Abstinence iin relationships between 30-40+ year old adults

In a perfect world everyone would have these discussions, but this isn’t a perfect world. I have a really hard time believing that high percentages of people who desire to be celibate at this age are busy discussing sex fantasies with each other. I doubt either of us have a cite, but people who don’t like sex would certainly make up a larger percentage of the celibate population than the non-celibate - so the odds might be against you.

I hope you can accept that those desiring to be celibate are not “high quality” partners for many people, and just not out of evil lust. At the ages we’re discussing, this attitude seems either a “better to marry than to burn one” or else one in which sex is elevated to almost a fetishistic level. Imagine a bunch of people who decide that they’ll never have dinner alone together until marriage, but only in restaurants or in the presence of others. Some unmarried couples would discuss at length what their menus would be. It’s really not all that different, except because of our odd culture.

I saw that in the original post and found it very odd.

Aren’t catholics (and most religions) against divorce? (Correct me if I’m wrong). So can one be religious enough to not have sex but accept divorce?

I wouldn’t be surprised if many of these people found religion after marriage.

Seems a rather arbitrary line to me. If you can marry someone and divorce them, then the only difference between marriage and “dating” seems to be the cost of the marriage license.

Do they? I suppose I must believe you, not having experienced such a thing myself. But knowing how I and all my friends generally interact with their mates, I find it highly unlikely that discussions of sexual frequency, positions, and fantasies would come up in non-sexual situations. Maybe we’re all conservative in that way (although not so conservative as to abstain), but such discussions around the dinner table, etc., would seem very blunt and awkward and unnatural. The place those things come up, from my experience, are before, during, and after sex.

I’ve seen the opposite happen. Couples that abstain until marriage can have happy, healthy, normal sex lives. So what does that prove?

As I said in my previous post, I think someone who spends so much thought and time “analyzing” why a bunch of people that they don’t even know decide to not have sex with a bunch of other people, well, such a person has their own set of “issues.” And to act like they just know that many of these couples are closeted homosexuals, or “frigid hostile women,” without ever meeting them? Boggles the mind.

I am reminded of my friend, who seemed to take the concept of someone else’s absitence so personally. As if the other young woman had done something offensive to her (my friend) by choosing to not have sex until marriage. But it wasn’t my friend’s business, so why did she care so much? That didn’t make much sense.

This is an unusual choice of words. Nobody has to have an “excuse” to not have sex. They can decide for any damned reason that they don’t want to.

No joke. Actually, around here, there is a sizeable minority of devout people that don’t belive in any sort of physical inimacy beyond hugging(!) before marriage lest they tempt themselves beyond their ability to abstain. And I must admit, the idea of sex talk and then…nothing (not even making out, fondling, etc.) seems counter-intuitive to me.

And I have to second msmith537’s post from earlier as well as Diogenes. Deciding to wait a while for the sake of finding out if the person you’re with is a good person is one thing (and i encourage this!)…but using sex as some sort of ‘husband bait’ strikes me as not emotionally healthy.

You either like sex or you don’t. If you don’t, it’s not a big deal, so long as you find someone else that doesn’t either. But my issue is with people that act as though marriage will somehow fundamentally change their views on sex in general.

The other night I was talking with my friend. (Essential info: I ‘waited,’ she did not.) She was surprised–as I see most non-abstinence people here are–that DangerDad and I did indeed discuss sexual issues in depth before we got married, as if we didn’t know what was supposed to happen. Folks, the fact is that any halfway intelligent couple can figure out whether they’re compatible before they ever hop into bed. The rest is love and willingness to learn (and how much fun we can have in that learning!). We discussed what we wanted, right along with kids and finances and family issues, and have gone on doing so, through the past 9 years of engagement and marriage. It’s what you do before you get married, if you’re at all prepared.

When I was single, and most of my friends were, we could and did discuss sex openly–but only in a group where we knew that everyone had the same attitude about waiting. In a mixed group, it invariably consisted of the non-abstinent telling the abstinent how stupid waiting was, which was not productive from our point of view. We had our ideas and meant to stick with them. So we sat around in mixed-gender groups, discussing sex, every once in a while (not around the dinner table–just afterwards). My guy buddy and I spent a whole evening in a car talking about what we wanted (actually, I can recall at least 3 such occasions, with different guy friends, not to mention the ones with girls).

Before our various weddings, a pile of books was passed around, though we each bought our own copies of The joy of sex. My roommate’s mother gave her tips on how to prepare in order to have a comfortable wedding night, and K-Y jelly, along with those tips, was a popular wedding present among friends. (My own personal mission became informing everyone about UTI’s.)

So, how was our way of doing things less healthy than yours? We did it the way we wanted and enjoyed it very much. I found that it was a great way to start off my own sex life, so what’s with the accusations of fear and stupidity?

Also, I have a single friend of 37, who is as healthy and fun and uninhibited as anyone, but (through the inexplicable dumbness of guys) has not met someone to start a family with. Should she lower her standards and enter an unhappy relationship that isn’t what she really wants, just so she can get laid, when that isn’t what she has decided she wants out of life? She’s an intelligent adult with her own life, and I think I’ll let her make her own decisions about that.

I agree with Knorf. I’m 36, female and going through a divorce. I’ve only had 3 partners in my life and I waited until I was 24 to lose my virginity. Why? Because I’d been raised to believe that “everything but” intercourse was acceptable and to abide by my deeply held religious convictions until I was married.

Was that a good idea? For me, no. I didn’t completely wait, but almost. And let me tell you, it was like a starving person at an all-you-can-eat buffet. My partner willingly went along with this, but later I found out that we weren’t the least bit sexually compatible AT ALL. If he had sex once a week, he’d be thrilled. If I get it twice a day, it might not be enough. Think of the scene from Annie Hall, but in reverse. I never got plenty of kisses, which I prefer not to do without, he, on the other hand, hates it but tolerated it early on because of love and the fact that we seemed to be perfectly in tune with everything else and what we wanted from it. The skills improved with effort and care, but our bedroom differences and my previous fundamentalist hang-ups caused way too many difficulties. This all was indicative of other problems in the relationship and we both should have taken heed to why. Since we discussed everything prior, we assumed we could work it out with patience, understanding and time. That was an incorrect assessment. Love, IME, doesn’t conquer all, even the unconditional stay-together-forever kind.

IMHO, it’s more about the necessity of intimacy and interaction than actual sex. I would never abstain now, if I was serious about that person and they reciprocated (after an appropriate interlude – a couple of months, just to make sure neither of us were acting out of desperation or hormones and to see how everything else lined up first), because I feel it will be integral to our future (if there is one) together. Furthermore, I concur that folks like me would NOT be good for folks like that, and vice-versa. Also, there truly may be serious baggage included (for example, although I nearly made it to the finish line, I had long since stopped doing so due to devoutness – by then, it was simply by rote), I know there was for me. Lots of cliches applied to what I apparently was afraid of, but refused to acknowledge. And I felt that all did much more harm than good, for me anyway, towards not developing a healthy attitude regarding my sexuality and what it means to me.

Lastly, I’m on the fence about ‘performance’ once you’ve been bound in holy matrimony… I’ve seen it happen both ways. Sometimes, you do have those that go whole hog to hook whatever person they’ve set their sights on, then once legally bound, only put forth what is absolutely necessary. On the other hand, some that keep everything intact until the honeymoon, have ended up being insatiable and an utter wildcat in bed. Plenty of others, I’m sure, change over time to one or the other, depending on the circumstances. I know that in my first situation, it killed any drive I had at all. The subsequent other two though, had me panting with desire for the next go 'round. So, I suppose I can respect the reasons behind such attitudes if they are truly legitimate (unlike mine, that was eventually ‘just because’ and for no real reason – earlier on, I think I occasionally used God as a crutch out of fear from my mother, going to hell, getting dumped/pregnant whatever) and shared by the SO. But for me, there would be no way in hell that I’d ever see anyone again who refused to even consider it. A definite deal breaker in my book.

YMMV, of course.

I’m not sure about most couples, but I do agree that some couples do this. My problem with this is, that I find people tend to be either dishonest or are plain mistaken. There’s sometimes not a chance to discover, “I like to have sex almost every morning,” means the person likes to have sex for 5 - 15 minutes before work in a repetitive, clinical fashion. “I like to go for hours, but can be just as happy with a smaller amount of time as long as the emotional connection is there,” doesn’t tell you a person may have a hang-up about oral sex, feels uncomfortable being entirely unclothed, can only become aroused listening to Wayne Newton 8-tracks, is turned off by bodily noises/fluids, etc.

I think there’s too many factors involved, even with a completely honest partner who either leaves something out (not through intentional omission), or simple unfamiliarity with their own desires or yours. Things one or the other of you may take for granted. I’m not saying abstinence is horrible, or that a discussion is not worthwhile. What I am saying, is that you can’t really know through words alone. I agree that lot’s of skills can be improved upon, but is the willingness there, and how would you know unless you tried it and it turned out to be a problem?

I don’t think sexual compatibility can be evaluated by talking. A couple that feels the need to negotiate the terms and times for nookie before they have it is showing a lot of fear and emotional immaturity, IMO, and they are not likely to actually learn anything. People will say all kinds of crap that they don’t really mean or won’t follow through on. Are people really going to be up front about everything? If they have a weird fetish are they going to admit it to some religious whack that they’re trying to marry? And how do you know what kind of skills the other person is going to have? What if they just lay there in the sack? What if he’s a premature ejaculator? What if he gives lousy head? What if she does?

These are questions which can only be answered by direct experience

I say if you’re over thirty then you should grow the hell up and have an adult relationship. Take it past the grade school level. Sex is not evil. You’re not going to go to hell if you have sex before marriage. Gratutitous abstinence is unnatural and unhealthy. I’m not saying anyone should be promiscuous or that they should have sex with people they are not emotionally bonded with, but if you love the person and you’re a grown up then abstaining from sex just hinders the development of the relationship for no good reason.

I also can’t see any wisdom at all in marrying a person you haven’t had sex with. It’s like buying a car without driving it or buying a house without going inside.

Having been in this situation in the past, I went by the following:

If a woman 30+ insisted on no sex until marriage for whatever reason and I liked her…I would accept it if it appeared that she wanted to have sex but wouldn’t for her reason. If she was sexual, liked to kiss and acted like it was an effort to stand be her beliefs then I was ok with it.

If it appeared that maintaining abstinence was not much of a challenge/effort…than cya!

Interesting topic and pretty evenly divided. Very rarely do I come across a topic that is so alien to me. I am also surprised by the number of people supporting abstinence.

For disclosure, I am 32, married almost 6 years, dated and lived together two years before getting married. Not religious, but not adverse to it either.

I always thought that the point of dating was to find a right mate for you. A MATE, and all that entails. Sexual compatibility is an integral part of a good relationship. Not huge part, but an equal to emotional and mental compatibility. Can you gauge someone sexual compatibility by not sleeping with them? I don’t see how that’s possible. You might as well try to tell me that you can choose not to interact with someone and gauge their mental + emotional compatibility.

The problem comes up with what we say we do, what we actually do, how we see ourselves and how others see us. During the dating stage most people are not entirely honest about themselves. Sometimes through outright deception, but most time because of this skewed self-image. You don’t take someone personal ad at face value, why would you take their said sexual likes and dislikes at face value. Everybody thinks they’re good in bed, everybody thinks they’re sexually adventurous, just like all the personal ads advertise a fun, thoughtful, caring person looking for a serious relationship.

We who don’t subscribe to abstinence, find that their can be a lot of sexual incompatibilities. A lot of sex can mean three times a week, which to another person means hardly ever. Some people don’t like to go down on their partners. Some people are just plain selfish and only care about only their orgasm. Some people think adventurous sex is missionary AND doggy in one session.

My question for the abstinence people is; What do you do if their is a big sexual problem. Just tough it out like a martyr till death do you part? Get a divorce and start the cycle over?

I simply can’t imagine marrying someone without ever having had sex with them. This isn’t because I’m a sex fiend. Marriage, to me, is a celebration of the relationship you already have, not the start of your “real” relationship, so abstinence seems like an artificial restriction on the relationship.

This is not to say that there’s anything wrong with people who choose to abstain. Heck, there’s nothing wrong with arranged marriages, either, if that’s your bag. But both are so fundamentally incompatible with my own personal view of marriage that it’s hard to hide my opinion of how weird they both seem to me.

I had no small amount of sex with my husband before we got married, and yet found myself running into a pretty big sexual problem about 2 years into our marriage. Took me about 6 months of self-examination to figure out what was going on, and at least another year of working with my husband to get to where I needed to be for us to both be having good sex. Right now we’re having an unrelated frequency issue.

My point is, having sex before marriage does not guarantee that you will stay compatible. Or even that you’re seeing the same things that you’ll see when you’re married. If either I hadn’t been able to get to the bottom of the problem I was having with our sex life, or my husband hadn’t been willing to work with me to fix the problem it would most certainly have been a deal breaker in the long run, for both of us. If we could work through and get to where we are (which is pretty good!) then there’s no reason why someone previously celibate couldn’t work through sexual problems. I’d say everything depends on the couple.

I’ve met several couples who wished they had remained celibate before marriage. I have yet to meet a single couple that did abstain, and that wish they hadn’t. That’s not to say that no such people exist; however, I’ve found that the majority couples that do abstain are thankful that they did.

Well, I would imagine they do what they can to work it out, just like couples who find that ten years of life (aging, hormonal changes, stress levels, kids, etc.) has made them no longer all that compatible. Actually, I’d give the celibate couple better odds of working things out, because they’ve had more experience communicating about the subject outside the bedroom. (Talk about alien concepts–I can’t imagine having a serious relationship with, much less marrying, someone with whom I couldn’t have non-erotic discussions about sex. Really, if you can’t talk about it, how can you possibly expect to resolve problems that crop up?)

I think my head just exploded. I agree with Diogenes the Cynic. Good post, my friend.

My feeling is, sexual abstinence IS a sexual problem, in and of itself, for adults. It’s unnatural not to have sex for long periods of time. It fucks you up mentally and emotionally. (This is not to say a bad sexual relationship won’t fuck you up as well, but most of them are at least OK.)

Sex is the solution to the problem, inside or outside of marriage.

Can we have a medical or psychiatric cite for that, please? Y’know… something more scientific than just “But I want to have sex! I’m longing for it! It’s been so long…”

You claim that it (ahem) “fucks you up,” which implies some sort of actual damage. I’d really like to see some hardcore evidence for that, since you imply that lasting mental and emotional damage does ensue.

:confused: You can have non-erotic discussions about sex even if you are not abstaining, you know. In fact you can have them about what is really happening, not just what you think or hope will happen. It is perfectly possible for issues to pop up not covered by these discussions of hypotheticals.

So, any sex before marriage is just hopping into bed, huh? And none of your friends had any surprises, Joy of Sex covered everything.

Right.

And no one had any trouble the first time, it was just glorious, despite the obvious anxiety that getting married causes all, and a long day with an emotional high.

Right again.

And any relationship your friend is in involving sex will be by definition unhappy, and motivated only by lust, because only sluts have sex before marriage.

You remind me of the Richard Thompson song

I’ve never been to heaven
But at least I’ve read about love.

I haven’t heard one rational reason (excluding religion) for your position. Our brave poster FaithFool has already given a counterexample to your intelligent people can just talk about it fantasy.

I’ve been married three times longer than you, and I can tell you I’m really glad we weren’t abstinent. It cemented our bond, removed all doubts, and we had a much better time at our wedding - before, during and after going to the hotel.

This is not to say that two people who are hung up about this for any reason should violate their beliefs - it will probably hurt more than help. But I still don’t see any reason to be hung up about it.