my sister has a six month old son and is currently having problems with her husband on raising him.“same person i asked about color about color blindness” anyway he yells at his son all the time. he says he is teaching his son early on that he means bussinness when he raises his voice. my sister gets angry when he does yell because he is so small still. he also doesnt believe in shaken baby syndrome and is constantly tossing the baby around (while playing not purposly being mean) she is ready to leave. Any ideas on weather his yelling will affect his son in the long run?
He doesn’t BELIEVE in shaken baby syndrome??? Okay, this guy needs to be educated on the ways in which infants/children are very different from adults. Their muscles are not as developed—if some one pushes/shakes an adult, they can compensate with muscle resistance while babies cannot.
Also, at six months a baby has not yet learned to differentiate between himself and other people, let alone understand the concept of discipline.
While I don’t know if this crosses the abuse line, I feel deeply sorry for this kid. Even if the father won’t consent to attend a parenting class, check out a basic book on baby care, show him the X-rays of a baby’s soft spot and how much cartilage (as opposed to solidly formed bone) a baby actually has in its body.
It’s doubtful that he’ll stop yelling once the kid gets out of infancy–a couple years down the line, he’ll wonder why the kid is afraid and resentful of his father. What an asshole.
I tend to agree with booklover.
I’d also be concerned with what the physical effect of shouting at the baby has: hearing etc.
Whilst it’s hard to make an unbiased opinion from what you’ve posted, I’d seriously be concerned not only for the health and welfare of the baby, but also for your sister too. If things have reached the stage where she feels like leaving, then she has to do what’s best for her child, and for herself. Hindsight is something that can never be afforded in these sorts of situations.
Make sure that your sister has a good support network: that she knows who, and where, she can turn to for help, should she ever need it.
I had a dad that was abusive in a verbal way. He was never able to (or didn;t care to) see anything from another’s point of view. In fact, I was at my Counsellor’s office this morning going over yet another problem he has caused.
Were I this child, and could I talk, I would say to mom, "please, mom, don’t scar me, scare me and warp me by letting this man govern my formative years.
I have a 3 month old. Let me tell you, if anyone treated my baby as you have described, they would be in the hospital in about 10 secods. I am not kidding.
So TiffTZell… are you a professional troller, or is this your first attempt?
Let’s look at your OP: “He tosses the baby around” and “He doesn’t believe in ‘shaken baby syndrome’ (henceforth ‘SBS’).” You never declare that he’s actually shaking the baby (a necessary component of SBS), and “tossing the baby around” is far too vague to draw any solid conclusion. Predictably, someone already bit your bait (that would be booklover) and declared him an “asshole”.
“Shaken baby syndrome” (SBS) and mishandling a baby are two drastically different things (do you even know the difference?). Please be very precise when accusing people of heinous acts.
His handling of the baby is beyond your comfort level? OK, that is a perfectly valid opinion. You are entitled to your opinion of “That’s not the way I think you should handle a baby.” But… where, exactly, is the abuse in his handling? You state he’s “tossing the baby around”, but not “he’s shaking the baby”. You wanted us to assume that on our own, and condemn your brother in law, huh (as booklover naively did)? You’ve got it in for this guy, don’t you? If not, why are you making false accusations against him?
Is he actually committing/creating SBS? If so you are truly a most horrid sister and aunt for posting here instead of calling the cops immediately. One more clue that he’s not really abusing (and your OP was a farce), if he was abusing the baby by shaking it violently you would know it (your sister would have told you “he shakes the baby”), and without having to post here.
Your OP offers no evidence he is abusing the child, but simply handling it in a manner you are not comfortable with. That’s not SBS, and you should learn the difference.
That being said, yes, of course it is possible to injure a child unintentionally. One of my best friends had his arm broken (as a child) when his Dad pushed him OUT of the swing, after repeated encouragements of “Higher Daddy, higher!!!” Did Dad mean to? No. Did Dad, even if simply negligently, cause Paul’s broken arm? Most certainly he did. Did he abuse Paul? Never, broken arm and all.
Is the father in the OP in danger of unintentionally harming his child? Sounds like he is. Sounds like he needs some guidance and direction. Sounds like he needs to be educated on the resiliency of a baby. Sounds like he needs to learn the proper way to handle and play with a baby.
It does NOT sound like he’s abusing his child.
First of all, it’s “whether”, and no… his parentage will have no affect whatsoever on his lifelong outcome <chuckling, thinking of TiffTZell sputtering and fuming over my offhand sarcasm>.
Yes, of course the way we are raised will affect us in the long run. How exactly does it affect us? I suspect there are more theories than facts on that question. Will the way the baby’s father speaks to it affect it in the long run? Yes, of course it will. But how, exactly? Parenting has so many variables, it’s practically impossible to isolate one vaguely defined stimulus (“yelling”) and record it’s long-term effect.
And Mr.Zambezi, you offer to hospitalize anyone who mishandles a baby? Get your gloves on, dude, because most of the world doesn’t handle babies in the exact same way you do, and they’re no more or less wrong than you are in the way you handle yours.
Moral of the story: there’s a difference between “abuse” and a disagreement on proper parenting strategies. Learn the difference (all of you).
So, Jimbrowski, are you a professional jerk, or did someone pee in your coffee this morning?
Sounds like the OP may have some legitimate concerns here. Granted, they may not have been expressed very well (learn to use the Shift key, Tiff), but I’d hardly call it trolling. Or deserving of the hostility you showed. Where do you get off assuming that TiffTZell is making unfounded accusations?
Anyway, to the OP, IMHO, yelling at an infant is not acceptable, and won’t accomplish anything useful anyway. It sounds like this guy needs a talking to.
Jimbro said
Um, Jimbro, I was talking about the yelling. I had a dad that was a short tempered yeller. I know what it is like first hand. Anyone who gets mad at a 6 month old is either collosally stupid, a sociopath, or both.
As I said, were I given the choice of no dad or a hollering irrational angry asshole dad, I would take the “no dad”.
As I said, If someone was screaming at my 6 month old because they weren’t following directions, I would beat the shit out of them. Kids this young don’t understand. Anyone who gets mad at them for not understanding is dangerous.
BTW, how many kids do you have?
I agree with you, Mr. Z. Anyone who treats an infant that way, or any child for that matter, deserves a serious ass-whupping.
Jim, jump back and get a grip.
Tiff, a 6 month old cannot form the necessary cognitive link to understand that daddy’s yelling is “discipline” yet. All he’s doing is ensuring that the baby is frightened of him, and maybe of other adults as well. You may see some very real developmental problems as a result.
Scary. And as a parent, I understand very well the differences between play and purposeful shaking, and I also understand the similarities. If someone doesn’t believe that rough play involving sudden, sharp or strong head and neck movements is dangerous for infants, he needs help right now, and so does that child.
Judging from previous posts in this and other forums, Tiff doesn’t appear to be a troll. Unfortunately, I don’t know Jimbrowski so I can’t give him the benefit of the doubt yet.
Something else that struck me as I read the other contributions to this thread was that the baby’s mother might not be in the vicinty of their child 24/7.
If the father was either mishandling the child because of ignorance of how to look after and hold a baby, or whether he was actually shaking it, or even for example, “throwing” it up in the air in play, the mother isn’t necessarily going to know about it. The child could be at risk and serious injury may not be visibly apparent immediately.
As I said previously, hindsight in such cases is not a good thing.
No, if I were a professional I would charge you for my services.
Why does standing up for the father make me a jerk? You sound like you’re taking the side of the OP (Original Poster), I’m taking the side of the father. I don’t think you’re a jerk for biting on some whiner muckraking about her brother-in-law, why do you think I’m a jerk because I didn’t?
Where do you get off assuming TiffTZell is making founded accusations?
The OP contained extremely vague yet inflammatory accusations of “tossing” and “yelling”, both of which are open to a wide range of interpretations (including, but not limited to, child abuse). “That no-good asshole! I told you not to get knocked up by that slimebag! He doesn’t even hold the baby’s head when he carries him! Why, he’s just tossing that baby around!!!” When I read the OP, that’s the message I got (i.e. that it was posted by someone who doesn’t like her bro-in-law). That’s not the message you got? No prob, we’re each welcome to our own opinions.
“Yelling”… easy enough. One’s persons “yelling” is another’s “stern yet loving communication” or “tough love”.
I could not agree with you more Ferrous. He needs a serious talking to. Not a hospitalization, not accusations of abuse, and not an “ass-whupping”.
Thank you Mr.Zambezi, you have clearly illuminated the point I’m trying to make: you interpreted “yelling” to mean “irrational angry asshole dad”. Nowhere in the OP do I see evidence of an irrational angry asshole dad. I do see evidence of, at best, a father who could learn a thing or two about effective communication. However, there are truckloads of parents (not just fathers) just like that, and that doesn’t make them all irrational angry assholes by default.
Likewise Mr.Zambezi, I’m not sure how you got “…screaming at (a) 6 month old because they weren’t following directions…” from the OP. Did I miss that part? Or… (drum roll) was that your interpretation of the OP? I agree with you fully that screaming at a 6 month old is not only ludicrous but possibly damaging (to the child). However, the OP didn’t say the father did such a thing. You implied he did, and reacted as such. I, however, will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is not abusing his baby.
Ah ha! A clear thinker among us! Yes, indeed, the father in the OP needs educated. He might also require the “ass-whupping” alluded to earlier if, once he had his ignorance removed, he continued to behave in a fashion that was dangerous to the baby. However, we have no evidence this is the case.
Likewise, “dangerous for infants” and “shaken baby syndrome” are two drastically different things, and we shouldn’t trivialize one by calling it the other.
It is my understanding that one of the primary symptoms of SBS is damage to the brain, specifically bruising on the front and back of the brain (which leads to swelling) as it’s been bounced back and forth in the skull (the “shaking” part). A bump on the head, a concussion, whiplash, etc. etc. are not SBS. A bump on the head, a concussion, whiplash, etc. etc. are certainly possible (and unacceptable) outcomes of inappropriate play with a baby, but they’re not SBS.
Sorry, the OP was just a little light on the specifics and ended with a vague question which just begged us to ridicule the father in question (“Any ideas on weather his yelling will affect his son in the long run?”). It seemed like a troll to me, not a question with a definitive fact-based answer. I apologize if I have misunderstood the term “troll” or misapplied it to this post.
The OP laid out two vague yet inflammatory accusations hoping we would come to the conclusion of “ABUSE!” and join in their trashing of the brother-in-law. They never came out and said the father is abusing the baby. They implied the father was abusing the baby, and you all bought it hook line and sinker.
TiffTZell, can you provide more specifics on the father’s behavior? Here’s what I suspect… either you, he, and your sister have different opinions as to what constitutes reasonable parenting techniques (and he’s not really putting the baby in any danger), or he really is putting the baby in danger of harm, in which case I can’t for the life of me figure out why you’re wasting your time posting here and not at your local precinct house.
Sorry wasn’t trying to troll
I personally think that he needs to go to a parenting class…To me he is rough with someone so small.I am trying to help her decide what to do. I do not have kids…I have cats:) Would I leave my own child with him? Nope…It is almost a sure thing that she is leaving, I can think of a couple things that I do not think are ok…LIke have you guys ever seen one of those bouncy seats? He loves to put the baby in it and pull it back as far as it can go and then let the baby fly out of it into coushins but the baby’s head flies everywhere. My sister told him if he didn’t stop that she was leaving(she is leaving anyway, I think), I have seen him hold the baby a couple inches away from his face and yell at him. ( I took the baby from him and watched him the rest of the night) and other like things but that was not the point…the point was will the baby be hurt by the past behavior? He alwas says that his other children are fine( they are) and he raised them the same. My sister asked me to ask what you guys thought is all. She personally told him if she saw it again that she would have to kill him.(how serious she was is anyones guess) Anyway she asks me for advice, and i have no experience, so she was hoping that someone here knows what or where or whatever, I have no clue where i am going with this, I prob could have asked someone more appropriate, But I don’t know who. Ok how about that, Any suggestions about who to talk to? Heck i give up I am at a loss.
From what you have posted, and from what you say that both you and your sister feel about this, I would say this child needs to be protected from its father.
I have to worry about the mental state of someone who yells three inches from a baby’s face.
I also have to worry about the character of someone who continues to deliberately distress his wife by rough play with their child, whether actually harmful or not.
Is this their first child together? Were “his other children” with a different wife? If not, did he treat these children significantly better than this child.
If so, can your sister contact the mother of these kids? What is this man’s relationship like with his older kids?
I think that she needs to at least separate from him for a time, for her baby’s safety. Because if he is endangering the child and she fails to prevent it, she could also be prosecuted. I am not saying for a second that your sister should be prosecuted, but the courts may take a differen view.
Your sister seems to have a strong maternal instinct about the safety of her child, you also have a strong (aunt-ernal?!) instinct - I think you should both trust those instincts and take action soon.
What possible provocation can a six month old infant muster to have a grown man yell at him? All the kid knows is that some huge person is frightening him for no reason that he can understand. But I suppose it’s better for the father to indulge his pathetic need to dominate and bully a bewildered infant so he can show that he “means business.”
And THAT is what makes the father in the OP an irrational bully AND an asshole. The fact that the OP mentions that he “doesnt believe in shaken baby syndrome” when there is a huge amount of documented evidence to the contrary makes him Heir to the Throne of the King of Assholes.
Ok? Good. Glad to have helped out.
Well, at first I thought [Tiff*'s brother-in-law must be very young – think “teen-age dad who wasn’t raised very well himself.” Then, in [bTiff**'s next post, she mentions that the dude has other children. So, I have to ask: how old is this guy, anyway? And, does he seem like a pretty good guy otherwise? I think this is pertinent. If he’s just a young, stupid/ignorant guy then he can be educated – especially if he’s a basically good guy with a couple of screwy (albeit potentially dangerous) ideas. In that case, I would recommend that your sister give him an ultimatum – “Either you come to parenting classes with me, and actually listen to what they have to say, or the baby and I are going to have to leave.”
One the other hand, if the guy is a full grown individual with these screwy (and potentially dangerous) ideas firmly set in his rock-like skull, then she’d better leave. And, if she’s going to leave, then make sure she has some backup around when she tells him – better safe than sorry.
Oh, BTW. I doubt that what the baby has endured so far will scar him much. Kids are really pretty resilient and the baby is only 6 months old. But, one way or another this needs to be resolved soon. IMHO.
Jess
Yes, it IS abuse.
“Shaken baby” syndrome is quite real. As soon as I read this, I did a quick search on my radiology teaching cases to try to find one I saw on the 'Net; it was a most excellent example of how one can cause permanent and very severe damage by shaking a baby. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the link. Damn!! I think it might have been a Harvard-Brigham case. I did have a Word copy of the file, which reads as follows:
History:
This four-year-old child was brought to the emergency room with a history of “being too sleepy.”
Images:
CT scan without contrast reveals diffuse low density of the cerebral hemispheres, making the normal density cerebellum appear comparatively dense.
CT scan without contrast in a different patient reveals diffuse low density of the cerebral hemispheres, making the normal density basal ganglia appear relatively dense.
T2 weighted axial MRI obtained three months later reveals severe atrophic changes.
Discussion:
Hypoxic-ischemic insults to the central nervous system of infants may show a characteristic sequence of imaging findings. CT immediately after the insult may be normal or near normal in appearance. Over 24-48 hours, diffuse cerebral edema causes loss of the distinction between grey and white matter, obliteration of cortical sulci, and diffuse low density. Frequently there is relative sparing of the cerebellum and or basal ganglia, which appear hyperdense compared to the abnormally low density cerebral hemispheres. This has been termed the “reversal” or “white cerebellum” sign. Severe atrophic changes occur in surviving infants. The discrepancy between this patient’s history and the severe insult should have made you suspect child abuse.
Diagnosis: Hypoxia or diffuse edema from trauma following child abuse.
I really wish you all could see these pictures. Iam so sorry I can’t find the link!
IMHO, the description of “Asshole” applies to the alleged father figure.
TiffTZell
you asked for someplace to go to ask for advice. Can your sister not speak with her doctor, or her midwife? (sorry, don’t know the UK=US translation.)
Failing that, do a search for one of the many message boards that exist for info about pregnancy, childcare.
Here’s one - they have a sister site in the US too:
[index of boards]
http://www.ivillage.co.uk/boards/
[specific pregnancy & baby board]
http://www.ivillage.co.uk/pregnancyandbaby/boards
[parenting without tears]
http://ivy.ivillage.co.uk/boards/ivy/ukpb/parenttears?forum=72
Thanks TiffTZell.
So in a nutshell this is her first kid with this guy and he turns out to be a rotten father?
My condolences to her and her son. I hope she gets the support she needs and does what’s best for them, including leaving the father if need be.
Yes, he’s endangering the baby’s health and well being. He should not be doing this kind of thing with a six month old.
I wholeheartedly agree. The baby is probably OK. However, his father is probably jeopardizing this status.
Yes, it looks like there is cause for concern. It is good to see that your sister has family that is concerned about her. Good luck.
(JCHeckler - You’re right, SBS is real and it is abuse, but this isn’t about SBS. SBS involves severe and repeated trauma to the brain. Even the type of rough play described by Tiff is unlikely to produce such results. No, not impossible (which is why it should not be done), just unlikely. According to Tiff “his other children are fine (they are) and he raised them the same” I take this (admittedly brief) statement to mean the his other kids are not showing signs of abuse, much less SBS.)
YELLING at a six-month-old baby? What could an infant do WRONG that requires raising your voice? Dirty his diaper? Cry? That sounds positively ridiculous to me. Plus, it sounds like he’s setting up for some even WORSE behavior in the future. I hate to pass judgement on what someone is GOING to do later, but if the guy will shout at a baby, what’s he going to do when the kid is five?
L
** Jimbowski**, maybe we read a different OP. Teh OP said:
So he is yelling at an infant with the intent of showing him he means business. Hmmm. So ther eis some rationale for a father to yell at his 6 month old? please, do tell, what would this be?
“showing him he means business” implies that he is trying to control the babies behavior through yelling (screaming, raising one’s voice…whatever.) Teh kid does not understand this. The yelling is just scary. So it slearly shows that this guy does not have even a rudimentary understanding of child development or age appropriate discipline.
n my book it is a matter of res ipsa loquitor: anyone who yells at a 6 month old to control him is an asshole.
Quite frankly Jimbro, it looks like you might have some hidden agenda here. There is no excuse for the father’s behavior (assuming the OP’s description is accurate).
It is abuse. Now what to do about it is a different topic. Unfortunately, the peanut can’t move out of state. Mom shoul dlok to better sources thatn the SDMB though.