[QUOTE=myskepticsight]
Do you not feel uncomfortable being the only person at the party in jeans when everyone else is wearing dresses and suits?
[/QUOTE]
It’s never bothered me in the slightest. Odds are that I wouldn’t even notice I was dressed different.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
It’s never bothered me in the slightest. Odds are that I wouldn’t even notice I was dressed different.
[/QUOTE]
Being obtuse is never a personality trait to strive for. So at a formal charity event where everyone is in formal attire, you showing up in jeans and a t-shirt–you wouldn’t feel out of place. uh-huh. sure.
I see you are playing the Dio game again.
Pretty much done with this thread-too bad, it could have been an interesting thread with someone actually interested in truly discussing the issue.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
It’s never bothered me in the slightest. Odds are that I wouldn’t even notice I was dressed different.
[/QUOTE]
And yet somehow you did manage to notice a guest wearing jeans and an NRA t-shirt at your own wedding. You also managed to notice that the guests wearing casual attire “clashed” with those that were more dressed up.
Interesting.
My fiancé hates dressing up. We were invited to a semi-formal event and I had to drag him to the store to get him dress pants and shirt, he put his foot down on the jacket, and that was fine. He grumbled the whole time and ultimately it was the worst day of shopping I have ever had, but he did it because he knew that it was the proper thing to do, and now he wears the same dress outfit for every event we go too.
Last night I asked him what he would think of a wedding invitation that said cocktail dress. His response was that it would be great. That way he didn’t have to think about what to wear. He wasn’t so sure on what cocktail dress was, but that’s why I’m around.
This is coming from a guy who hates all form of dressing up, he wears the same black runners every day, matched with jeans and a t-shirt, most likely one that he got as swag.
It’s all a matter of knowing good manners, and dressing appropriately is just plain old good manners.
[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
And yet somehow you did manage to notice a guest wearing jeans and an NRA t-shirt at your own wedding. You also managed to notice that the guests wearing casual attire “clashed” with those that were more dressed up.
Interesting.
[/QUOTE]
Only because my wife pointed that stuff out to me. I didn’t really know the difference until she showed me the pictures later. Not so interesting.
Jeez - seven pages on this? But someone back on page 2 got it right, I think, and using phrasing that the average eight-year-old can understand pretty well.
If you won’t wear appropriate clothes to an event, then it doesn’t make you a bad person. It doesn’t make you a lesser being. You know what it makes you?
A party-pooper.
A killjoy.
A person who’s so wrapped up in your own oh-so-serious views on “conformity” and “independence” and “culture” that you’re not fun to be around.
Everyone who was invited to my wedding was a friend of either me or my wife. Friends, I shouldn’t but apparently do have to explain, like one another and want one another to have fun and be happy. Now, I don’t understand some of the things that my friends like and have fun doing. My friend Liz performs in opera, which I don’t particularly enjoy. But when she’s in one, and she invites me to go, I go. I could refuse to attend, I guess. Or I could go and listen to the Mets on the radio. But even though I don’t really enjoy the opera of itself, Liz does, and her enjoyment is heightened by having her friends come see her and clap for her and not listen to the baseball game. And I want my friends to be happy, because they’re, you know, my friends.
So you weigh the negatives of going: I’m going to have to hear people sing in German for three hours, and I’m going to need to wear nice-ish clothes and I’ll be missing Mets-Braves tonight - against the positives: Liz will appreciate my presence and have a good time, and Nick and Shannon and I will get a few good giggles out of the performances given by the nonprofessional tenors, and afterward we’ll all go to an Applebees and talk about the show and compliment Liz, and it’ll be a nice experience shared by a bunch of friends.
And since the negatives are so small and petty, and the positives are so big and fun, why not go to the opera?
That’s what friendships - and I include family relationships that are friendly, as well - actually are about: enjoying one another’s company, and getting enjoyment out of doing things that make one another happy. Another friend, Ed, has a yearly costume party for Halloween. It’s a costume party. I don’t like wearing Halloween costumes, but I like Ed, and he likes throwing costume parties. I could go in jeans and a T-shirt, and Ed would still let me in the door, but I’d be making the event about my own noncomformity instead of about friends having fun with other friends, and that would make me a killjoy. And really, what the hell difference does it make if I wear a costume? I don’t know why he likes having costume parties - I wouldn’t throw one - but he does, and he’s my friend, so - awesome.
Or someone gets married. And they want a wedding that isn’t like the wedding you wanted, but you know that if you put on a suit and show up at the Church it will bring them genuine happiness.
So you have a choice. You can decide to put on the suit, and maybe your arm movement is restricted a bit, but your friend is just the tiniest bit happier and gets the party that he or she wanted. Or you can decide that your friend doesn’t deserve to have the party he or she wants because it’s not the party you would have wanted.
And if you pick the latter option, then you’re not a monster. You’re just a party-pooper; a killjoy. And you will, in the end, have exactly the kind of friends that you are. If you’re happy with that, knock yourself out, I guess.
The host has no right to decide what kind of dress is “appropriate.” The guest is always right.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The host has no right to decide what kind of dress is “appropriate.” The guest is always right.
[/QUOTE]
Sure. The guest is always right. I could show up in jeans and a T-shirt to my friend’s annual Halloween party, and etiquette-wise, I’d be in the right and as a host, he’d let me in and give me the same beer he gave the people in the vampire suits.
But I’d still be a killjoy.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The host has no right to decide what kind of dress is “appropriate.” The guest is always right.
[/QUOTE]
Cite? 
No, I know it’s an opinion, not a factual statement. Unless you meant it as one, in which case I’ll take a quote from a recognized etiquette authority (say, Judith Martin or Emily Post or, I dunno, whomever runs White House dinners) as a cite - but you have to support *both *statements, that a host has no right to decide what kind of dress is appropriate AND that the guest is always right.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Cite?
No, I know it’s an opinion, not a factual statement. Unless you meant it as one, in which case I’ll take a quote from a recognized etiquette authority (say, Judith Martin or Emily Post or, I dunno, whomever runs White House dinners) as a cite - but you have to support *both *statements, that a host has no right to decide what kind of dress is appropriate AND that the guest is always right.
[/QUOTE]
Well, IMO, the reason the guest is right is because the guest is the one who is being asked to do something. It makes no sense for a person to request a favor of another person, and then to impose specific conditions for how that favor should be carried out. Asking someone to dress up for a party is like asking them to take out the garbage for you but to wear a tie while they do it.
I know, I now. I don’t have to go. Well, for the most part, I don’t. I’m not a party person. I only go to events it would be extremely difficult to get out of like weddings and funerals. Otherwise if formality is requested, I’m staying home. Not my thing.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I know, I now. I don’t have to go. Well, for the most part, I don’t. I’m not a party person. I only go to events it would be extremely difficult to get out of like weddings and funerals. Otherwise if formality is requested, I’m staying home. Not my thing.
[/QUOTE]
That’s reasonable.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Well, IMO, the reason the guest is right is because the guest is the one who is being asked to do something. It makes no sense for a person to request a favor of another person, and then to impose specific conditions for how that favor should be carried out. Asking someone to dress up for a party is like asking them to take out the garbage for you but to wear a tie while they do it.
I know, I now. I don’t have to go. Well, for the most part, I don’t. I’m not a party person. I only go to events it would be extremely difficult to get out of like weddings and funerals. Otherwise if formality is requested, I’m staying home. Not my thing.
[/QUOTE]
I think I see the disconnect here. I THINK that most people would not consider it a “favor” to attend a party. When I give a party, I do it with the idea that my friends will enjoy it, not put up with it because I asked them to (at least, I HOPE so!). In fact, most people consider it to be the other way around from what you say…that the host is doing the favor for throwing a party, presumably with food, drink, and company that others will enjoy. That’s why you are supposed to reciprocate when people invite you to things.
I think most people think, “Oh how nice! A party!” If your response is, “Oh crap! A party!,” then your perspective is going to be a little different.
Just so we can get some cites on the table here.
http://www.advancedetiquette.com/newsletter/october_issue.htm
On etiquette tips for writing invitations.
http://www.announcingit.com/main/mailing_etiquette.asp
http://homegarden.expertvillage.com/experts/invitation-etiquette.htm
Would you like more?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Well, IMO, the reason the guest is right is because the guest is the one who is being asked to do something. It makes no sense for a person to request a favor of another person, and then to impose specific conditions for how that favor should be carried out. Asking someone to dress up for a party is like asking them to take out the garbage for you but to wear a tie while they do it.
[/QUOTE]
There are a few flaws in your logic.
For one, inviting a guest to a party is not asking them to do you a favor. It’s offering to do them a favor. (Unless your parties really suck.)
For another, conditions are imposed on favors all the time. “Take the garbage out. Put it at the side of the garage, not at the end of the driveway.”
Thirdly, it’s not rude to ask people to dress up for a party. You have no right to demand it, of course, but you can always ask. If it were rude, then costume parties would be extremely rude. Yet people go to them willingly all the time. Some people see getting the costume not as drudgery but rather get real pleasure from it.
[QUOTE=Ludy]
Just so we can get some cites on the table here.
http://www.advancedetiquette.com/newsletter/october_issue.htm
On etiquette tips for writing invitations.
http://www.announcingit.com/main/mailing_etiquette.asp
http://homegarden.expertvillage.com/experts/invitation-etiquette.htm
Would you like more?
[/QUOTE]
You’ve quoted several opinions that I disagree with. 
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Well, IMO, the reason the guest is right is because the guest is the one who is being asked to do something. It makes no sense for a person to request a favor of another person, and then to impose specific conditions for how that favor should be carried out. Asking someone to dress up for a party is like asking them to take out the garbage for you but to wear a tie while they do it.
[/QUOTE]
Ah. That’s interesting, and I think we may have unearthed the root of the difference of opinion: I view the host as the one doing the favor, especially in this particular instance. I really, really want to go to the wedding. I also really, really want to go to Mexico, but couldn’t normally afford to. This opportunity, this invitation to join my brother for the weekend in a cool place in a hotel I’d never be able to afford, is something the hosts (her parents are officially the hosts) are giving ME. They honestly couldn’t care less if I’m there, I suppose - not knowing me at all.
When I’m invited to a party, any party, I feel like being a guest is an honor - of all the people the host knows, I feel blessed to be thought worthy of inclusion! I immediately want to know what I can do, bring, or take care of in order to repay the host for the time and effort that goes into throwing a party and take a little of the stress off their shoulders. If they really insist on me bringing and doing nothing, then I give them a small hostess gift for their own personal use as thanks for the trouble they went to so that I can have a good time.
I’ve thrown parties and I’ve been to parties, and throwing them is never as fun as going to them.
ETA: In this case, the answer to the “what can I do/bring” question is on the invite, so I don’t have to ask: I can bring cocktail appropriate clothing (a dress, in my case) and wear it, so we all “match”, dress wise.
On Preview: Or, what they said. That’s what I get for re-writing to get everything in!
[QUOTE=tdn]
There are a few flaws in your logic.
For one, inviting a guest to a party is not asking them to do you a favor. It’s offering to do them a favor. (Unless your parties really suck.)
For another, conditions are imposed on favors all the time. “Take the garbage out. Put it at the side of the garage, not at the end of the driveway.”
[/quote]
Not everybody likes going to parties. I never have, and I think weddings are even worse. I really, REALLY dislike going to weddings. I see them as a chore and will only do it for close family members or very close friends. From my perspective, I’m already putting myself out enough just by showing up. I’ll be damned if I’m going to buy a suit on top of that.
The last wedding I went to was as the Best Man for my brother. He wanted me to rent a tux. I wouldn’t have done it for anyone but my brother but I did it. He was the last of mine and my wife’s siblings to get married. Hopefully that will be the last wedding I ever have to go to unless and until my daughters get married. I dread those dates like poison when I get those invitations. Maybe I have a pathology.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Not everybody likes going to parties.
[/QUOTE]
Yep, we’ve finally gotten to the root of it. And it only took us seven pages!
The thing is, just because you don’t like going doesn’t mean that you can treat it like a chore. It’s still someone doing you a favor, so you need to treat it in that way. It just happens to be a favor that you loathe.
I’m sort of the same way, though I’m trying to change that. And I recognize that it’s their hospitality, therefore their rules. If one of their rules is no smoking in their house, then I’m not going to smoke just because I’m doing them a big favor by showing up and eating their food.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The host has no right to decide what kind of dress is “appropriate.” The guest is always right.
[/QUOTE]
Are you my friend and guest, or my customer? Doesn’t matter, you’d be wrong in either circumstance.
I’m not really interested in friends who think they are “always right” in my house, and I bet you aren’t either. Once in a while, I’m forced to put up with someone who comes in my house spewing racist or homophobic nonsense (rarely, but a few relatives over the years). I strive to make my guests comfortable. I also strive to not have as guests people who do not try to make me comfortable as a host.
If you are “doing me a favor” showing up at my wedding or party, do me a favor and don’t. We will both be much happier people.
I agree- I’m having a lot of trouble understanding why D thinks an invitation is a such burden and his company at an event is such a gift.
(adjusting guest list)