Ack! What to do when your SO belongs in Etiquette Hell?

In My Humble Opinion
261

[QUOTE=matt_mcl]
Has it occurred to you that many people want to be told what to wear, so they don’t feel out of place, or so that they can do honour to their hosts? That’s certainly what a lot of people in this thread have been telling you.

[/QUOTE]

I wanted my wedding to be casual, and I didn’t care how people dressed as long as they felt comfortable and looked neat. SO MANY PEOPLE, especially women but both genders, asked me what they should wear in anxious tones, what was I going to wear, what was my husband wearing, blah blah. And everyone was dressed appropriate by my lights except my nutty aunt, who work an ankle-length white spaghetti strap dress. People thought that was odd. Other than that? Worked out fine, but people do wonder.

The host is doing people a kindness, not being tyrannical, by specifying the kind of dress, IMO, because most people want to know because they WANT to dress appropriately. It’s not an onerous chore, it’s part of celebrating the day. YMMV, obviously.

262

Disclaimer: I skipped a few pages in the middle of this thread. I apologize if I’m repeating anything

[QUOTE=lobstermobster]
I hate this attitude that you are deemed “petty” by the fashionably lazy if you care what your guests wear to your wedding. I’ve heard that one before. It’s as if only the people that have the wacky weddings where everyone can come as they are are somehow better friends or cooler people for doing this. I don’t think I have worse or petty friends because they want to have a black tie party, and expect everyone to dress accordingly.

A lot of people think dressing up is fun. I bet a lot of the women in the so called casual and more fun crowds somewhere inside themselves relish the opportunity to wear cocktail attire. Some people are traditional. Some people may not care but come from traditional families where the ritual and pageantry is important to the older generations, for the sake of things going swimmingly, would hope their friends could just fucking get on board without pouting and pulling on their itchy tie like a five year old boy.

It’s usually the people who don’t dress up in suits or business formal (is that a term?) that complain about cocktail attire events. It’s not really that hard. Wrestle him into a suit and tell him to fight you about it later. That’s what I would do. (I have a silicon valley tech nerd boyfriend who also does not own a suit) I personally don’t understand this mindset of being outraged at requests to dress up, but he should do it for you and everyone else. It’s nice to have the pictures of everyone on the rare occasion where they can dress up to honor and respect a marriage.
[/QUOTE]

(bolding in quoted passage mine)

This is at this point maybe a slight hijack, but I think it’s important to note that for some (many?) men, part of the issue is that the gradations of various formal dress codes can be confusing, and can even mean different things depending on who is throwing the party, your location, the relative wealth of the other guests, etc etc etc.

“Black tie” and “cocktail” dress are not the same thing, and the one suit a guy might own might not truly be in the spirit of one or the other.

Also, it may be that the guy has/had a suit that doesn’t quite fit anymore, but damned if he’s going to go out and buy a new suit for this specific occasion when all he’s got to do is lose 15 pounds to fit into his old suit that he paid good money for.

Anecdote:

I’m a 27 year old male, and while I own a suit, I don’t fit into it anymore (at the moment?). I can wear the jacket somewhat self-consciously, but not the pants. Over the last four years or so I’ve been to many weddings. For all of them (dress code specified or not) I’ve worn slacks, a shirt and tie, and maybe the jacket. I’ve never been the most well-dressed, but I’ve also never been out of place.

This is all just to say that I can see where some men would say, "fuck it, this is too complicated, I don’t have anything that truly fits with what I’m being asked to wear, (and maybe feel slightly self-conscious about that), and so I’m just going to assume that anything I wear will be wrong, so I might as well wear what I want to wear, and then get unnecessarily defensive about my choice.

WRT Diogenes (and others perhaps), the thing is that a wedding or other similar event is that it is a social occasion. This means that we exercise certain social etiquettes that we would not normally. It’s about playing the game of interacting in a group as a group, following specific social rules.

Whether or not you as an individual quite grok the necessity of those rules is besides the point; following those rules as a group is its own end, and to blatantly refuse to play along just says that you are choosing to not participate with the group.

That’s your prerogative of course, and you might say that you can participate in the group dressed however you like, but in this case, for this artificially-created environment, the rules have been changed so that dressing a certain way becomes an expression of your willingness to participate as a group in the event.

I’m a fairly independent person who stretches a lot of dress codes to suit my own comfort level, but the function of a dress code (or any other large or small group convention) as an effective way to communicate group participation is not lost on me.

263

This story should make the OP feel better by comparison: my best friend decided to marry the guy she’s been with for 14 years, though he’s a mean, lying, etc etc etc (but she wanted to marry him, etc etc etc).

She planned a picture-book wedding at an expensive hotel, dropped 30k on the affair, and looked absolutely stunning. The groom showed up in a tux two sizes too big (think the oversized clothes “gangsta” look) and then disappeared after the ceremony for three hours. My friend sat at the head table alone, circulated amongst the guests alone, and tried to pretend like everything was okay (we were all aghast and tried to be very kind and upbeat).

The groom had gone home, watched some TV, tinkered around the house, and changed into his usual look of enormous jeans, work boots, and a torn t-shirt. He came back as the reception was winding down. My friend was beside herself with rage and their photos from that portion of the wedding depict a lovely bride next to someone who looks like a roofer.

It was not a nice wedding night.

264

I meant to post these observations upriver. Re: academe and dress:

-I’m a college prof and dress every day to teach. Both institutions I’ve held tenure-track jobs at have an unspoken guideline about looking professional.

-Profs I’ve worked with who wear shorts and torn t-shirts to work have often experienced the glass ceiling as far as being considered for administrative and/or institutional representative positions. Is there room for and should there be room for Birkenstock-wearing, torn t-shirt, and wild Einstein hair’d professors? Absolutely! But the reality is that even in supposedly liberal academe, clothes say a lot about the person.

-The OP’s SO really needs to have a nice suit to wear for interviews. I’m on our department’s search committee and I can tell you that any candidate who shows up in less than a tie and dress slacks (male) is pretty much dead in the water from the beginning of the interview. One of our interviewers regularly shows up in shorts and a Far Side t-shirt to interview, but woe be unto the interviewee who doesn’t look like Joe Corporate.

Now that I’ve finished my clothing spiel, I wanted to add that finishing a dissertation is one of the most difficult things a person can experience. If SO is balky and upset about going, it might be kind to release him from attendance responsibility. I know you’re anticipating this getaway as a relaxing jaunt to see family; your SO might be experiencing it as time stolen from him when he could be finishing his degree.

265

Jennshark: Did your friend wise up yet?

266

[QUOTE=Dung Beetle]
Jennshark: Did your friend wise up yet?
[/QUOTE]

Nope, and she never will. She’s a kind, sweet, wonderful friend, but a total doormat when it comes to this guy. She craves stability – any kind of stability – over change and he’s the known quantity.

267

I keep seeing certain buzzwords in this thread. “Slavish”, “control freak”, “sheer unmitigated gall”, “imposed”, “forced.” DtC, Paul, and wolfman, do those words really describe your lives? Do you really live in a world where people force you, with a threat of violence, to attend social gatherings? Has that ever happened to you even once? Be honest now. And if your answer is yes, maybe your worst problem is not your wardrobe.

As mentioned upthread, I’m going to a party on Sunday. While I got an invitation, I’m not a special guest whose presence will be particularly honored. Everyone in the department got invited. Sure, there are a few people who really want me to go, but most people will have no idea who I am. Most of the attendees will be nurses whom I’ve never met. (Reason enough to go!) And if there is no other reason to go, there is free food and free alcohol.

I do not need to pay to attend. I do not need to show ID. I don’t even need to pay to park. All I have to do is show up and these people will feed me and show me a good time.

I do, however, need to wear nice clothes.

Those fucking oppressive bastards! How dare they? Goddam control freaks, forcing me at gunpoint to buy an expensive suit so that I can flaunt my vast wealth. Elitist shits.

I’ll show them. I’ll show up in a bikini and scuba mask, just to spite their oppressive hospitality. I mean, how dare they make me their slave?

Come on, guys. Time for a reality check.

268

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
Yeah, call your husband a scuzzball because he’s an embarrassment to you. That’ll do the trick.
[/QUOTE]

The truth hurts. I call my husband on it when he’s being unreasonable, and he’d do the same for me. It’s an in-house reality check. I tell him when he’s dressing like a bum, and he tells me when I’m being unfriendly (not on purpose, we just zone out on different things). As neither of us is extra-social, the help is appreciated.

Thanks, Dung Beetle, I’ve been trying to post more lately. Unfortunately, most of my opinions are quite obnoxious. We’ve struck on a lovely exception.

269

[QUOTE=Jennshark]
The groom had gone home, watched some TV, tinkered around the house, and changed into his usual look of enormous jeans, work boots, and a torn t-shirt. He came back as the reception was winding down.
[/QUOTE]

Wow.

I can only hope that this guy has an enormous dick. It certainly sounds like he is one.

270

[QUOTE=Jennshark]
Nope, and she never will.
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Oh, I hope that’s not true. I’m sorry to hear it.

Ah. Well, you express yourself very nicely!

271

[QUOTE=Dung Beetle]
Oh, I hope that’s not true. I’m sorry to hear it.
[/QUOTE]

My friend comes from an extremely dysfunctional and chaotic family of gamblers, heroin/meth users, criminals, and so on; all she has ever wanted is a stable, boring life. She’ll do anything to keep things familiar and, to her mind, stable (stay with a guy because she’s been with him since sixth grade; work the same job she hates for 20 years).

I love her dearly and have learned to accept her as she is. She does not want to change. Anything. Ever. Fortunately (for her friends), the hubbie is pathologically anti-social, so we can have a lovely relationship that has nothing to do with him.

272

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
It wasn’t my choice. I just wanted to go to a justice of the peace.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t get it. If weddings are about the guests, which you have definitively stated here, then what is the point of a wedding where there are no guests?

You don’t have to convince ME of the merits of a JP wedding, because I happen to be in the opposite camp (where the wedding is primarily about celebrating the union of the two people getting married no matter how many (or few) guests they have).

I just don’t understand why you sought a no-guests wedding when you’re admonishing the SDMB that the wedding is primarily about guests.

273

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I think your husband is right. I don’t think the hosts have any right to tell the guests what to wear. That’s exactly the kind of thing that makes me hate weddings. If the hosts actually care, then they’re very petty people.

[/QUOTE]

What planet are you from? The host has every right to ask the guests what to wear. If you don’t like it, don’t show up.

274

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
I dunno - is there something inherently wrong with me? It wouldn’t even occur to me to tell anyone what to wear to an event to which I had invited them.
[/QUOTE]
You’ve never had dress code specified for an event? There is a difference between a casual shinding and a formal “event”. Formal events often have dress codes. Hell, I’ve gone to conferences with dress codes.

Eg/ A formal invitation will black tie or white tie. Is a morning coat okay or will it a full dress ocasion requiring a black tux with pique vest?

At my buddy’s wedding, the operators of the venue would not allow you to enter if you were not wearing a jacket and tie. The venue had a dress code. It was specified on the inivtation.

275

[QUOTE=CrankyAsAnOldMan]
I don’t get it. If weddings are about the guests, which you have definitively stated here, then what is the point of a wedding where there are no guests?
[/QUOTE]
If the guests are going to insult the hosts, then they should not attend. Appropriate attire is like good table manners, you don’t do it for you or your own comfort. You do it as a courtesy and a symbol of respect for those around you. You dress up for a wedding or funeral to acknowledge the solemnity of the occasion.

If you show up in a t-shirt and jeans, you are effectively saying: “This event is as significant and as notable as shopping at Wal-Mart.” It is disrespectful.

If is important to me to have my family attend to celebrate the joyful and very meaningful occasion, but I would rather have zero guests at my wedding than 50 who are displaying a total disregard for the significance and poignancy of my vows.

276

[QUOTE=CrankyAsAnOldMan]
I don’t get it. If weddings are about the guests, which you have definitively stated here, then what is the point of a wedding where there are no guests?

You don’t have to convince ME of the merits of a JP wedding, because I happen to be in the opposite camp (where the wedding is primarily about celebrating the union of the two people getting married no matter how many (or few) guests they have).

I just don’t understand why you sought a no-guests wedding when you’re admonishing the SDMB that the wedding is primarily about guests.
[/QUOTE]

I guess I’m drawing a distinction between between just making it legal (which is all I wanted to do) and actually throwing a “wedding.” Simply “getting married” isn’t about anything but establishing a particular legal status. It’s paperwork. A “wedding” is a party where people are invited to watch. A “wedding” is a courtesy to family and friends. It isn’t a necessary part of getting married.

277

[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone]
If the guests are going to insult the hosts, then they should not attend. Appropriate attire is like good table manners, you don’t do it for you or your own comfort. You do it as a courtesy and a symbol of respect for those around you. You dress up for a wedding or funeral to acknowledge the solemnity of the occasion.

If you show up in a t-shirt and jeans, you are effectively saying: “This event is as significant and as notable as shopping at Wal-Mart.” It is disrespectful.

If is important to me to have my family attend to celebrate the joyful and very meaningful occasion, but I would rather have zero guests at my wedding than 50 who are displaying a total disregard for the significance and poignancy of my vows.
[/QUOTE]

What a shallow way to judge somebody. Do you think that 20 year later, people remember and care more about who was at their wedding or what they were wearing?

Caring about what people wear to your wedding is caring about the wrong thing from day one.

278

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
What a shallow way to judge somebody.
[/QUOTE]

(Bolding mine)

You keep using that word. This suggests to me that you don’t understand the basic point of such social events. While I don’t doubt that parties are, on rare occasion, held for the sole purpose of judging the guests, the reality is that the vast majority of them are not held for that reason. I do not no a single (or would that be married?) person who decided to make lifelong vows, exchange gold bands, and spend tens of thousands of dollars for the sole purpose of judging their closest friends and loved ones. Why go to all that trouble for something you could do for free and without making a lifelong commitment?

On the other hand, most every married person I know wanted to make the occasion special, and that included asking guests to look their best for the day. If they are going to spend such vast resources on the events of a few hours, it’s not an unreasonable request. As has been said again and again, no one is forcing you to attend.

279

[QUOTE=tdn]
(Bolding mine)

You keep using that word. This suggests to me that you don’t understand the basic point of such social events. While I don’t doubt that parties are, on rare occasion, held for the sole purpose of judging the guests, the reality is that the vast majority of them are not held for that reason. I do not no a single (or would that be married?) person who decided to make lifelong vows, exchange gold bands, and spend tens of thousands of dollars for the sole purpose of judging their closest friends and loved ones. Why go to all that trouble for something you could do for free and without making a lifelong commitment?

On the other hand, most every married person I know wanted to make the occasion special, and that included asking guests to look their best for the day. If they are going to spend such vast resources on the events of a few hours, it’s not an unreasonable request. As has been said again and again, no one is forcing you to attend.
[/QUOTE]

The problem is that a lot of the hosts apperently don’t understand the purpose of these events. They have no come to believe it’s all about them and that guests should be treated as nothing but ornamnents for their wedding pictures. I never said that people were making these events in order to judge their guests, but expecting their guests to be inanimate decorations is narcissistic and shallow and judging people they’re supposed to care about by their willingness to play along with something so trivial and shallow and stupid as a dress code does not show much depth of character.

Fortunately for me, most of my friends and family feel the same way I do. Making the guests comfortable an having a good time is what matters. Clothes mean nothing. I made a point before my wedding of telling all my friends and my brothers to wear anything they wanted. There was no dress code. I told them they could wear shorts and Metallica shirts if they wanted. Everyone here should learn from my example.

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[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
What a shallow way to judge somebody. Do you think that 20 year later, people remember and care more about who was at their wedding or what they were wearing?

Caring about what people wear to your wedding is caring about the wrong thing from day one.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I think you’ll find that people aren’t judging someone who wears sweatpants and a wifebeater to a formal occasion by their clothing. What they’re judging them by is their apparent lack of consideration for the feelings of other people.

Other posters have said it more eloquently than I, but I’ll give it a whirl anyway. Ya never know. People dress up for formal occasions to show respect for the occasion and to show respect and consideration for the feelings of their host by participating in the spirit of the event being hosted.

If one doesn’t want to particpate in the spirit of the event, gracefully decline the invitation to the event. If it’s an obligation to attend, then presumably you’re close enough to the host that their feelings matter to you and you’ll be willing to humor their request. Why go to an opera party if you hate music? If you go and aren’t happy - or spend the evening demonstrating you hate music to all and sundry - you’re taking away from not only the enjoyment of the other guests, but the enjoyment of your hosts who were hoping everyone would have a good time (or so one would presume).