Ack! What to do when your SO belongs in Etiquette Hell?

In My Humble Opinion
281

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Everyone here should learn from my example.
[/QUOTE]

Please no.

The concept of shared responsibility seems to be eluding you. It’s not about falling to your knees and worshiping the wedding party, it’s about assuming responsibility for your role in the event. Some people spend many thousands of dollars on the decorations, flowers, clothes, and food for their weddings, in an effort to make things beautiful and special. It seems deliberately cruel to me to not exert the modicum of effort it takes to dress such that you are at least acknowledging the effort. Weddings are just about the only excuse people have anymore to throw a really nice party; it doesn’t seem that hard to indulge your hosts, especially when they’re undertaking a huge effort to make the wedding nice. I don’t think most hosts are trying to make their guests “be inanimate decorations,” but rather to encourage them to participate in the event. The wedding party is almost always dressed carefully, and the guests’ willingness to put effort into their appearance indicates their enthusiastic support and participation. Someone who deigns to show up but puts no effort into it looks like someone who really doesn’t want to be there, which is an insult to the host.

/edit: On preview, what Aangelica said.

282

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
What a shallow way to judge somebody. Do you think that 20 year later, people remember and care more about who was at their wedding or what they were wearing?
[/QUOTE]

Actually, it’s both.

The Boy’s aunt and uncle got married in a black tie ceremony at the Ritz in Montreal back in the mid-60s. The entire event was incredibly swank in the way that only the 60s could be.

They pulled out their photo album for us last time we were visiting… the discussion wasn’t just about who was there, but also the wonderfully amazing clothing they decided to wear. It’s not just that a former Miss Israel showed up, but that she’s wearing the teensiest miniskirt I’ve ever seen… it’s not just that their black sheep uncle showed up, but that he happened to be sporting a Hitler mustache as a political statement. And it’s the fact that the married couple, who are the least formal people I know, are dressed up and looking damned good.

Events are a sum of their parts - after the fact, you not only remember who came, but what they looked like and what they did and what they said. After all, don’t you remember your BIL in his NRA t-shirt? That’s a pretty specific memory to have after all those years, no?

(for the record, the groom was a staunch anti-establishment old-fogey hippie - who was a young anti-establishment pre-hippie at the time - and normally doesn’t give a damn about combing his hair most days, let alone dressing up. He wore a tux to both of his daughters’ weddings, and I’m sure will don a suit when his grandson has his Bar Mitzvah in a couple of years)

283

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Clothes mean nothing. I made a point before my wedding of telling all my friends and my brothers to wear anything they wanted.
[/quote]

Actually, if clothes meant nothing, you wouldn’t have cared whether your friends and brothers showed up in black tie or Speedos, and so you wouldn’t have said a thing about what they could wear in the first place.

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
There was no dress code. I told them they could wear shorts and Metallica shirts if they wanted.
[/QUOTE]

Congratulations. Despite yourself, you set a dress code - ultra-casual - for your wedding, and your guests followed your code. What a surprise!

284

[QUOTE=Vihaga]
Please no.

The concept of shared responsibility seems to be eluding you. It’s not about falling to your knees and worshiping the wedding party, it’s about assuming responsibility for your role in the event.
[/quote]

Guests do not have a “responsibility” or a “role” in the event. The event is for their benefit.

A ridiculous and narcissistic waste of money. One more reason I despise wedding culture. I find that kind of extravagent spending for something so unimportant to be incredibly self-centered. I would refuse to go to a wedding like that on principle.

Who gives a crap about their effort to waste money on themselves?

Telling guests how to dress is an insult to the guests. The wedding is for the benefit of the guests, not the hosts.

285

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
but expecting their guests to be inanimate decorations
[/QUOTE]
Where on Earth did you get that idea?

I do not believe that I have ever been invited to a wedding simply as an inanimate decoration. If that’s what the bride and groom wanted, they would have done far better hiring a male model to stand in my place. Is it mere coinicidence that in every wedding I’ve been invited to, I’ve been either a relative or close personal friend of either the bride or groom or both? In every single case, I was invited because my presence was desired. I don’t believe I’ve ever been invited to any event, at any time (except maybe a date) merely because of my ravishing beauty.

And yet I was still expected to dress up. My suit was not invited. I was invited, but I would have caused a social faux pas had I shown up in parachute pants and sleeveless denim vest. (Wow, it’s been a really long time since I went to a lot of weddings.) I had too much respect for the wedding parties to embarass them or myself by not taking the care to make myself presentable.

286

[QUOTE=Jean Gray]
Actually, if clothes meant nothing, you wouldn’t have cared whether your friends and brothers showed up in black tie or Speedos, and so you wouldn’t have said a thing about what they could wear in the first place.
[/quote]

I wouldn’t have cared if they showed up in black tie either. I didn’t have a choice about saying anything. They kept asking me what to wear and I kept saying “I don’t care, wear whatever you want.”

No I didn’t. I didn’t say it HAD to be causal. I just said I didn’t give a rat’s ass what anyone wore. They could dress up or not dress up. It meant nothing to me. As matter of fact, most of them did dress up, but not all did (as I mentioned upthread) which made for an interesting clash of dress at the event.

287

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Telling guests how to dress is an insult to the guests.
[/QUOTE]

That is your opinion, not fact. It has already been refuted a number of times, and quite successfully.

288

[QUOTE=tdn]
That is your opinion, not fact. It has already been refuted a number of times, and quite successfully.
[/QUOTE]

It’s been disagreed with. It hasn’t been refuted and can’t be. It’s a matter of opinion. It’s not a falsifiable scientific hypothesis.

289

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The problem is that a lot of the hosts apperently don’t understand the purpose of these events.
[/QUOTE]
No, the host is the one who *determines *the purpose of these events. That’s what a host does! A host thinks, “Hmm…I’d like to get together for the purpose of watching the superbowl.” Or “I’d like to invite people over for the purpose of eating fondue while wearing silly hats.” or “I’d like to invite that hot chick from accounting over to lick my balls.” or “I’d like to invite my friends and family to Mexico to show them a good time; we can all get dressed up and drink and dance and while they’re there, I’ll tell them all how much we love each other and that we want to stay together forever! Hmmm…if only there were a catchy name for that that would fit across the top of an invitation card…I know! I’ll call it a wedding!”

If you host, you determine what the purpose of events is. Then you invite people. If they like and share your purpose, then they may choose to come. If they don’t like any part of that purpose, they decline.

The only wedding YOU get to determine the purpose of is yours. Wait, scratch that. Apparently your wife got to determine that. Oh, well. So that means you don’t get to determine the purpose of anyone’s wedding. So sad.

Really, I don’t mind your determined howling here. If it keeps you from rocking the boat in your own marriage, that’s cool. Just don’t expect us to be any more swayed by your quirks than your wife is.

290

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
They kept asking me what to wear and I kept saying “I don’t care, wear whatever you want.”
[/QUOTE]

Then I respectfully submit that you were derelict in your duties as host. Your guests were asking you for guidance, and you refused to give it to them.

291

[QUOTE=tdn]
Then I respectfully submit that you were derelict in your duties as host. Your guests were asking you for guidance, and you refused to give it to them.
[/QUOTE]
That was my thought. I kind of feel bad for Diogenes’ friends.

292

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I wouldn’t have cared if they showed up in black tie either. I didn’t have a choice about saying anything. They kept asking me what to wear and I kept saying “I don’t care, wear whatever you want.”
[/quote]

So, the fact that so many of your guests asked you - the host - for guidance hasn’t yet tipped you off that setting of the dress code by the host of a social event is expected?

And because you, the host, were lax in your duties and didn’t give people any guidance other than that you “didn’t give a rat’s ass” (which is a remarkably rude statement if you in fact phrased it that way), most people defaulted to showing what they felt was appropriate respect for the occasion and got dressed up anyway. The rest “clashed.” Hey, isn’t the very use of that word kind of judgmental? Tsk tsk.

He really does seem bound and determined to be an internet warrior here, doesn’t he? Ah well. It’s a good problem, it’s a difficult problem, but it’s not my problem. :wink:

293

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
That seems a little obvious. I’d probably approach it by saying something like “Look, you can’t fight every battle. I know that your principles are important to you, but if you want to make an issue of this, do it some other time. Just wear a damn suit!”
[/QUOTE]

It may be “obvious”, but it also seems to be true, based on her post about the tux earlier.

We’re going to a wedding this weekend. Most of the men will probably be in suits. My husband will wear a suit. He wears jeans/boots almost all the time, and hates ties, but he will dress appropriately for several reasons:

It’s appropriate
The other men will be wearing suits
I love the way he looks in a suit
He likes and respects both the bride and the groom (one of my associates)
He likes the way he looks in a suit, even if it isn’t exactly comfortable

294

[QUOTE=Jean Gray]
He really does seem bound and determined to be an internet warrior here, doesn’t he?
[/QUOTE]

What’s funny is that usually agree with him on most topics, more so than most other Dopers. But wow. He’s gone pretty far off the rails on this one. I can sort of understand his opinion, but it’s quite clearly wrong. :wink:

As long as this is IMHO, and no minds are being changed anyway, let me ask a question.

The party I’m going to has no stated dress code, but it’s commonly known to be a dress-up affair. It’s understood that men will wear suits. Would it be bad form for me to wear white tie and tails?

(Can you tell I really want to?)

295

[QUOTE=tdn]
The party I’m going to has no stated dress code, but it’s commonly known to be a dress-up affair. It’s understood that men will wear suits. Would it be bad form for me to wear white tie and tails?

(Can you tell I really want to?)
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I think it is bad form, for the same reason wearing jeans to a cocktail party is wrong: it draws attention to yourself. Being part of a party is about moving with the flow - dancing when other people are dancing and not when one person is talking; talking with others when others are talking to each other, and not swinging from the chandeliers; eating when others are eating, and not bringing in a bag of Subway before the meal - basically, anything that pulls them out of the group experience and draws the focus of the group onto you is rude.

Much as I’d love to see you in a while tie and tails, but you’d be better off throwing your own white-tie event or finding a fundraiser to go to where it’s appropriate.

Tell you what - come to Chicago and we’ll see if we can arrange a white-tie Dopefest. Giordano’s Pizzeria will LOVE us! :smiley:

296

I’m there!

297

[QUOTE=matt_mcl]
If someone chooses to disregard that, the hosts must still be gracious towards them, but what the guest has done is rude.
[/QUOTE]

The host must be gracious always. However, the host is under no obligation to invite the boorish and rude guest out again. Nor are the other guests obligated to invite the boorish and rude guest to their occations.

I have a number of “acquaintences” who have found themselves slowly ostricized over the years by endlessly boorish behavior. For a while they are at everyone’s parties, and then slowly it becomes “oh, we forgot to send them a note.” These aren’t formal types of occations (we are past the wedding point for the most part), but casual parties - and the offenses aren’t dress - they usually have more to do with dominating conversations, being generally unpleasant to other guests, complaining loudly about the hosts selection of food (don’t they know I’m a VEGETARIAN!), or making repeated inappropriate passes at female guests. If I run into these people (I ran into one last summer) they always remark that they don’t see anyone anymore, apparently no one has parties like they used to. The parties are still there, we’ve just, over the years, gotten less tolerant of the guest list.

We have one relation that it always disturbs us when a well meaning other relation passes along an invitation to her and her family and suddenly she appears at the door. We are always gracious hosts, but we didn’t intend to invite her and now need to “put up with her” as do our other guests. She makes several people very uncomfortable with her presence. In making her comfortable, we make our other guests uncomfortable - a problematic situation for a host.

298

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
Or, if one is me, one doesn’t presume to tell one’s guests what they should wear. At least, not now one has learned one’s lesson - in making a crass assumption that one’s guests were being offered a favour, and that they should simply be damn grateful to be invited and wear what one tells them to.

On the other hand, one could be truly polite and not have the sheer unmitigated gall to tell one’s guests what they should or shouldn’t wear.

One’s photos may not look so pretty, but one will reap one’s rewards multifold in having guests who do not think one is a control freak who regards their presence as something they should be privileged to have been granted.

There is something of a difference between “I feel like having a silly hat party this week” and “This is my wedding”. Dress codes simply isolate. I agree that it is rude to violate such a code, I simply wouldn’t put anyone in that situation to begin with.
[/QUOTE]

Paul, let me give you a perspective not as a host, or as the guest who wants to wear whatever they damn well please, but as another guest.

I’M not comfortable when I don’t know how to dress for an occation. I don’t like being “the only person who thought this was a dress up thing and wore a dress.” Nor do I like being “the only person that didn’t know and wore jeans.” It seems that for any occation, the vast majority of people will have one mode of dress - and I don’t want to be the one that wore “whatever I wanted” and what that was was significantly different. I went to a formal party a few years ago - and wore a formal gown like everyone else. And out of 100+ women at the party, was one of THREE not wearing black - it was not at all comfortable - though my dress was comfortable and I looked great in it.

Moreover, I’m not comfortable with someone who sticks out too much. BlueKangeroo’s story in post #4 - if I were a guest at her wedding, I wouldn’t have been comfortable - and from her story it sounds like many of her guests weren’t. What happened is that one guests comfort in dress took precedence over the comfort of everyone else in the room - that wasn’t fair. Now, there wasn’t an out, the hosts are under an obligation to be gracious to ALL their guests and make the best of it. But this isn’t one guests comfort against the hosts desires - the comfort of all is to be considered.

Should Great Aunt Mabel become a less shallow person and stop caring that one of the bridesmaids boyfriends showed up in baggy jeans and a t-shirt. Perhaps, but ettiquette wise she is in the right.

299

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
I don’t like being “the only person who thought this was a dress up thing and wore a dress.” Nor do I like being “the only person that didn’t know and wore jeans.”
[/QUOTE]

A long, long time ago I was invited, a little indirectly, to a party.

You know what a party is, right? It’s when a bunch of guys get together and drink until they puke, all to the gentle strains of some heavy metal band on the stereo. I wore jeans that didn’t quite fit and a tee shirt that was of questionable cleanliness, and brought some uber-cheap beer.

I got there to find the host wearing a tux. So was everyone else. There was wine and cheese. The stereo was playing Mozart. The guests were talking about stock options and 401k programs. (The mean age was about 22.) I felt so incredibly uncomfortable that I left by about 10, and that was on 12/31.

The host was not a jerk. In fact, he went out of his way to make me feel comfortable. But had it been conveyed to me what sort of party it was, I would have dressed very differently or not have shown up in the first place.

300

I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that people feel dress codes for special events are rude or wrong. I’ve never been to a wedding where I didn’t automatically think “ooh I’ll wear a dress and the bf will wear a shirt and tie etc.” Most weddings are dress up events. The groom is often wearing a tux or nice suit, and the bride a very nice or even ornate bridal gown. To me it just seems weird if the guests show up in jeans looking like they’re heading to Taco Bell. Maybe if the bride and groom wanted to be in jeans it would be fine.

Some things you just dress up for.

Weddings, funerals, job interviews, cocktail parties.

I just can’t see why that’s a big deal.

It’s not about conformity. The hosts aren’t asking everyone to wear the same outfit. They’re dressing up, and way more than they’d like you to. Do you not feel uncomfortable being the only person at the party in jeans when everyone else is wearing dresses and suits? If you enjoy looking like an asshole, go right ahead I guess.