could call me by my first name. After a few moments science I replied with, " Mate, I really prefer Grandad". End of discussion, Grandad it is.
As a Canadian, I would say “Sorry, you dropped your keys”. Never pass up an opportunity to apologize!